UnderAge Marriage?

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Coram Deo

Coram Deo

Puritan Board Junior
I had a conversation with a Man this week who was from Africa. This man's tribe allows for underage marriage to 8 year old girls. I find that morally sickening. But he asked me to prove from the scripture how it would be morally wrong and not just in our culturally biased understanding..... He said he searched the scriptures from stem to stern and he can not find any limitation on underage marriage...

How would you answer this gentlemen? What scripture would you use? How would Theonomy handle this situation? I understand the whole law of the nation understanding but his tribe legally allows this.....

Any thoughts,
 
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
 
I did use the "Girl hasn't matured physically" reason.... But he was looking for scripture.... As he said the bible speaks about immoral sexual sins and punishments for them.. Bestiality, rape, adultery, divorce, sodomy, incest, Necrophilia, Whoredom, etc.... But where is the law against taking a wife from a underage, underdeveloped girl......

Another question, How young is to young?



Spear Dane said:
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
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Women menstruate at 10 in the US.... a pure physical reason won't fly.


I know of many groups here that buy their wives as soon as they grow breasts and menstruate. Most wait until there is proof she knows how to cook.


As far as moral disgust goes, we in the West wait so stinking long that I read the average man has 7 sex partners in his life and the average woman 4.

Probably at least some of these partners might be due to the difficulty of being ready for "it" but having your culture tell you that you need to finish another 4 years of college before you are ready to marry.


The Jews had a Bar Mitzah and a somethingfor girls right? Some sort of ritualized entrance into adulthood. It would seem that one would need to enter into adulthood according to that people before marriage could be seen as legit. That COULD happen much younger than the West is willing to concede.
 
yes. there is something to be said for "commen sense" here. there is no reason to marry someone who is 8. they are not physically or emotionally/mentally, etc. ready to be married.

it says nothing in the Bible, verbatim, about not marrying an infant, yet we wouldn't say thats ok, would we?
 
You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.

What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. Why is this being done?

If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.

If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.

Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.

Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.
 
How about this:


Many arrange their marriage even while the woman is still an infant, but the actual act of marriage waits until she is ready? This happens in Asia I have read, and have heard of 2 cases myself. If one has no moral qualms against arranged marriage, then how could they object to this?
 
It may be possible to make an argument that the practice constitutes promiscuity and then Romans 13:13 could be used as a foundation.
 
Pergamum said:
Bob: I think a large part of the question is "What exactly IS "underage"', right?
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Right, but that's like asking "What is p*rn?", and as you demonstrated a couple weeks ago, it depends on the setting and culture. There is something in the Bible referred to as 'decency'. That is not a definite quantity but where would we be without decent people and a sense of decency. Taking a child bride just seems so indecent.
 
Spear Dane said:
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
 
Another consideration: A young lady (girl) is under the headship of her father until he gives her away. The giving of daughters to husbands is obviously Scriptural. It is the father's responsiblity to both find a suitable husband for the daughter and protect her by not giving her away until both she and the groom are ready. This may be waiting until she is spiritually strong enough, and trained in the matters of homekeeping. It may be when the man has shown that he is capable of supporting a wife and providing for her. I would submit that it should be all of the above. This may be when she's 14, and it may not be until she's 40.
Central to this issue is the fact that fathers must step up to the plate and assume the responsiblity that God has given them. If they are not tending to the needs of their daughters then this, and much worse, will happen (is happening).
 
You know what, when it comes to these tricky issues I'm going to start borrowing from Jefferson.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident!!!!"

If Jefferson saw it, there must be an argument somewhere. I mean, the man who invented dumbwaiters for wine bottles, the hideaway bed, macaroni and cheese, not to mention a macaroni extruding device can't be wrong, can he??? MAC AND CHEESE PEOPLE!!!!!
 
I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:

And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.

"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
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(Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)

The age for love is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.
 
So, what is the acceptable and decent and reasonable age?

Say, the average onset of puberty and menses for a people is 13-14. Is that then the acceptable lower range and the rare 10 year old that begins menses early is thus still considered not ready?

Or for a people whose neccessary life skills can all be taught by a girl's 12th birthday.If she can cook by 12 is she marriageable by 12?

Being reasonable, there must be reasons to deduce that 14 is okay but 12 is too young beyond mere subjectivity?


It seems that there are physical reasons (menses and reproducibility), cognitive reasons (ability to master the skills of the home) and social reasons (a people's definition of child and adult and at what age the initiation into adulthood is made). But the minimum age at which these factors could be fulfilled could vary from 12-14. Weird for us.
 
Ok, this is the first attempt at a scriptural argument.... Very interesting..... Sounds Plausible... Let me think on this and consider and read a few comments on it..... It makes sense..... But what is the context of the passage?

Even if this to be true, which would prevent marriage under the age of 12, but does this deal with other so-called Child-Brides between the ages of 12 and 16 that happens around the world and even in our own country out west in Utah? Is our country's morality higher then God's Standards? Most people believe that marriage under 17 is immoral yet along to a 13 year old. People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...

VirginiaHuguenot , That Calvin quote is very interesting......


py3ak said:
I think the Bible does at least lay down a norm:

And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.

"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
Click to expand...
(Ezekiel 16:6-8, ESV)

The age for love is clearly after physical maturity has been reached: not just started, but attained with "full adornment". That rules out every 8-year old I've ever known.
Click to expand...
 
thunaer said:
People are currently in Jail for having 15 year old brides...
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Where, as far as I know there is no law preventing this action. They are in jail for having sex with them, but not marrying them. Once married, you are allowed sexual relations.
 
Spear Dane said:
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
Click to expand...

:agree: The thought of an 8 year girl being married sickens and saddens me.
 
BobVigneault said:
You won't find an explicit teaching from scripture.

What you must do is to treat child brides as a symptom of something else. Why is this being done?

If the answer is the man is looking for a young girl because there is less chance she'll have aids, then we need to deal with it as an aids issue and resolve the drug or prostitution problem.

If a family is marrying off their little one to get rid of a financial burden then that is just wrong.

Let's face it, it's not for procreation or even companionship.

Underage marriage takes place where there is something that has gone wrong in a society and the problem is rooted in sin. A healthy culture would not settle for such a practice.
Click to expand...

Wisdom. Very wise question to ask.
 
Obviously when this age is attained is going to vary from climate to climate and culture to culture. What I would emphasize is the completion of maturation. Has vertical growth stopped (you became tall)? Is puberty finished (full adornment)?

Although I personally have never known an 11 or 12 year old who had arrived, I suppose it's possible. And since mental maturity is not determined by physical age, I suppose you could have someone mature enough in a psychological sense to be married at that age.
 
Not to throw a wrench into the monkeys or however that phrase goes...

1) Don't a lot of biblical scholars believe that Mary (the mother of Jesus) was probably in her young teen years (like 13-15)?

2) Didn't a lot of Western societies (like America) allow for younger girls to marry older men as late as 100 years ago when the average life expectancy was a lot shorter?

3) Doesn't it make you sick to think of someone wanting to marry a 12-year old, let alone an 8-year old?
 
It depends upon many factors. It was not uncommon for a 13yr female and 15-17yr male to marry in the US (heavens, they are still have relations outside of marriage in post modern era at these ages!). At one time it would not have been uncommon to marry a 14-16yr to a man in his mid 20's just as it wasn't uncommon for a 18-20yr to marry a man in his 30's pressing 40's at one time. Many marriages working out.

Much of this is cultural issue. In today's western world, we have tried to keep children as such well past maturity...into their 20s and 30s! Of course I have the same said issues on FORCING young men to remain in a classroom setting when they are of prime age to move on to trade school (many do not go to college, and colleges are open to people of highschool age even without a diploma...so no, that would not keep them from it). We've instead decided to determine everything by YEARS rather than by ABILITY and CAPABILITY...a very faulty premise.

Personally, no, I would not be in a hurry to marry my daughter off at a young age. However, I will state that we are doing no good to the morals of our society by keeping those capable and in need of marriage from marrying when it would do them the most good. I will have to search for the article where a gent discusses the affect of our age limit on our societies mores. I met my own husband when I was 15...and yes, we courted with the intent of marriage when I was that age.
 
Here is the post I was looking for. Read it slowly. Then ask him if this is what he wants for his daughter. Is this what you want for your daughter?

I think its an issue of maturity both physical and character. Just because an 11 year old may be biologically capable of conceiving a child doesn't mean it is healthy. Women are still growing well into late teens and sometimes early twenties. Very often, early pregnancy is dangerous and results in the death of both mother and child.

I remember watching a special on TV about a particular culture in Africa that m
arried off their women very early, and most ended up physically damaged from the first pregnancy, especially bladder damage. This resulted in incontinence, which in a society which doesn't bathe often results in smelling awful, which leads eventually to the husband sending the woman back home to the parents, who as well can deal with it.
Click to expand...

The women become outcasts. It's a horrible situation. I
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http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/different-cultural-marriage-customs-25712/#post314502
 
Me Died Blue said:
Spear Dane said:
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
Click to expand...

Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
 
I did not, not agree with you.... In fact it was a very logical argument.... But I was looking for a scriptural argument....

Just because something seems logical or by natural law seem correct sometimes does not agree with scripture.... By all means it is a powerful argument but scripture is our final arbiter of right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral... I once heard it said this way... "Where scripture is silent, we are silent and where scripture speaks, we speak."

Without the scripture we can come up with all sort of extra biblical morality for which some Christians are guilty of.. I know I have been guilty of that in the past....

I know someone who claims natural law for against drinking wine.... Saying that nature tells us it is too dangerous to attempt to drink a glass of wine.... But scripture never tell us that.. It condemns drunkenness, but not drinking wine...

So natural law is a good argument, and I have used it, but it must be backed up with scripture.....



Spear Dane said:
Me Died Blue said:
Spear Dane said:
I can think of some extra-biblical reasons why it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous). Puritan Sailor had an excellent post on this a few weeks back.

~The girl hasn't matured physically. Many of her organs would not be fully developed at least until mid-teens. Pregnancies at this age could mess her up causing other, unforseen problems.

~Or you can cop out and take the natural law approach and say it "offends right reason."
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
Click to expand...

Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
Click to expand...
 
My natural law comment was tongue in cheek. But does every ethical position have to be backed up by overt scriptural references? If so , what about forensic evidences, ovum transplants, organ transplants, giving blood, certain sexual practices within the marriage bed other than procreative intercourse, etc.?

thunaer said:
I did not, not agree with you.... In fact it was a very logical argument.... But I was looking for a scriptural argument....

Just because something seems logical or by natural law seem correct sometimes does not agree with scripture.... By all means it is a powerful argument but scripture is our final arbiter of right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral... I once heard it said this way... "Where scripture is silent, we are silent and where scripture speaks, we speak."

Without the scripture we can come up with all sort of extra biblical morality for which some Christians are guilty of.. I know I have been guilty of that in the past....

I know someone who claims natural law for against drinking wine.... Saying that nature tells us it is too dangerous to attempt to drink a glass of wine.... But scripture never tell us that.. It condemns drunkenness, but not drinking wine...

So natural law is a good argument, and I have used it, but it must be backed up with scripture.....



Spear Dane said:
Me Died Blue said:
Wouldn't the first reason you gave be itself an example of natural law?
Click to expand...

Touche. But that raises some problems. Given the irresistible compelling power of natural law, how come very few people agreed with me?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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