Is the observance of Sunday a matter of Christian Liberty?

[Semper Fidelis]

I don't personally think that the Sabbath or "Lord's Day" is a question of liberty, even though sincere believers differ in their views and convictions about it. When I look at Rom. 14 and 1Cor. 8-10 (which I just finished preaching through), I find issues that are clearly acceptable. That is, the issues Paul describes under Christian Liberty are things that Christians undoubtedly are free to do, but some still have a weak conscience about. When it comes to the Sabbath issue, it's a matter of different biblical interpretation - a theological difference. I would say that, in order for it to be a matter of liberty, it has to be something that is clearly allowed - something that is neutral in and of itself.
I think we are too quick to lump everything that Christians disagree about into the context of "liberty". We can honestly disagree about the Sabbath, but that disagreement falls in a different category than whether 1st Century Christians could eat meat or whether a Christian can have a glass of wine.

Don't want you to think I was responding to you. My post came after a litany of others and took a long time to type.

 

[kvanlaan]

Welcome to the club. Nobody, other than Christ is able to keep the Law. Nor are we able to "be perfect" as our Father in heaven is perfect. Nonetheless, we are commanded to be so. Do you cease from trying to be holy, just because your unable to attain it fully? Surely not.

An illustration from a Paul Washer sermon that come to mind when I read this: A child trying to walk in the footsteps of his father through the snow. He can't keep up, or land in the footsteps exactly; Dad's strides are simply too long, but anyone watching can tell that the child is trying.

As for the meals on Sunday, we try to put things in a crock pot so Elizabeth doesn't have to cook. We do use normal dishes and while we pay the kids for doing dishes 6 days of the week, we tell them that on the Sabbath it is a service to their family and not paid. That being said, I don't think that we would have any problem with cooking all day on the Sabbath if it was to bring a meal to a sick friend. It would keep us focused on God and charity to others; I think that Christ's act of healing on the Sabbath sets a great example here. (Sorry, may be a bit off topic now, just touching on some earlier points before all the .)

 

[ReformedWretch]

I am demanding that each of us live as if we believe the Gospel and the power of God in the Gospel to sanctify His Saints.

Who here doesn't live this way? I think this is part of the issue in regard to this discussion. For example, I don't want to imply that you (or others) have something (a gift maybe as you said) that I don't have, but when statements are made about "maturity" and demanding we (non-sabbatarians) "believe the Gospel and the power of God in the Gospel to sanctify His Saints" as if we don't believe that because..why..because we're not sabbatarians, it's a little frustrating and leads one to start to think that you must have something we don't.

I love the PB, always have, but it's weakness has always been the same. In the pursuit of holiness we can all sound "holier than thou". I trust that no one here is but I know may are impatient. When that happens, it's often insulting to those willing to consider a view they don't currently subscribe to and shuts down much of that willingness.

Rich-I know you're trying here, but I think you need to be even more patient and understanding especially with the view that is the opposite of yours. I don't think those of us who feel "left out" are trying to insult you or others. I know I'm not. I simply speak in regard to my frustration. You've said your self here-

If it is written off, a priori, as something "not for me" then I just simply don't understand that spirit in a Christian man at all.

There's a mistake there. you assume some are "writing it off" I don't know, maybe someone is, but I am not. Maybe, as you also said, I am very immature. If it helps to say that as you implied, there, I've said it too. However, if it is immaturity that keeps me from grasping this, then shouldn't you and others be more tolerant, patient, and kind? I work with teens for a living and when they don't understand something because of their maturity I can't get frustrated and angry even if their answers seem out of place or unfair. Wouldn't that be the automatic response an immature person would give until they have matured?

I find this same issue with baptism. So few here are willing to tolerate someone who struggles with the paedo baptism. Oh many do for a while, but then it eventually turns into something that at least "sounds like" -"You need to believe it because it's in the bible!" Very few have the patience or desire to walk with someone as long as it takes. That's the case here too.

I don't see ANY of this as butting heads. I see it as a struggle. If those of you are are sabbatarians are right, and "mature" in this area, then, like me as a house parent, you have to remain calm, continue to repeat yourselves, and pray. If the "immature" side speaks "immaturely" you can't be shocked by it and you certainly can't get angry about it. Unless you simply don't want to do this. Then you have to ban everyone who doesn't "get it" after a time that you've set for them to get it.

I hope this post doesn't annoy you further, and that you don't wonder how a Christian man can have this spirit.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

No Adam. It didn't annoy me. There were many other posts in that vein that were irking me.

I've tried over and over to get people to stop thinking about it as something that I want them to do or what I would do. The goal of maturity is for each to become convinced in his own mind.

My concern is that all are seeking maturity and that they aren't merely convinced because they feel they've arrived. I've been critical of both sides so I can hardly be accused of sitting on the strict Sabbatarian side with folded arms and yelling at people who "just don't get it." I've also noted the issue of maturity in both sides in this discussion.

I simply worry about some that have "shut down" an impulse to seek maturity and assume that it is impossible for desires to be changed. I agree that, in general, I need to be patient with men but, after a certain amount of time some attitudes need to be openly rebuked because they simply cannot go on with a "prove that I need to be maturing" attitude. This was not all directed at you.

 

[tdowns]

Fun = Not Holy

I've always wondered (I know this is a detail) about the non-having fun aspect to some people's view of the Sabbath...I understand, keeping it Holy, I understand, no work...but to say, playing ball with your kids, or enjoying nature in a fun way, is not HOLY. I thought we were called to live Holy lives everyday, yet, one thing I enjoy about Reformed folk, is the ability, to enjoy life, a glass of wine, a cigar, things of pleasure, for enjoyment sake, if that fits in with a HOLY LIFE, then why not on a HOLY DAY.

So, can HOLY, be RECREATIONAL....on any day? If so, why not the HOLY DAY?

Is there a scripture that clearly states, we should not do recreational things, I know it's in some of the confessions.

Like some posters have mentioned, and I agree, my best prayer, and thoughts on God, come when I'm running or biking, my greatest praise and thanks, when I'm surfing, my greatest humility and cries for grace and mercy when I'm hanging with my kids, and crying out for their salvation.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Thanks Rich

I didn't think your post was "directed" at me, but I know I struggle with this issue as some who have posted here do. I think I keep my frustration in check, but I do feel that if this is something God "gives" you in His grace, I've simply not gotten it yet. If you and others don't feel that's how it's obtained then it's my mistake for saying it that way.

I can pray and read scripture all day and still not be convinced of paedo baptism or sabbaterianism. I am not saying I never will be, but if it's a maturity issue I must spiritually be 8 or 9 years old I guess.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Thanks Rich

I didn't think your post was "directed" at me, but I know I struggle with this issue as some who have posted here do. I think I keep my frustration in check, but I do feel that if this is something God "gives" you in His grace, I've simply not gotten it yet. If you and others don't feel that's how it's obtained then it's my mistake for saying it that way.

I can pray and read scripture all day and still not be convinced of paedo baptism or sabbaterianism. I am not saying I never will be, but if it's a maturity issue I must spiritually be 8 or 9 years old I guess.

Well, don't misunderstand me. I'm not talking about this as if it's some sort of "second blessing" that will suddenly dawn on a man's mind. Sanctification is much more subtle and glacial at times.

There are certain things that cloud our understanding of things. Just recently, I had some major ephiphanies about some things that came about through the massive convergence of many different sad events in my life that revealed tremendous selfishness and sin in my heart. It really opened my eyes to not only my sin but also to what the Scriptures were really teaching me about some things that I thought I had understood previously.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Understood.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

I've always wondered (I know this is a detail) about the non-having fun aspect to some people's view of the Sabbath...I understand, keeping it Holy, I understand, no work...but to say, playing ball with your kids, or enjoying nature in a fun way, is not HOLY. I thought we were called to live Holy lives everyday, yet, one thing I enjoy about Reformed folk, is the ability, to enjoy life, a glass of wine, a cigar, things of pleasure, for enjoyment sake, if that fits in with a HOLY LIFE, then why not on a HOLY DAY.

So, can HOLY, be RECREATIONAL....on any day? If so, why not the HOLY DAY?

Is there a scripture that clearly states, we should not do recreational things, I know it's in some of the confessions.

Like some posters have mentioned, and I agree, my best prayer, and thoughts on God, come when I'm running or biking, my greatest praise and thanks, when I'm surfing, my greatest humility and cries for grace and mercy when I'm hanging with my kids, and crying out for their salvation.

Great points, what about the joys of the marriage bed as well, anyone who understands the privileges of marital intimacy knows full well it is pleasing to God for married people to consummate their relationship with great frequency and at their discretion, it is an act of worship and it is good in every way and it so happens to be by divine design pleasurable as well as sacred.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've always wondered (I know this is a detail) about the non-having fun aspect to some people's view of the Sabbath...I understand, keeping it Holy, I understand, no work...but to say, playing ball with your kids, or enjoying nature in a fun way, is not HOLY. I thought we were called to live Holy lives everyday, yet, one thing I enjoy about Reformed folk, is the ability, to enjoy life, a glass of wine, a cigar, things of pleasure, for enjoyment sake, if that fits in with a HOLY LIFE, then why not on a HOLY DAY.

So, can HOLY, be RECREATIONAL....on any day? If so, why not the HOLY DAY?

Is there a scripture that clearly states, we should not do recreational things, I know it's in some of the confessions.

Like some posters have mentioned, and I agree, my best prayer, and thoughts on God, come when I'm running or biking, my greatest praise and thanks, when I'm surfing, my greatest humility and cries for grace and mercy when I'm hanging with my kids, and crying out for their salvation.

I think many can agree that someone walking around with a prune face, and morbid does not bring Glory to God. I had mentioned earlier a small paperback by Walter Chantry, on Calling the sabbath a delight,as per Isa 58:13-14

13 “ If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the LORD honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

Much of the discussion on this thread is answered in that small paperback. Many good discussion questions are addressed in the introduction alone. Some have offered very helpful ideas about dealing with how to keep the Lord's day. [keeping meals simple,crock pots etc., doing necessary work in the other six days, making preparation the night before. The idea of calling it a delight is a positive idea , of actively serving the Lord Jesus Christ.

You get to set aside extra time for worship and study. You get to open your house up for hospitality to the visitor,or persons in need. You get to visit the sick, or those in prison,or a nursing home. Work schedules and family life during the other six days crowd out many of the good intentions we have. The setting apart or keeping The Lord's Day holy is more of a pre-planned disposition of mind to look for opportunities to do some of the "one anothering" verses we are told to do in scripture. The sabbath police are not coming around to check your list of what is permissible,or not.

That is not the issue or should I say it should not be of primary concern. Some of the lists some come up with make me nervous, (ie should I cook, clean, think, drive, use toilet paper, laugh, cry?) The issue is what does the scripture indicate is allowed for us in the way of obedience to known commands? Some who say they hold to no sabbath/Lord's day wind up doing in practice what a sabbatarian does anyway. Some who say they hold to the confessional positions mentally,sometimes deny this in practice if the truth be known.

I am learning that obedience brings blessing. I often come short of some spirituals goals I set. Even with this issue sometimes it seems like the more I try to adjust and prepare , making preparation in advance. It seems as if many obstacles press in - unsaved friends and family members requesting or putting demands upon my time. It is sort of like dieting. You start out well, lose a few pounds, then find the pounds again. Sometimes you have to set some goals that are easily attainable. This usually means advanced planning for the day. Food shopping, clothing choices,car maintenance etc. all done in advance. The more obstacles removed, the more time available to focus more on the spiritual aspects,or ministries available.

Many have referenced Rom 14 already,and here is a key section of it.

16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

The context of the righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, is serving Christ,and edifying others. We should be doing this daily , but even more on the Lord's day

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Recreations; Sabbath Observance and Recreation

These were posted on an old thread and I'm repeating them here as well, except for the first, I'm using the text from my online version.

Samuel Miller, The Nature and Effects of the Stage, A Sermon, Delivered January 19, 1812....
-----------
The design of recreation, I mean the design of it in the view of the Christian, or even of the sober minded votary of mere natural religion, is not to kill time; but to refresh the body and mind, and to prepare them for the more vigorous and comfortable performance of duty. It follows, therefore, that recreations are lawful only so far as they are necessary and suitable for this purpose; of course, when they are either carried to such a length as to consume more time than we need to employ in this manner; or when they are of such a nature as to have no tendency to prepare either the body or the mind for the more easy, comfortable, and perfect discharge of the sober duties of life, but the contrary, they become wholly unjustifiable. They are a criminal waste of time; and to indulge in them is utterly unsuitable to the character of rational and accountable beings.

.

The Morality of the Fourth Commandment, as Still in Force to Brind Christians (London: 1641) 242-244; 184. By William Twisse D. D. From An Anthology of Presbyterian & Reformed Literature 3.3 (1988) 79.
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[pp. 242-244] As for recreations, which are here said to serve lawfully to the refreshing of our spirits; this appellation is very ambiguous, neither do I know any difference between the recreating of our spirits, and the refreshing of our spirits. Yet here the refreshing of our spirits is made the end of recreation. Again it were good to distinguish between recreation of the body, and recreation of the mind. I think the refreshing of spirits pertains to the recreation of the body. Men's spirits are natural and material things, and they are apt to be wasted (1) naturally; for as life consists in calido, in hot matter, so heat is apt to spend and waste the matter wherein it is; and spirits thus wasted are recreated, that is, repaired by eating and drinking. And thus provisions of victuals are commonly called recreates.

(2.) They are wasted also by labor voluntarily undertaken, and these are repaired, as by the former way, so by rest also. And each way we are allowed to recreate our spirits on the Lord's Day; and as to allow such rest to our servants as a work of mercy, so to our own bodies also. But now a-days many courses are called recreations, wherein there is found little rest; and the natural spirits of man are rather wasted, and his nature tired; far more than the one is repaired, or the other eased. And when all comes to all, I doubt the issue will be, to style the pleasures of our senses by the cleanly name of recreations.

Now the Jews were expressly forbidden to find their own pleasures on the Lord´s holy day (Is. 58:13); yet were they not forbidden all pleasure, that belonged only to such a Sabbath as was a fast; and therein indeed hypocrites are taxed for finding pleasure on that day (Is. 58:3). But the weekly Sabbath was for pleasure and delight, but not for man's own pleasure, nor for the doing of their own ways. But to delight in the Lord, which is spiritual pleasure, and the recreating of our souls in the Lord. This is blessed rest, thus to rest unto him; and the Word of God is the best food of the soul. No recreations like unto God's holy ordinances. Of wisdom it is said, that her ways are the ways of pleasantness (Pro. 3:17). I willing confess, that to the natural man, as the things of God are foolishness, so the word of God is a reproach unto him. He hath no delight in it (1 Cor. 2:14; Jer. 6:10. He delights rather in carnal pleasures; and is it fit to humor him in such courses, and that on the Lord's day? Our Savior expressly tells us, that The pleasures life choke the word, and make it become unfruitful (Luke 8:14). Therefore it no way fits a man to God's service; and if way is opened to such courses, though not till after evening prayer, as many as are taken with them, will have their minds running upon them, so as to say, when will the Sabbath be gone, and the time of divine service over? That so they may come to their sports, as well as covetous persons longed after the like, that they may return to their trading.

A natural man, before his calling is described unto us in Scripture, to be such a one as served lusts and diverse pleasures (Titus 3:3), and the wicked are said to spend their days in pleasure (Job 36:11); and such are they whom the Prophet describes after this manner, Hear now thou that art given to pleasure (Is. 47:8). As for the children of God, as they are renewed in their affections generally, so the matter of their delight is much altered. His delight is in the law of the Lord (Psa. 1:2); as Christ says, I delight to do thy will (Psa. 40:1), and I delight myself in thy statutes; thy testimonies are my delight; and I will delight myself in thy commandments (Psa. 119:16, 24, 47), and Thy comforts delight my soul (Psa. 94:19). On the other side, the character of the fool is this, He hath no delight m understanding (Ps. 18.2). As for the reformation of such fools, let every wise and sober Christian consider, whether it is a fit course to let the reigns loose upon their neck, and give them liberty to take their courses, and not rather to endeavor to wean them therefrom by representing the vanity of them, witnessed by the experience of King Solomon, who was acquainted with the delights of the sons of men (Ecc. 2:8) as much as any, and tells us what fruit and profit he reaped by them, saying vanity of vanities, all is but vanity; and that the end of that discourse of his, is to promote this exhortation, Fear God, and keep his commandments, For this is the whole [duty of] man. Then on the other side, the blessed, the comfortable and only profitable condition of delighting in the Lord, in the judgment of David, the father of King Solomon, Delight thou in the Lord, and he shall give thee thy heart's desire (Ps. 37:4); to meet with the contrary judgment of carnal men, who say, It profitteth not a man, that he should delight himself with God (Job 34:9). If it is said that such sports are tolerated to fit a man for his calling the day following; it is very strange that works of our calling should not be permitted on any part of the Sabbath day, and sports and pastimes should. And shall not the spending of our time in God's service, not public only, but private also, far better fit us to serve God in the works of our calling, and make us more capable of his blessing upon our labors, than the exercising of ourselves in sports and pastimes.

[pp. 184] Lastly, all recreations are to this end, even to fit us to the works of our calling; either for the works of our particular callings, or the works of our callings, as we are Christians. Such sports, if they fit us for the service of God, were more seasonable in the morning than in the evening. If for the works of our particular calling, then are they inferior works to the works of our calling, the furthering whereof is their end; and the means are always inferior in dignity to the end. Now if the more noble works are forbidden on that day, how much more such as are inferior are forbidden? But it may be said, that men's minds being burdened, and oppressed with the former service of the day, therefore some relaxation is to be granted for the refreshing of our spirits; as much as to say, a part of the Lord's Day is to be allowed for profane sports and pastimes, to refresh us after we have been tired out with serving God. Can this be savory in the ears of a Christian?

 

[CalvinandHodges]

I find your post most increddible. From Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism:

Keep holy. To keep holy the Sabbath, is not to spend the day in slothfulness and idleness (watching football?); but to avoid sin, and to perform such works as are holy. God is said to sanctify the Sabbath differently from what men do. God is said to sanctify the Sabbath, because he institutes it for divine worship. Men are said to sanctify it, when they devote it to the purpose for which God instituted it.
Six days shalt thou labor. God allots six days for labor, the seventh he claims for divine worship; not that he would teach that the worship of God and meditation upon divine things is to be omitted on all other days beside the Sabbath, but, 1. That there might not only be a private worship of God on the Sabbath as at other times, but that public worship might also be observed in the church. 2. That all those other works which men ordinarily perform on the other days of the week, might on the Sabbath give place to the private and public worship of God.
Thou shalt do no manner of work. When God forbids us to work on the Sabbath day, he does not forbid every kind of work, but only such works as are servile - such as hinder the worship of God, and the design and use of the ministry of the church. That this is the true sense of this command is evident from what is expressly said in other portions of the Scripture. pg. 558. parenthesis mine.

Apparently, your understanding of the Heidelberg Catechism is radically different from that of the writers of it.

Actually he does not speak of the duration, and stresses the fact of worshipping the Lord. Secondly, the work that was spoken by God was what is ORDINARILY done as occupation. Nothing more nothing less

Because two different parties start with two different premises means that one of them cannot call the other to repentance? Hmmm. Since Jesus had a different premise concerning the Sabbath than the Pharisees, then it was not proper for him to condemn them? Hmmmm. Since you have a different premise concerning Murder than Ted Bundy it is not proper for you to condemn him? Hmmmm.

Do you know what Jesus was condemning? I suggest you read some 1st semester rabbinical literature to understand the meaning of shabbat halacha. Jesus was condemning the pharisees becasue they utilyzed the oral law in conjunction with the written law. That is the meaning of Christ's words, "It has been said" vs It has been written.. There is a big big difference. Christ has John the Baptist theology in this respect.

Ch, this is like arguing the truth of the book a Maccabees with a roman catholic. It cannot be done. It is not in a protty bible, but it is in theirs. So without a level beginning, it is impossible to dialogue correctly. Jesus could do as He pleased, He is God. But He did not condemn for the same reasons you condemn a non sab.

That one party is in error concerning the observance of the Sabbath means that it is "inappropriate" to rebuke such? Your view of what is proper and not proper is flawed. In fact, it is not proper of you to rebuke me based on your own view of propriety. Your view leaves a vacuum between oposing viewpoints.

Blessings,

-CH

It appears that more emphasis is put on showing the error ina brother vs showing your opine to be right, when in fact they are both Arguements for the sake of Heaven. Christian Liberty proponents should not regard strict sabs to be in error, well at least I do not.

Where as statements like this:Teaching your child to disobey God on the Sabbath day is a form of spiritual murder. Ted Bundy could only affect the body, but you would be destroying a soul.

Which is worse?

sound like Moses' first cousin Korach who lead a rebellion against Moses and Aaron described in chapters 16 and 17 of the book of Numbers. While Korach(you CH) claims to be out for the good of the entire community,(upholding the 4th commandment and making it binding and a burden) he is in reality only interested in displacing Moses as the highest human authority.

You see the connection? Boht the Saducee and Pharisee started with the same root. They both believed in the 7th day. It is just you add the commandments of men, like the pharisee, which is not bad per se', as equally binding as the written Law.

Let me give you another example. A LAw stated that no commerce was to be done on the 7th day. Thats all the saducee would say, then the pharisee added that noone could carry money on the 7th day. Now their goal was to 'add' something to bind the people not as a burden, but only to reinforce the root of no commerce on the sabbath. So being a pharisee is not as bad as people make it to be. Obviously Christ was against them becasue He did not favor the oral law..

Hi:

You have skillfully ignored the point, and the question on this thread. As far as the duration of the Sabbath goes it is irrelevant when considering the Sabbath "Holy." Since the Ursinus commentary I quoted does not address the duration of the Sabbath by bringing in this topic you have created a logical fallacy - irrelevant thesis.

The questions that you must answer are: What does it mean to keep the Sabbath Holy? and, Does my Christian Freedom allow me to watch Football on Sundays?

The Oral laws - if there was such a thing - has nothing to do with what I am saying. Again, you bring in an irrelevant thesis in order to avoid answering the question.

Ursinus clearly points out that: "To keep holy the Sabbath, is not to spend the day in slothfulness and idleness (watching football?);" As I pointed out earlier (with parenthesis mine). If you are going to accuse me of Pharisaism, then I stand in good company with John Calvin, Ursinus, and the Puritans, and I would proudly wear such a label with these great men of God.

No Longer A Libertine:

I will commend the many posts of Chris Coldwell to you on this thread as "proof" of the position I hold. It would be rather tautological of me to repeat what he has written.

Blessings all,

-CH

 

[Blueridge Believer]

I changed my postion on the sabbath recently after much study and wrestling on the matter. All I can say is I'm glad I did. It has truly been a wonderful thing for my family and I.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/sabbath-postion-change-22773/

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

They would appeal to passages such as Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16 in support of the idea that the Sabbath is no longer obligatory.

Speaking as one who comes from a dispensational background, I would say that it's much more than these passages. The argument is that the 10 commandments were given to Israel and not to the church. Therefore, the only reason the other 9 commandments would be obligatory is because they are specifically repeated in the New Testament, in some form. Hence, the law, as contained in the 10 commandments, is not the rule of life for the Christian. The commands of the New Testament are.
I don't subscribe to this view. I'm just familiar with it as most of my Christian friends and acquaintances would hold to it.[/QUOTE]

Mike

Reformed non-Sabbath people would utilize a different hermeneutic from Dispensationalists, in that they would say everything in the Old Testament carries over into the New except for what has been repealed. Consequently, they appeal to the texts in question in an attempt to argue that the Sabbath has been abrogated as it was part of the ceremonial law. While the position may be the same as that reached by Dispensationalists, the rationale ibehind the conclusion is a bit different.

 

[Bygracealone]

I might add to this discussion the fact that the Sabbath was given to man from the time of creation. It was given and observed long before the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. It's a creation ordinance...

For those interested in hearing a couple sermons preached on this subject from a Reformed perspective, I pray that the following might prove to be helpful. They are two sermons I preached a couple years back. In them, I attempt to answer common objections and to show how this gracious commandment continues to apply to mankind today. Please know that I'm in no way attempting to "toot my own horn" by recommending my own sermon. I just offer it for those who may be interested in studying the subject further. Most of the material has already been shared on this forum, but I find that it sometimes helps to have many of the arguments given together to make a case...

SermonAudio.com - Remember the Sabbath Day

SermonAudio.com - The Sabbath is the Lord's Day

In His grace,

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Please know that I'm in no way attempting to "toot my own horn" by recommending my own sermon. I just offer it for those who may be interested in studying the subject further. Most of the material has already been shared on this forum, but I find that it sometimes helps to have many of the arguments given together to make a case...

SermonAudio.com - Remember the Sabbath Day

SermonAudio.com - The Sabbath is the Lord's Day

In His grace,

Although Steve won't toot his own horn, I will.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/steve-bradley-sermons-26655/

 

[KMK]

I totally agree with Rich in that the details of Sabbath keeping should be handled in the 'pastoral' arena. The posts in this thread that I find most edifying are the ones that present 'pastoral theology' as opposed to systematics or history. (Maybe I'm biased)

Here's a thought from a pastoral perspective. The two tables of the Law are summed up in "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind." and "Love your neighbor as yourself." I submit to you that the 10 commandments are all outgrowths of these two 'greatest' commandments.

What does it look like when a man loves his neighbor as himself? He does not lie, steal, murder, fornicate etc. etc.

What does it look like when a man loves the Lord with all of his heart, soul, and mind? He has no other gods before Him, he does not carve idols, he does not take the name of the Lord in vain, and he keeps the Sabbath holy!

Whatever 'Sabbath keeping' looks like, it should grow out of a love for the Lord with all our hearts, souls and minds.

I love my wife. I have to work 5 days a week to make a living. You can bet that I look forward to my day off when I can spend time with my wife. I do everything I can to get my work finished at work so that it does not distract me on my day off from having a relationship with my wife. What happens to those marraiges in which a husband works 7 days a week? The marraige suffers! What happens to Christians who are not dilligent to get everything done before their day off with the Lord? Their relationship with him suffers!

I believe this is the meaning of "Six days shalt thou labor". Try to get everything you can out of the way so you can spend the day the Lord has given you in relationship with Him!

I think the Divines (who were very pastoral) understood this and that is why they wrote the confession as they did. Not to be 'strict' as some have accused, but to give us a guide to what loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind will look like as we mature.

 

[Bygracealone]

Good pastoral points brother Ken. I would add that keeping the Sabbath involves both: loving the Lord AND our neighbor. To continue on with your pastoral points, we show our love toward our neighbor by keeping the Sabbath holy in that we do not cause them to work unnecessarily (i.e. serving us in restaurants, shopping malls, etc...) and by being an example to them in our observance of the Lord's holy day.

In His grace,

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Here is a question that I would like to see answered by those who prefer a more Continental Sabbath:

If we are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy, which we are, then does that not mean that we should abstain from common things (such as recreations) which are lawful on other days, but profane on God's holy day?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Here is a question that I would like to see answered by those who prefer a more Continental Sabbath:

If we are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy, which we are, then does that not mean that we should abstain from common things (such as recreations) which are lawful on other days, but profane on God's holy day?

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Here is one Continental divine's perspective on Christian Sabbath-keeping as it pertains to the issue of recreation:

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 3, p. 144:

Fourthly, we sin when we make this day into a day of worldly pleasure. The sabbath is a delight -- however, when we abuse it by delighting ourselves in worldly things and in the lusts of the flesh. This pertains to sailing, horse-riding, fishing, bird-hunting, playing tennis, playing ball, or to the entertaining of one's self with such things that are lawful at the appropriate time and place, in the appropriate company, and with the appropriate objective. This pertains even more to games of chance, playing cards, and playing with dice (cf. Isa. 58:13-14). However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

 

[MW]

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Very nice.

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

Truly, unless one has redefined continental to mean basically anti Sabbatarian, which seems to be the modern definition.

 

[VictorBravo]

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

Very nice.

Seriously, there is no substantial difference between them from a conservative reformed point of view.

Truly, unless one has redefined continental to mean basically anti Sabbatarian, which seems to be the modern definition.

Yeah, I was all ready to say it had something to do with the Continental Calvin bowling, but Chris has pretty effectively taken the fun out of that myth.

BTW, Nicholas, I think the "continental view of the sabbath" idea actually has its roots in that myth.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Here is one Continental divine's perspective on Christian Sabbath-keeping as it pertains to the issue of recreation:

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 3, p. 144:

Fourthly, we sin when we make this day into a day of worldly pleasure. The sabbath is a delight -- however, when we abuse it by delighting ourselves in worldly things and in the lusts of the flesh. This pertains to sailing, horse-riding, fishing, bird-hunting, playing tennis, playing ball, or to the entertaining of one's self with such things that are lawful at the appropriate time and place, in the appropriate company, and with the appropriate objective. This pertains even more to games of chance, playing cards, and playing with dice (cf. Isa. 58:13-14). However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

That's a Sabbath where you only have a light breakfast and are hungry by about 10.00am. so that you crave something more.

The Aussies...they are just too funny

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Here is a question that I would like to see answered by those who prefer a more Continental Sabbath:

If we are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy, which we are, then does that not mean that we should abstain from common things (such as recreations) which are lawful on other days, but profane on God's holy day?

Daniel, what is a continental sabbath?

I would consider a continental Sabbath the view that some recreation is legitimate on the Lord's Day (but not professional sports), while the Scottish/Puritan view is that all recreation is forbidden on the Sabbath.

I hold the later because it is hard to reconcile recreation with Isaiah 58:13-14.

 

[Amazing Grace]

I find your post most increddible. From Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism:


Apparently, your understanding of the Heidelberg Catechism is radically different from that of the writers of it.

Actually he does not speak of the duration, and stresses the fact of worshipping the Lord. Secondly, the work that was spoken by God was what is ORDINARILY done as occupation. Nothing more nothing less



Do you know what Jesus was condemning? I suggest you read some 1st semester rabbinical literature to understand the meaning of shabbat halacha. Jesus was condemning the pharisees becasue they utilyzed the oral law in conjunction with the written law. That is the meaning of Christ's words, "It has been said" vs It has been written.. There is a big big difference. Christ has John the Baptist theology in this respect.

Ch, this is like arguing the truth of the book a Maccabees with a roman catholic. It cannot be done. It is not in a protty bible, but it is in theirs. So without a level beginning, it is impossible to dialogue correctly. Jesus could do as He pleased, He is God. But He did not condemn for the same reasons you condemn a non sab.

That one party is in error concerning the observance of the Sabbath means that it is "inappropriate" to rebuke such? Your view of what is proper and not proper is flawed. In fact, it is not proper of you to rebuke me based on your own view of propriety. Your view leaves a vacuum between oposing viewpoints.

Blessings,

-CH

It appears that more emphasis is put on showing the error ina brother vs showing your opine to be right, when in fact they are both Arguements for the sake of Heaven. Christian Liberty proponents should not regard strict sabs to be in error, well at least I do not.

Where as statements like this:Teaching your child to disobey God on the Sabbath day is a form of spiritual murder. Ted Bundy could only affect the body, but you would be destroying a soul.

Which is worse?

sound like Moses' first cousin Korach who lead a rebellion against Moses and Aaron described in chapters 16 and 17 of the book of Numbers. While Korach(you CH) claims to be out for the good of the entire community,(upholding the 4th commandment and making it binding and a burden) he is in reality only interested in displacing Moses as the highest human authority.

You see the connection? Boht the Saducee and Pharisee started with the same root. They both believed in the 7th day. It is just you add the commandments of men, like the pharisee, which is not bad per se', as equally binding as the written Law.

Let me give you another example. A LAw stated that no commerce was to be done on the 7th day. Thats all the saducee would say, then the pharisee added that noone could carry money on the 7th day. Now their goal was to 'add' something to bind the people not as a burden, but only to reinforce the root of no commerce on the sabbath. So being a pharisee is not as bad as people make it to be. Obviously Christ was against them becasue He did not favor the oral law..

Hi:

You have skillfully ignored the point, and the question on this thread. As far as the duration of the Sabbath goes it is irrelevant when considering the Sabbath "Holy." Since the Ursinus commentary I quoted does not address the duration of the Sabbath by bringing in this topic you have created a logical fallacy - irrelevant thesis.

The questions that you must answer are: What does it mean to keep the Sabbath Holy? and, Does my Christian Freedom allow me to watch Football on Sundays?

The Oral laws - if there was such a thing - has nothing to do with what I am saying. Again, you bring in an irrelevant thesis in order to avoid answering the question.

Ursinus clearly points out that: "To keep holy the Sabbath, is not to spend the day in slothfulness and idleness (watching football?);" As I pointed out earlier (with parenthesis mine). If you are going to accuse me of Pharisaism, then I stand in good company with John Calvin, Ursinus, and the Puritans, and I would proudly wear such a label with these great men of God.

No Longer A Libertine:

I will commend the many posts of Chris Coldwell to you on this thread as "proof" of the position I hold. It would be rather tautological of me to repeat what he has written.

Blessings all,

-CH

CH:

I have not forgotten about our "duel" here. Just reflecting a tad so I do not answer from the flesh and bring abosolutely nothing into the dialogue..

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Even the Scots Presbyterian and Puritan view would acknowledge some difference between walking in the field and what we normally think of as recreations. See Twisse's somewhat archaic addressing of the topic above. James Durham recognizes this is more in the area of the circumstances rather than simply unlawful as well.

Wherefore, in reference to offense, men would have an eye on themselves,
and what generally they are reputed to be, and so would abstain from the
least appearance of what is supposed to be predominant in them, as also
they would have respect to others that are present, or may be hearers or
beholders, considering what are their thoughts of them, or of such deeds,
etc., and accordingly would carry [themselves], although it [would mean
abstaining] from such a place, apparel, diet, etc., which in reason,
abstractly [considered] from offense, might be pleaded for as becoming.
Thus one walking abroad on the Sabbath, may be sanctifying it, yet by his
example some other may be provoked to vage and gad and cast off all
duties of the day, and to neglect what is called for in secret, or in the
family. In that respect, it becomes offensive to go abroad, although it is
lawful in itself to meditate abroad in the fields, as well as in house.
James Durham, A Treatise Concerning Scandal (NP: 1990) 1.2, p. 14.

Here is one Continental divine's perspective on Christian Sabbath-keeping as it pertains to the issue of recreation:

Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 3, p. 144:

Fourthly, we sin when we make this day into a day of worldly pleasure. The sabbath is a delight -- however, when we abuse it by delighting ourselves in worldly things and in the lusts of the flesh. This pertains to sailing, horse-riding, fishing, bird-hunting, playing tennis, playing ball, or to the entertaining of one's self with such things that are lawful at the appropriate time and place, in the appropriate company, and with the appropriate objective. This pertains even more to games of chance, playing cards, and playing with dice (cf. Isa. 58:13-14). However, strolling in the fields or in gardens (be it alone or with others) does not belong to the forbidden sins, if we do so for the purpose of observing the works of God, to glorify Him thereby, and to be refreshed according to soul and body. Even if the world does this in a sinful manner, this cannot prevent the believer from doing it in a spiritual manner.

Thanks for this quote; however, I fail to see the difference between playing ball for 10 minutes and strolling in the fields - surely both constitute a form of recreation?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Yeah, I was all ready to say it had something to do with the Continental Calvin bowling, but Chris has pretty effectively taken the fun out of that myth.

That's me, Mr. Lettheairoutoftheballoon.

BTW, Nicholas, I think the "continental view of the sabbath" idea actually has its roots in that myth.

Well, at the very least some sure give that impression when that seems to be the reflex defense of it!