Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I'm a presuppositional classical evidentialist.
That is what I call having your cake and eating it.
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I'm a presuppositional classical evidentialist.
Cal the presuppositionalist would tell the unbeliever: Unless you submit to Christ's lordship, you cannot make sense of reality. The proof of the Christian God is the transcendental argument: believing in Christ provides you with the preconditions of intelligibility.
Cal the presuppositionalist would tell the unbeliever: Unless you submit to Christ's lordship, you cannot make sense of reality. The proof of the Christian God is the transcendental argument: believing in Christ provides you with the preconditions of intelligibility.
What I have been wondering lately is what distinguishes this remark from a form of evidence. To say that Christianity provides the necessary conditions for intelligibility --is that not a sort of evidence that Christianity is correspondent to reality?
Cal the presuppositionalist would tell the unbeliever: Unless you submit to Christ's lordship, you cannot make sense of reality. The proof of the Christian God is the transcendental argument: believing in Christ provides you with the preconditions of intelligibility.
What I have been wondering lately is what distinguishes this remark from a form of evidence. To say that Christianity provides the necessary conditions for intelligibility --is that not a sort of evidence that Christianity is correspondent to reality?
Short answer--yes. Long answer (and more technical)--the above worldview argument makes possible the use of evidence. In other words, so goes the argument, appealing to evidence without a worldview fails to give the evidence any meaning.
Where is Common Sense Realism?
What I have been wondering lately is what distinguishes this remark from a form of evidence. To say that Christianity provides the necessary conditions for intelligibility --is that not a sort of evidence that Christianity is correspondent to reality?
Short answer--yes. Long answer (and more technical)--the above worldview argument makes possible the use of evidence. In other words, so goes the argument, appealing to evidence without a worldview fails to give the evidence any meaning.
Spot on.
What is it you use to say to me about the use of terms? We had to agree to our terminology first and it had to be yours. Something like that.
I like Martin Luther's method - argument by assertion.
"Peter commands us to give a reason for the hope that is in us (1 Peter 3:15). And what need is there of a multitude of proofs? Nothing is more familiar or characteristic among Christians than assertion. Take away assertions, and you take away Christianity."
(The Bondage of the Will)
I like Martin Luther's method - argument by assertion.
"Peter commands us to give a reason for the hope that is in us (1 Peter 3:15). And what need is there of a multitude of proofs? Nothing is more familiar or characteristic among Christians than assertion. Take away assertions, and you take away Christianity."
(The Bondage of the Will)
Luther is using "assertion" in a different sense than is used today. Nowadays, "assertion" means setting forth a proposition/position but without proof (like much Reformed argument online). Luther is using it in a different sense.
I would put it with the classical approach of Aquinas & Anselm.Where is Common Sense Realism?
Are Clark & Hoeksema really a different type of presuppositionalist?. They seem to me to be fideists that believed nothing could be known apart from special revelation.
Are Clark & Hoeksema really a different type of presuppositionalist?. They seem to me to be fideists that believed nothing could be known apart from special revelation.
Presuppositionalism is not fideism. Fideism rejects philosophy/logic and just says "believe," even if what you are believing is irrational and makes no sense. The Clarkian system depends on making deductions based on the propositions contained in scripture. It also holds that the Christian worldview can be logically/philosophically defended. Of course it holds to the need for an axiom, but if that makes it "fideism" then Euclidean Geometry is also fideism. In fact, it would make everyone a fideist because the construction of any system depends on presuppositions.
And while I'm at it, the 6 who voted that they were Clarkian, I'd like to know how they know that they are.
And while I'm at it, the 6 who voted that they were Clarkian, I'd like to know how they know that they are.
And while I'm at it, the 6 who voted that they were Clarkian, I'd like to know how they know that they are.
Why is self-idenity so importaint? Is it really importaint who I am? I am just an unprofitable servant. You will say to me then, how can you predicate that to yourself? Who else am I going to predicate that statement to when Scripture reveals I am but dust? The Gospel is all about looking outward to Christ; it does not matter if I exist. God only really cares about two men: Adam and Christ. All else are under their headship.
I like Martin Luther's method - argument by assertion.
"Peter commands us to give a reason for the hope that is in us (1 Peter 3:15). And what need is there of a multitude of proofs? Nothing is more familiar or characteristic among Christians than assertion. Take away assertions, and you take away Christianity."
(The Bondage of the Will)
I didn't mean to ask how they know that they "are" as in "exist" - though that would be interesting - I meant how do they know that they "are" ... "Clarkians." Can they deduce that from Scripture?
Should the poll read: "Which view are you of the unjustified opinion of that you are?"
I didn't mean to ask how they know that they "are" as in "exist" - though that would be interesting - I meant how do they know that they "are" ... "Clarkians." Can they deduce that from Scripture?
Should the poll read: "Which view are you of the unjustified opinion of that you are?"
By Clarkian, I think you mean the claim that knowledge is comprised of the propositions of Scripture and their deductions. So you mean how do they know that all knowledge is Scripture and their implications. I guess they would point to passages that support that view (Job 38-41, Eccl. 1:14-18, 3:10-11, 7:23-29, 8:16-17, 11:1-6, Isa. 8:19-20, Matt. 16:17, 1 Cor. 1:18-31, 2:1-16, 3:18-20, Col 2:8, 1 Tim. 6:20, 2 Tim: 3:7, Jam 1:5), and show how all other claims to knowledge are illogical or fail in some way.
By Clarkian, I think you mean the claim that knowledge is comprised of the propositions of Scripture and their deductions. So you mean how do they know that all knowledge is Scripture and their implications. I guess they would point to passages that support that view (Job 38-41, Eccl. 1:14-18, 3:10-11, 7:23-29, 8:16-17, 11:1-6, Isa. 8:19-20, Matt. 16:17, 1 Cor. 1:18-31, 2:1-16, 3:18-20, Col 2:8, 1 Tim. 6:20, 2 Tim: 3:7, Jam 1:5), and show how all other claims to knowledge are illogical or fail in some way.
I mean how do they know that they are scripturalists.
So, let's just say, for arguments sake, that you are correct about what those verses mean, that still doesn't tell me how they know that they are Clarkians. Where are the deductions? Are their names in the Bible?
As far as those verses, surely you jest. I never even saw the word "deduction" in any of them.
Furthermore, "Scripture" isn't in most of them. And when it is, "all knowledge," "deduction" etc., aren't there.
I mean seriously, when you come with verses like this:
Ecc. 3:10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
as exegetical support of this position: "knowledge is comprised of the propositions of Scripture and their deductions." I can only let out a hearty gufaw.
Or take this one:
Matthew 16:17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
The word "all" isn't in there. You're fallaciously going beyond the conclusion. That God revealed *ONE THING* to *Peter* doesn't logically imply that ALL THINGS must be revealed to ALL MEN in order for them to have knowledge.
Seriosuly, when I see stuff like this I get worried for the state of Christian philosophy and theology.
The same aplies to the rest of your proof texting.
Might your method vary somewhat according to your audience?
Again, why is self-identity important? Why must I know who am I in order to have knowledge? Scripturalism or Clarkianism is an idea not an idenity. Let’s see if the idea is true.
You are right, the words are not there. I just copied down the verses that a Scripturalist gave in favor of his position. Perhaps we can look at some of the verses to see if the idea of Clarkianism is there.
Men cannot fathom or find out the work God has done from beginning to end. The verse shows that man cannot obtain knowledge of the works of God which are creation and providence. So man cannot know anything of God’s world that he made. This undercuts all claims to knowledge unless God reveals knowledge to us.
You are right; from this single verse you cannot deduce the universal statement. But from the verse we can gather that the way in which Peter got his knowledge was by revelation from God. It would seem that for us to know that Jesus is the Christ, God must reveal this to us as well. Jesus did not say to Peter, you got to your conclusion by empirical observation or by deducing it from non-scriptural premises or by a wild guess. Now do you believe that this verse is for us as well so that there is an application?
Note that I believe we can obtain knowledge from experience and deducing things from non-scriptural premises. I am just arguing what I think a Scriptualist might say, since I think there is some truth to their position, just not in their traditional formulations that I have looked at.