Should we forgive those who do not repent?

Should we forgive those who do not repent?

  • Yes

    Votes: 46 64.8%

  • No

    Votes: 18 25.4%

  • Other

    Votes: 7 9.9%
  • Total voters
    71
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Just because you don't forgive someone doesn't mean you have to harbor anger or a grudge. I believe if we have a willingness to forgive and a love for a person, there won't be anger/grudge. If we are forgiving people, although they don't repent, in order that we don't act or feel a certain way; I think we may be missing the point.
 
You can love a person who has hurt you without forgiving them? I think it's time you give us your definition (or definitions) of forgiveness Andrew. You're working hard to maintain a certain definition of forgiveness but I'm not able to figure out what it is. :think:
 
Definition of forgiveness...?

Quite honestly for OUR defintion of forgiveness that is actually practical to our life, I don't think you can use Jesus' crucifixion for an example for US! Why? Because He isn't being crucified right now. And the reason people sin now is not because they don't know what they are doing.

Romans 1 is clear that EVERY SINGLE person knows God and they know God's law and that breaking that law is punishable by death.

So in an example, someone sins (they break God's law)...they are punishable by death because of that sin. Now if God doesn't forgive that person, why am I forgiving that person? I'm not, they are going to be condemned of that sin by God...if I forgive them it is as if I look and view them as a repentant sinner, a Christian. If we don't forgive then they are viewed in a person's sight (just like God) as an unrepentant sinner in need of saving.

It seems that most verses like 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors' is somewhat of a parallel. HERE WE ARE LORD, FORGIVE US (REPENTING) just as we forgive the people who sin against us (who are repentant).

Luke 17 says, "3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Matthew 18:32 - Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
 
About two years ago a close family member of mine (who is not a Christian) did something that involved one of my daughters…she was 5 years old at the time. My daughter came and told my wife and I about the incident. To this day, not only is this person unrepentant, but still claims that nothing ever happened. This family member insists that what our daughter told us is false.

To be very honest, even after two years I am still struggling with forgiving this person. How can you forgive someone who to this day claims that their offense is a lie?

Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing?

Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?
 
Greg said:
Since the incident happened, we have not spoken to one another. All communication has been severed. Does forgiveness entail resuming contact with someone who will not even admit his wrong doing?

Also, how for does forgiveness go? As long as this person maintains the position that this whole thing was fabricated, do I ever let this person back into my immediate family life with my wife and children?
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Greg,

From what everyone has been saying, even those who disagree with each other on certain aspects of the question, I don't think anyone would say that forgiveness need at all entail resuming contact with this person and letting them back into close fellowship with your immediate family.
 
BobVigneault said:
Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.

Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
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These verses do not indicate whether the forgiveness is conditional or unconditional. E.g., Matt, 6 continues:

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
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It could be read as saying that if a person comes seeking forgiveness you are obligated to forgive them just as your heavenly Father has forgiven you in Christ. But Christ does not forgive the unrepentant of their sins, otherwise we are left with a sort of universalism.

There must be a genuine expression of repentance on the part of the offender in order for forgiveness and reconciliation to be obtained (the two go together).

"But didn't Jesus pray for His persecutors?" Yes. "Didn't He ask His Father to 'forgive them'?" Yes. "Did He?" Yes. "When? How?" Some were forgiven on the Day of Pentecost as the result of Peter's sermon; but not apart from conviction of sin (cf. Acts 2:37), and not apart from the message of salvation." They had to repent and believe the gospel. Forgiveness came to them as the result of the atonement; not apart from it. These facts must be borne in mind by Christian counselors at all times when counseling." (Jay Adams, The Basis for Forgiveness)
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It's always fun until someone gets hurt.

These ivory tower debates and discussions are profitable and fun. Of course when you must quickly turn to the practical application of theology to a real life tragedy, then the fun quickly dissipates.

Greg, as I have been discussing this issue I have had a very similar situation in the forefront of my attention. There is a fellow who has hurt one of my daughters and our family deeply. This is an ongoing tragedy. I have threatened, in public, to kill him. The police told me I can't do that. I say that to give you an indication of my emotional investment. Even now I HOPE he suffers in some way for what he's done.

Obviously I can't live with an attitude of wanting to kill this guy. That is sin against our Father and it would consume me. I would be an ineffective husband, dad and witness if I let my anger dominate me. So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness only happens in prayer to the Father. No one else has to know. I accept that all sins will be punished in hell or on the cross. I release my need for vengeance to God who is my avenger. This forgiveness frees me to be Christian in my conduct. It is based on trust in God and on His forgiving me, an undeserving sinner. In prayer I have even asked that God be glorified in saving this wretch that has destroyed so much. I don't want this guy to win the lottery but I would delight in seeing God exalted in his salvation.

On the other hand, the fellow has not repented (he's not a believer) and continues to provoke me. I will not offer him my hand in fellowship, I will not have contact with him. I know my limitations and I won't tempt myself. So in light of the Luke 17 passage I do not owe him forgiveness. I must hold out that he might one day burn with guilt and God will grant him repentance. If and when he does this, then I owe him public forgiveness. I will forgive him his debt because great was the debt my Father forgave me.

I believe this response would apply to your situation.
 
BobVigneault said:
You can love a person who has hurt you without forgiving them? I think it's time you give us your definition (or definitions) of forgiveness Andrew. You're working hard to maintain a certain definition of forgiveness but I'm not able to figure out what it is. :think:
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Love and forgiveness are two different things. This is true with God as well as with men.

I can love my enemy even when he does horrible things to me. If he murders one of my children I can love him as I should by God's command and example. But there is no obligation to forgive him of his action until he repents and sincerely seeks that forgiveness.

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.
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Is not God's forgiveness of us conditioned on our action? It is a demonstration of repentance that is required, both between God and men as well as men to one another.

One other thing, Jay Adams says regarding "forgiving and forgetting":

You promise not to remember his sin by bringing it up to him, to others, or to yourself. The sin is buried.
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This can only be accomplished if the person has come to seek forgiveness, otherwise you are obligated to bring the matter to that person until they repent and do the right thing. Then, once that is done, you do not bring the matter up again.
 
Tom, I listed those verses only to stimulate a debate. I wasn't trying to build an argument at that point in the thread. I was just throwing out some verses that needed to be synthesized and systematized.

Read further in the thread to where David and I reached agreement that there are at least two different kinds of forgiveness.
 
BobVigneault said:
Tom, I listed those verses only to stimulate a debate. I wasn't trying to build an argument at that point in the thread. I was just throwing out some verses that needed to be synthesized and systematized.

Read further in the thread to where David and I reached agreement that there are at least two different kinds of forgiveness.
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With all due respect, if I'm reading this correctly I think you have switched terms, and muddled the situation. I think you are confusing love and forgiveness.

You said:

BobVigneault said:
So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness only happens in prayer to the Father. No one else has to know.
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(Matt 14??, did you mean Luke 17?)

There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness, or “forgiveness in your heart”, or secret forgiveness in the Bible (except insofar as forgiveness is to be sincere and comes from a heart turned to Christ).

I don’t have to secretly forgive someone who has harmed me without repentance. I can and must love them, which I should, but I must continue to enjoin them to seek forgiveness for their offense. And when they do I must sincerely grant that forgiveness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
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There must be a genuine expression of repentance on the part of the offender in order for forgiveness and reconciliation to be obtained (the two go together).
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I agree, where the two can be obtained, but reconcilitaiton will not always be obtained, and yet we are still told to forgive.


And I don't believe I must continue to bring up their sin against me, to them UNTIL they repent, if I forgive them, then I forgive them, whether they are repentant or not.

Even if a person sins against me, their sin against me is no ways near as great towards me, as it is against God.

Their repentance is left between them and God, doesn't scripture also tell us something to the effect that when we are nice to those who have sinned against us, it's like heaping hot coals on their heads?

When we forgive, even when they are unrepentant, the burden of guilt stays with them, it doesn't mean we must reconcile with them, it just means we recognize their burden of guilt is ulitmately between them and God, and not against us.

Is it to me to continually point sin out to a person, if I have confronted them already? Scripture tells us to go one on one first, then take two or three witnesses, then take it to the church, and if they still refuse to repent we are to treat them as a publican and tax collector. So how do we treat sinners?

Do we treat them rudely, ignoring them, continually telling them what sinners they are or do we show them the Love of Christ by our actions towards them being respectful?

Christ showed forgiveness even before people repented; did He not die on the cross for us before we were even born? Did He not offer us forgiveness before we were ever born? Granted He knew we would be born but He also knew we would need to be forgiven--so He provided the forgiveness before we were born. So it seems to me, forgiveness actually came first.
 
BobVigneault said:
It's always fun until someone gets hurt.

These ivory tower debates and discussions are profitable and fun. Of course when you must quickly turn to the practical application of theology to a real life tragedy, then the fun quickly dissipates.

Greg, as I have been discussing this issue I have had a very similar situation in the forefront of my attention. There is a fellow who has hurt one of my daughters and our family deeply. This is an ongoing tragedy. I have threatened, in public, to kill him. The police told me I can't do that. I say that to give you an indication of my emotional investment. Even now I HOPE he suffers in some way for what he's done.

Obviously I can't live with an attitude of wanting to kill this guy. That is sin against our Father and it would consume me. I would be an ineffective husband, dad and witness if I let my anger dominate me. So I must, as Matt 14 says, forgive this fellow. This forgiveness only happens in prayer to the Father. No one else has to know. I accept that all sins will be punished in hell or on the cross. I release my need for vengeance to God who is my avenger. This forgiveness frees me to be Christian in my conduct. It is based on trust in God and on His forgiving me, an undeserving sinner. In prayer I have even asked that God be glorified in saving this wretch that has destroyed so much. I don't want this guy to win the lottery but I would delight in seeing God exalted in his salvation.

On the other hand, the fellow has not repented (he's not a believer) and continues to provoke me. I will not offer him my hand in fellowship, I will not have contact with him. I know my limitations and I won't tempt myself. So in light of the Luke 17 passage I do not owe him forgiveness. I must hold out that he might one day burn with guilt and God will grant him repentance. If and when he does this, then I owe him public forgiveness. I will forgive him his debt because great was the debt my Father forgave me.

I believe this response would apply to your situation.
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Yes it does. Thank you Bob.
 
Two People, two of Forgiveness'

Looking at the Scripture involved, the real life (and hyper-evil) examples given and the effects that have results in the spirits who have had the atrocities done to them within the household, the freedom for the believer is found in forgiving the person.

Almost evidently, this can only happen in a) a deluded mind or b) a miracle (by definition an extra human ability) of God's work in a spirit so heavily tresgressed. This would apply to any transgression but is most marked in the so-evil examples given. (My parenthesis is to show our helplessness in true forgiveness and the need for God's power to do so.)

My Biblical advice is pray and pray and pray and pray until you are reconcilled with God. At that point you will have become like Him: Love.

The man who did the transgression may never experience the befriending between you and God which is a terrible terrible thing.

Once that reconcilliation has happens between you and God, you can then befriend the transgressor which out judgment ever again. That is Freedom.
He may never understand that freedom which again, is a terrible thing.

If you can confess you have forgiven him (with fruits) the transgressor may see God in Man for the first time ever in his life with a miracle in his soul as well. This would happen because of an attraction to the heart of Jesus rather living in the terror of deserved punishment for commiting the infraction against God and Man. He knows He deserved Death.

We are the man.
 
Some clarification from our Confession...

WCF Chapter 15. Of Repentance unto Life.
1. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,a the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.b

a. Zec 12:10; Acts 11:18. • b. Luke 24:47; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21.

2. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for and hates his sins as to turn from them all unto God,a purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.b

a. Psa 51:4; 119:128; Isa 30:22; Jer 31:18-19; Ezek 18:30-31; 36:31; Joel 2:12-13; Amos 5:15; 2 Cor 7:11. • b. 2 Kings 23:25; Psa 119:6, 59, 106; Luke 1:6.

3. Although repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,a which is the act of God's free grace in Christ;b yet is it of such necessity to all sinners that none may expect pardon without it.c

a. Ezek 16:61-63; 36:31-32. • b. Hosea 14:2, 4; Rom 3:24; Eph 1:7. • c. Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 17:30-31.

4. As there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation,a so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.b

a. Mat 12:36; Rom 5:12; 6:23. • b. Isa 1:16, 18; 55:7; Rom 8:1.

5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins particularly.a

a. Psa 19:13; Luke 19:8; 1 Tim 1:13, 15.

6. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof,a upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;b so he that scandalizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended,c who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him.d

a. Psa 32:5-6; 51:4-5, 7, 9, 14. • b. Prov 28:13; 1 John 1:9. • c. Psa 51 throughout; Josh 7:19; Luke 17:3-4; James 5:16. • d. 2 Cor 2:8.
 
Romans922 said:
Should we?
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Yes -- for if Matthew 18 guides our understanding of our own transgressions, we know that the Judge who paid for our sins requires us to forgives as evidence of our understanding and dependance on His forgiveness of the great debt we accumulated against Him – nothing done to us compares to what we have done to Him.
 
Forgiveness is REALLY hard to do. Remember when Jesus asked, "Which is more difficult, to heal disease or forgive sin?" (Mk. 2:9). ? If its hard to forgive, then it is hard to love another because LOVE forgives. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him".

Forgiveness Quotes
The degree to which I am able and willing to forgive others is a clear indication of the extent to which I have personally experienced God my Father’s forgiveness for me. The corollary to this is that anyone who is not willing to forgive another has certainly not known God’s loving forgiveness. Philipp Keller

Whenever I see myself before God and realize something of what my blessed Lord has done for me at Calvary, I am ready to forgive anybody anything. I cannot withhold it. I do not even want to withhold it. Martin Lloyd-Jones

The best testimony that Stephen bore was his last: not when preaching and working miracles, but when he pleaded for his persecutors; for then he most resembled the Lord Jesus in patience, forgiveness and love. Robert C. Chapman

The wisdom of God has ordained a way for the love of God to deliver us from the wrath of God without compromising the justice of God. John Piper

God has cast our confessed sins into the depths of the sea, and He's even put a "no fishing" sign over the spot. Dwight L. Moody

When a Christian shuns fellowship with other Christians, the devil smiles. When he stops studying the Bible, the devil laughs. When he stops praying, the devil shouts for joy. Corrie ten Boom
 
I understand what you are saying. Keep in mind that God died for everyone however His atonement is for those who are elected (saved).

Relationship restoration requires repentance to God FIRST and come to the offending person for the restoration. Forgiveness have already completed, now the both parties are to focus on restoration. It takes same two people to restore a relationship of two people. Not one. Just as God forgave us. But in order to restore our relationship with God from eternal death, we are to repent and acknowledge God and Jesus so that we can have eternal life. God ALREADY FORGAVE..... now He is WAITING for those to REPENT so that the relationship can be RESTORED between two people. God and the Believer.

When a person unwilling to accept God's forgiveness making a choice to hold on to "sin". People choose sin while God choose us. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience.
 
You are discussing forgiveness on two different levels. My answer is that what God does for us in forgiving is not quite the same as how we are to treat those who trespass against us - which was the point of the original post.

His Holy Spirit works repentance in us so that we do seek His forgiveness – that spirit is the only one that will work with those who have wronged us.

With respect, I disagree that the servant showed repentance – he never acknowledged his wrong, or asked for forgiveness – he asked, pleaded, for time to make things right.
 
CarolinaCalvinist said:
It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repentant I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.
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Would you go to them and speak to them of your grievance?
 
bwsmith said:
You are discussing forgiveness on two different levels. My answer is that what God does for us in forgiving is not quite the same as how we are to treat those who trespass against us - which was the point of the original post.
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Why is our forgiveness supposed to be different than God's? Does the bible teach this? How are we showing people the character of God if our actions are qualitatively other than his? Are you saying that we can keep ourselves from holding grudges against people who have offended us without actually forgiving them? I could accept that sort of distinction, but I wouldn't call it a different kind of forgivenss. I would just say we aren't holding grudges.
 
CarolinaCalvinist said:
Why is our forgiveness supposed to be different than God's? Does the bible teach this? How are we showing people the character of God if our actions are qualitatively other than his? Are you saying that we can keep ourselves from holding grudges against people who have offended us without actually forgiving them? I could accept that sort of distinction, but I wouldn't call it a different kind of forgivenss. I would just say we aren't holding grudges.
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We are to imitate God in forgiving others – but only His forgiveness can redeem sinners – or restore warring people to their right minds. It is my humble experience in the church that we do not imitate God.
 
God forgives in such a way that transforms people – our forgiveness may clear the air, no small feat, but it doesn’t redeem a sinner.

The servants actions showed he was not repentant – when I said make things right – I mean – repay the money – (Matthew 18:26) He did not show the compassion over a minuscule debt he had been shown over an enormous debt – one that he could never have repaid.

That Christians can forgive is we come to know that no offense we suffer is comparable to the debt we owe God.
 
I don't see your distinction. Of course our forgiveness doesn't actually absolve anyone of their sins, but our forgiveness is still similar to God's. When God forgives people, he reconciles them to himself. When we forgive people, we are being reconciled with them. When the Church forgives someone, they are reconciled to the congregation. When someone refuses to repent, they are not forgiven by the congregation - they are excommunicated. The same goes for unrepentant sinners before God. He doesn't forgive those who don't repent - he "excommunicates" them eternally.
 
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