clstamper
Puritan Board Freshman
7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
Huh?
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7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
Huh?
The reason I struggle with Theonomy is because theonomists themselves cannot seem to agree on which laws are binding today. Who gets to decide if shaving is illegal? I don't see how theonomy can be God's Will for us today simply because it seems to be impossibly impractical.
7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
Huh?
Better idea than declaring bankruptcy at taxpayers' expense. Or, if the crime isn't a capital one, it beats going to prison where they might get sodomized at taxpayers' expense. It also allows people there dignity to work instead of rotting in a jail cell for 25 years.
I had no intention of bringing Bahnsen into this discussion as a person. Perhaps it would have been better to just stick to the real question, "What does the theonomist do with laws such as these?"
The reason I struggle with Theonomy is because theonomists themselves cannot seem to agree on which laws are binding today. If Jacob and Morecraft and Weaver and Einwechter etc. were elected into public office, how would they agree on which of the OT laws would be placed on the American people? Who gets to decide if shaving is illegal? I don't see how theonomy can be God's Will for us today simply because it seems to be impossibly impractical.
Whether it is practical or not in no way affects the truth-value of the proposition. Christ told me to be perfect. That's impossible. Therefore, it is not true. If I were elected--perish the thought!--what would I do? (in no particular order)
1) Ban abortion
2) Ban Sodomy
3) Ban Income tax
4) Get rid of most Federal departments.
5) Call the military home so they can defend America in case of invasion.
6) Get the Federal Government out of the lives of Americans.
7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
8) Ban pop culture music because it is terrible
Huh?
Better idea than declaring bankruptcy at taxpayers' expense. Or, if the crime isn't a capital one, it beats going to prison where they might get sodomized at taxpayers' expense. It also allows people there dignity to work instead of rotting in a jail cell for 25 years.
Oh, my. I thought you were kidding. Guess not.
Indentured servitude is oppression of the poor and contrary to the moral law. It violates our constitutional liberties are free citizens. It is worse than slavery because even slaves were treated as part of the master's household.
Bankruptcy laws are not theft. They are a corrective measure against usury and loan speculation -- and they allow the poor to rebuild their lives with minimal government intrusion.
I had no intention of bringing Bahnsen into this discussion as a person. Perhaps it would have been better to just stick to the real question, "What does the theonomist do with laws such as these?"
The reason I struggle with Theonomy is because theonomists themselves cannot seem to agree on which laws are binding today. If Jacob and Morecraft and Weaver and Einwechter etc. were elected into public office, how would they agree on which of the OT laws would be placed on the American people? Who gets to decide if shaving is illegal? I don't see how theonomy can be God's Will for us today simply because it seems to be impossibly impractical.
Whether it is practical or not in no way affects the truth-value of the proposition. Christ told me to be perfect. That's impossible. Therefore, it is not true. If I were elected--perish the thought!--what would I do? (in no particular order)
1) Ban abortion
2) Ban Sodomy
3) Ban Income tax
4) Get rid of most Federal departments.
5) Call the military home so they can defend America in case of invasion.
6) Get the Federal Government out of the lives of Americans.
7) Reinstate indentured servitude.
8) Ban pop culture music because it is terrible
You have my vote for president!
Believe me if onr of you Reconstructionists discovered a new country and established your own theonomic government, I would move there in a heart-beat. But I still think my question is relevent. Who gets to decide which OT laws would be binding? It seems to me that men would have to get together and hash it out and compromise and vote and argue etc. How is that any different than what the writers of our Constitution did?
Could the moderators please confirm that describing other Reformed people as "leaglists" and "Pharisees" is persona non gratia.
Many commentators consider the slavery laws of the OT to be indentured servitude laws. If so, then you have just said that God's civil law contradicts his moral law.
Many commentators consider the slavery laws of the OT to be indentured servitude laws. If so, then you have just said that God's civil law contradicts his moral law.
You can't just port Moses into the United States. It doesn't translate. Even if we put the covenantal issues aside, we are a completely different people, in another time, in a industrialized society, with our own culture. Bringing back indentured servitude for the reason you mention is cruelty.
We are not ancient Israel. The code is just, but it expired and it was never meant for us. The Gospel call was not to rebuild the Temple, but to invade the Roman Empire. We are the children of that campaign.
Believe me if one of you Reconstructionists discovered a new country and established your own theonomic government, I would move there in a heart-beat.
Nice! The prison system as is solves no problems long term. It is gulag and barbaric and frankly....creates worse criminals..Many commentators consider the slavery laws of the OT to be indentured servitude laws. If so, then you have just said that God's civil law contradicts his moral law.
You can't just port Moses into the United States. It doesn't translate. Even if we put the covenantal issues aside, we are a completely different people, in another time, in a industrialized society, with our own culture. Bringing back indentured servitude for the reason you mention is cruelty.
We are not ancient Israel. The code is just, but it expired and it was never meant for us. The Gospel call was not to rebuild the Temple, but to invade the Roman Empire. We are the children of that campaign.
So, do you think it better for a man to rot away for 25 years, possibly getting traumatized (to put it mildly) forever, instead of treating him like a man and working off to pay for his crimes?
The prison system by definition makes the victim pay twice: once for the crime and continually afterwards in sustaining the criminal.
Btw, a code cannot be "just" and only limited to one people.
The prison system as is solves no problems long term. It is gulag and barbaric and fankly....creates worse criminals..
Bringing back indentured servitude for the reason you mention is cruelty.
Believe me if one of you Reconstructionists discovered a new country and established your own theonomic government, I would move there in a heart-beat.
This brings up an interesting point: no theonomic Christian society has ever existed and I doubt one ever will. The code was time-bound as it was never intended to be permanent. People would (and do) try to come up with all sorts of typologies to make Moses fit industrial society. It would be like the writing of the Talmud all over again. And since the state has no teaching authority, textual disputes would be inherently irreconcilable.
The prison system as is solves no problems long term. It is gulag and barbaric and fankly....creates worse criminals..
Prisons should sequester violent and anti-social criminals from society. I agree that the American's prison are barbaric, but I don't see that as an argument against prisons themselves.
Believe me if one of you Reconstructionists discovered a new country and established your own theonomic government, I would move there in a heart-beat.
This brings up an interesting point: no theonomic Christian society has ever existed and I doubt one ever will. The code was time-bound as it was never intended to be permanent. People would (and do) try to come up with all sorts of typologies to make Moses fit industrial society. It would be like the writing of the Talmud all over again. And since the state has no teaching authority, textual disputes would be inherently irreconcilable.
This is exactly my concern about Theonomy. Why hasn't it been used before? Do theonomists consider our founding fathers to be theonomists?
Btw, a code cannot be "just" and only limited to one people.
The laws of Puritan Board only apply to one people (us) and are not a universal code of human rights. Yet that is not relativism.
Likewise, the common law is only for one set of people (we English-speaking folk). Yet our magistrates made a good faith effort to make decisions that reflected the moral law ordained by God. They were not relativists for not telling the Belgians how to live.
I want to live in a constitutional republic based on Anglo-American legal traditions. The English Puritans did too. Why is this bad?
Btw, a code cannot be "just" and only limited to one people.
The laws of Puritan Board only apply to one people (us) and are not a universal code of human rights. Yet that is not relativism.
They are more like regulations than laws. Disanalogous.
Likewise, the common law is only for one set of people (we English-speaking folk). Yet our magistrates made a good faith effort to make decisions that reflected the moral law ordained by God. They were not relativists for not telling the Belgians how to live.
I want to live in a constitutional republic based on Anglo-American legal traditions. The English Puritans did too. Why is this bad?
RJ Rushdoony wrote several books defending the Founding Fathers.
Lev 19:27:
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Shouldn't all theonomists have a beard like Rushdoony? How does the theonomist interpret such an OT law?
Don't know if Rushdoony's beard would have counted; it was neatly trimmed.
This may have been a cultural stipulation, just like greeting one another with a holy kiss was in the New Testament.
Perhaps the pagans attached some superstitious value to shaving or something.
Lev 19:27:
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Shouldn't all theonomists have a beard like Rushdoony? How does the theonomist interpret such an OT law?
I have an answer, but it calls into question the usefulness of the whole Reformed tri-partite division of the law.
Would this not be considered a case law that did in fact separate Israel (as God's people) from other nations? Today, the application has changed as society has changed, but the principle remains the same. The Church (as God's people) are to be separate from the world.
RJ Rushdoony wrote several books defending the Founding Fathers.
To borrow a Van Tillian phrase, this is a paradox. Rushdoony claimed that the old republic was based on the Ten Commandments. Then came theonomy, which didn't mesh with the previous party line. The transition was never clearly explained. I'm supposed to believe that the constitutional system is merely procedural -- and that all we need do is stir in Moses and shake well to create a Christian society.
The laws of Puritan Board only apply to one people (us) and are not a universal code of human rights. Yet that is not relativism.
Would this not be considered a case law that did in fact separate Israel (as God's people) from other nations? Today, the application has changed as society has changed, but the principle remains the same. The Church (as God's people) are to be separate from the world.
Are you saying that the only purpose of this law was to separate Israel from the Gentiles? If so then it separated them in the manner of their appearance. You say that God's people today should be seperated from the world in appearance also. Is that the 'principle' that remains the same? That our appearance should be different than the world?
Or are you trying to draw an analogy between Israel 'looking' different and the Church 'behaving' differently? If so, I've never understood this analogy because Israel was required to behave differently than the world as well.
The bottom line is, I don't see where the Bible teaches that the law of the beard was simply to make Israel look different than the Gentiles.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD."
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
We need to be sensitive to the fact that interpreting the OT law, properly categorizing its details (for example, ceremonial, standing, cultural), and making modern day applications of the authoritative standards of the OT is NOT AN EASY OR SIMPLE TASK. It is not always readily apparent to us how to understand an OT commandment or use it properly today. So the position taken here does not make everything in Christian ethics a simple matter of looking up obvious answers in a code-book. Much hard thinking - exegetical and theological homework - is entailed by a commitment to the position advocated in these studies.
The course of history changes the judicial and ceremony laws in terms of how we obey them. The course of history does not change the moral law because it is stated in such a generalized form that there isn’t anything that changes from situation to situation (thou shalt not steal etc.).
There is a different reason for the change of the judicial and ceremonial laws through the course of history. The judicial law changes its application through the course of history simply because the cases change. We don’t live in a society where we have flat roofs where we entertain people. Therefore we don’t have to have a railing around our roof. We do live in a society where people can be endangered when we don’t have a fence around our pool etc. With the change of history there are changes of illustration and a change of the judicial law. But that is not the reason for the change in the case of ceremonial laws. The accomplishment of redemption changes our observation of the ceremonial law. Christ has come fulfilling the shadows of the OT. So, don’t think the judicial law should be merged into the ceremonial law. They are not of the same ethical category. The judicial law changes because culture changes. Ceremonial law changes because of the accomplishment of redemption. The moral law doesn’t change because it’s stated in such generalized terms that there’s nothing to change.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and EVERY ONE of thy righteous judgments ENDURETH FOR EVER.