Not sure who "you guys" are. The only thing I ever challenged was your analogy.I think the problem here is that you guys are stuck on the fact you believe I said Jesus died for the whole world...
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Not sure who "you guys" are. The only thing I ever challenged was your analogy.I think the problem here is that you guys are stuck on the fact you believe I said Jesus died for the whole world...
Do you understand what a straw man is? It is a type of fallacious argument. I did not call you a strawman.You attacked me by calling me a strawman...
Go back and read my post. I did not call or label you an Arminian. Again, you need to calm down.You attacked me by calling me an Arminian. Might as well call me a Mormon, I see no difference.
Do you see the irony here? I hope so. You accuse me, falsely, of calling you names, and here you are actually calling me a weak and feeble-minded troll.And you are right, I am called as a street preacher with courage, not a weak feeble minded internet troll who argues for the sake of argument.
Personally, I suspect that Christ's death "bought" the whole world in the same way that the one who wanted hidden treasure bought the whole field that contained it.
Christ "bought" the world, but he only SAVES His elect people out of the world.
This is a fallacious analogy as well. If Christ bought the world, then His blood purchased the world. He didn't purchase the world with His blood only to save a part. That is an attack upon the blood of Christ. Sean's argument is that world is defined as all people everywhere in all times. But John 3:16 as well as the rest of the Gospel of John, the epistles of John and add in there Romans declares that sometimes world isn't everyone. Even the OT does the same, showing forth that world is defined, by the context in those situations, as Gentiles.Here is a great analogy of what I was trying to relay, I must have missed this post.
John 3:16 the word Kosmos meaning the entire world is the word used here. The context In my prespective of what I thought it meant was that God has a unconditinal love towards the world (His creation) but does not mean that God loves the whole world in the context of saving it.This is a fallacious analogy as well. If Christ bought the world, then His blood purchased the world. He didn't purchase the world with His blood only to save a part. That is an attack upon the blood of Christ. Sean's argument is that world is defined as all people everywhere in all times. But John 3:16 as well as the rest of the Gospel of John, the epistles of John and add in there Romans declares that sometimes world isn't everyone. Even the OT does the same, showing forth that world is defined, by the context in those situations, as Gentiles.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God so loved the world
He gave His only begotten Son -- for those whom God so loved -- the world
World is defined again -- whosoever believeth in him
World -- will not perish but have everlasting life
Jesus in fact died and atoned for the sins of the world (as defined in the context of Christ's atonement).
This is a fallacious analogy as well. If Christ bought the world, then His blood purchased the world. He didn't purchase the world with His blood only to save a part. That is an attack upon the blood of Christ. Sean's argument is that world is defined as all people everywhere in all times. But John 3:16 as well as the rest of the Gospel of John, the epistles of John and add in there Romans declares that sometimes world isn't everyone. Even the OT does the same, showing forth that world is defined, by the context in those situations, as Gentiles.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God so loved the world
He gave His only begotten Son -- for those whom God so loved -- the world
World is defined again -- whosoever believeth in him
World -- will not perish but have everlasting life
Jesus in fact died and atoned for the sins of the world (as defined in the context of Christ's atonement).
Definitions. World in Scripture by the context cannot always mean "the entire world as in all people everywhere at all times" or "the physical earth".John 3:16 the word Kosmos meaning the entire world is the word used here. The context In my prespective of what I thought it meant was that God has a unconditinal love towards the world (His creation) but does not mean that God loves the whole world in the context of saving it.
I see you also agree Christ died and atoned for the Sin of the world, so my question for you would be where am I going wrong? Or is it my analogies?
What?I think it is more Biblically accurate to say that His death paid temporarily for the sins of the world (all people of all times - retroactive to the Fall, proactive until the judgment - 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2), while his blood fully and eternally atoned for the elect (too many verses to quote).
This is a fallacious analogy as well. If Christ bought the world, then His blood purchased the world. He didn't purchase the world with His blood only to save a part. That is an attack upon the blood of Christ.
I think what you mean here is that God has mercy on us that he doesn't destroy us right here and now. This however, has nothing to do with being saved.I think it is more Biblically accurate to say that His death paid temporarily for the sins of the world (all people of all times - retroactive to the Fall, proactive until the Final judgment - 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2), while his blood fully and eternally atoned for the elect (too many verses to quote).
Why? The Bible seems to teach it. What Biblical principle does it violate for Christ's death to have this dual effect?What?
No, never. Temporarily paid for the sins of the world? Where is this in Scripture? There is none that supports temporarily paying for sins. This is completely wrong, and a great danger to believe this.
Hence why I say the atonement was sufficient for them but not offered to them.But Christ did (in some way) "buy" the unbeliever as well as the believer.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
I can't see any way to interpret this passage other than that Christ did in some way "buy" even these false prophets and false teachers.
We have to deal with that.
Really? Instant and total judgment vs a delay in experiencing the unmitigated wrath of God? I'd say that is something to be saved from, temporarily or, even better, eternally.I think what you mean here is that God has mercy on us that he doesn't destroy us right here and now. This however, has nothing to do with being saved.
I don't believe "Lord" (δεσποτης in the Greek; better translated "Master") refers to Christ. Here is John Gill's handling of the text:But Christ did (in some way) "buy" the unbeliever as well as the believer.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
Where is the biblical evidence for this? I ask because it seems foreign to me. Thanks!He temporarily propitiated the sins of the whole world, in order to put off final judgment so that the fulness of the eternal covenant would play out.
This is good exposition from Johnny Gill the baptist.I don't believe "Lord" (δεσποτης in the Greek; better translated "Master") refers to Christ. Here is John Gill's handling of the text:
...even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the father; for the word κνριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Tim. 2:21; Rev. 6:10 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20 and 7:23; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19; Rev. 5:9 whereas here is not the least hint of any thing of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ’s purchase would be in vain, and the ransom-price be paid for nought; but the word bought regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord.—John Gill, Exposition of the New Testament, 2 Peter 2:1; italics original.
If I remember correctly, Owen in his Hebrews commentary argues that a better translation of this verse would be "wherewith it was sanctified," referring I think to the covenant, not the apostate.Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
There's a similar verse. There will always be those members of the visible church claiming that Christ has bought them, but their teaching damnable heresies shows that they really never were bought by the blood of Christ.
Lol This made my day!You attacked me by calling me a strawman, I can assure you that I am not man of straw and that I lift weights daily to stay in shape and the likes of you could never stop me.
Hey! As you can see, I am once again bringing up topics that are easy to understand, reconcile and leads to harmony and loveWow! This is a blast from the past. Welcome back JD.
I believe it is good and necessary consequence in light of 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2, to name a few.Where is the biblical evidence for this? I ask because it seems foreign to me. Thanks!
Why? The Bible seems to teach it. What Biblical principle does it violate for Christ's death to have this dual effect?
I was making a joke trying to be funny.Lol This made my day!
Look up straw man in the dictionary, brother.
And please just relax. This is a friendly conversation. Nothing to get worked up about.
Yeah, I actually read this as I was formulating my thoughts. However, Jesus Christ is the only "divine buyer" I know of in redemptive history.I don't believe "Lord" (δεσποτης in the Greek; better translated "Master") refers to Christ. Here is John Gill's handling of the text:
...even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the father; for the word κνριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Tim. 2:21; Rev. 6:10 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20 and 7:23; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19; Rev. 5:9 whereas here is not the least hint of any thing of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ’s purchase would be in vain, and the ransom-price be paid for nought; but the word bought regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord.—John Gill, Exposition of the New Testament, 2 Peter 2:1; italics original.
Bad and ill-timed joke.I was making a joke trying to be funny.
You recognize, of course, that this is begging the question, because this assertion assumes that 2 Peter 2:1 is speaking of Christ, which is the very point of debate.Yeah, I actually read this as I was formulating my thoughts. However, Jesus Christ is the only "divine buyer" I know of in redemptive history.
Show me in Scripture where the Father bought or buys anything to substantiate that, please. My whole premise (and I believe a key principle of the eternal Covenant of Grace) is that Christ procures from the Father as it relates to Mankind. That is the divine economy.You recognize, of course, that this is begging the question, because this assertion assumes that 2 Peter 2:1 is speaking of Christ, which is the very point of debate.
Well, it seems to me 2 Peter 2:1, as John Gill shows above based on the vocabulary used in the verse, is one. Can you demonstrate that Gill is wrong?Show me in Scripture where the Father bought or buys anything to substantiate that, please. My whole premise (and I believe a key principle of the eternal Covenant of Grace) is that Christ procures from the Father as it relates to Mankind. That is the divine economy.
You really don't think that is referring to Christ? What/who is the Father buying them from? What currency is He using?Well, it seems to me 2 Peter 2:1, as John Gill shows above based on the vocabulary used in the verse, is one. Can you demonstrate that Gill is wrong?
As for passages which describe the Father purchasing something, Exodus 15:16 and Psalm 74:2 are quite explicit examples.
You asked me to provide some Scripture references, and I did. Would you kindly deal with the matter directly at hand, which is 2 Peter 2:1? Because, again, you are begging the question. Can you deal with Gill’s argument?You really don't think that is referring to Christ? What/who is the Father buying them from? What currency is He using?