WSC 74- We are required to procure wealth???

[Puritan Sailor]

WSC
Question 74:
What is required in the eight commandment?
Answer:
The eight commandment requireth the lawful procuring and furthering the wealth and outward estate of ourselves and others.
Proof texts: Rom 12:17, Prov 27:23, Lev 25:35, Phil 2:4

Am I reading this right? Is this saying I'm required to gain wealth? Or is this just a 17th century way of speaking that I'm not familiar with?

 

[Pilgrim]

Here are the proof texts:

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Rom. 12:17)

Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds. (Prov. 27:23)

And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. (Lev 25:35)

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. (Phil. 2:4)

 

[Semper Fidelis]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Building wealth is a tool of dominion, a means by which we can subdue the earth by owning property, investing in business etc.

 

[Amazing Grace]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

Inheritances are not the same as what the fool was doing here; he was laying up riches for a life of ease, not providing his offspring with the means to subdue the earth through diligent work and investment.

 

[Amazing Grace]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

Inheritances are not the same as what the fool was doing here; he was laying up riches for a life of ease, not providing his offspring with the means to subdue the earth through diligent work and investment.

Besides totally disagreeing with you view of dominion, I still do not understand verse 20 at all Daniel. His children would have owned it. Why is Christ callign him a fool for this?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

Two completely different categories. I did not state that we accrue in order to go into retirement and ease our soul. Honestly, the idea of just amassing wealth to go on cruises or feed my flesh is repugnant to me. I hope to be working diligently in some capacity, to the glory of God, until I'm laid to rest. I noted that we are supposed to work to provide for our household, for others, and ultimately to our progeny. If an inheritance was wicked then the father in the Parable of the Prodigal Son is a wicked individual. The notion of inheritance is built in to the Old Testament and is one of the things protected by the Law. It is also the analogy that God uses to refer to how we instill a Godly desire for God in our children.

 

[RamistThomist]

In Proverbs it says a wise man leaves an inheritance for his children. Proverbs 13:22

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

The bible says it; that settles it.

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

Inheritances are not the same as what the fool was doing here; he was laying up riches for a life of ease, not providing his offspring with the means to subdue the earth through diligent work and investment.

Besides totally disagreeing with you view of dominion, I still do not understand verse 20 at all Daniel. His children would have owned it. Why is Christ callign him a fool for this?

Verse 19 answers the question "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."' He was laying up riches so that he could take a time of retirement to spend in ease before his death, instead of using his wealth to work to the glory of God - i.e. exercising godly dominion (Gen. 9; Psa. 8). This is one reason why Christians must oppose the retirement/pension culture; we are commanded to work until we return to the ground, not take an early Sabbath late in life.

 

[Amazing Grace]

As I see it, Patrick, the positive command is to work hard, to be honest in our work, to provide for our families (estate), and to those in need.

One of the ways we steal from others is by not working as hard as we ought in our employment and not giving an honest days work to others or even in using dishonest scales.

I also think there is a basic principle that a man is supposed to provide for his household in his diligent work. Paul calls men that don't work and don't provide for their households worse than pagans and those that deny the faith. We are not to be slothful or idle but to be hard-working for our families.

Even the notion that we would pass on an inheritance and not leave debt behind for our children is commended. I don't think what the notion here is that you're amassing wealth simply for the sake of amassing wealth but that you are earning an honest days wage to provide for others in your family as well as to build up an estate that you can bless your progeny with later on in life.

Rich:

THis topic has been discussed lately in a study. I am coming to the conclusion that the last statement must be taken with much caution and believe that leaving an inheritance MAY go against Christ's teaching in Luke 12.

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

I just do not know what to make of this parable.... Especially verse 20..

Two completely different categories. I did not state that we accrue in order to go into retirement and ease our soul. Honestly, the idea of just amassing wealth to go on cruises or feed my flesh is repugnant to me. I hope to be working diligently in some capacity, to the glory of God, until I'm laid to rest. I noted that we are supposed to work to provide for our household, for others, and ultimately to our progeny. If an inheritance was wicked then the father in the Parable of the Prodigal Son is a wicked individual. The notion of inheritance is built in to the Old Testament and is one of the things protected by the Law. It is also the analogy that God uses to refer to how we instill a Godly desire for God in our children.

It is amazing how I can miss something like this at times so simple.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Inheritances are not the same as what the fool was doing here; he was laying up riches for a life of ease, not providing his offspring with the means to subdue the earth through diligent work and investment.

Besides totally disagreeing with you view of dominion, I still do not understand verse 20 at all Daniel. His children would have owned it. Why is Christ callign him a fool for this?

Verse 19 answers the question "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."' He was laying up riches so that he could take a time of retirement to spend in ease before his death, instead of using his wealth to work to the glory of God - i.e. exercising godly dominion (Gen. 9; Psa. 8). This is one reason why Christians must oppose the retirement/pension culture; we are commanded to work until we return to the ground, not take an early Sabbath late in life.

Good point Daniel. It is not the storing up for inheritance which makes this man a fool, it is his thought of retirement, which appears to be an unbiblical concept..

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It is amazing how I can miss something like this at times so simple.

Be encouraged, at least it's not like you're a Galatian and those like them that are missing something even more simple!

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

In Proverbs it says a wise man leaves an inheritance for his children. Proverbs 13:22

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

The bible says it; that settles it.

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

Not to mention taxing inheritance - which was one of Marx's blueprints for the establishment of Communism

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

It is amazing how I can miss something like this at times so simple.

Be encouraged, at least it's not like you're a Galatian and those like them that are missing something even more simple!

Your beginning to sound like Randy.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

Not to mention taxing inheritance - which was one of Marx's blueprints for the establishment of Communism

Stick to the purpose of the thread. There's more to this than whining about taxes. In fact, there's nothing in the WLC Q&A that complains about the State so let's stay on topic.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It is amazing how I can miss something like this at times so simple.

Be encouraged, at least it's not like you're a Galatian and those like them that are missing something even more simple!

Your beginning to sound like Randy.

Yeah, because Scripture imitates Randy in using such terms.

 

[RamistThomist]

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

Not to mention taxing inheritance - which was one of Marx's blueprints for the establishment of Communism

Stick to the purpose of the thread. There's more to this than whining about taxes. In fact, there's nothing in the WLC Q&A that complains about the State so let's stay on topic.

Sorry. I had been looking for that Proverbs reference for a while and got too excited. I won't mention more except it would be in the State's benefit to allow the producer to re-invest his capital, instead of taxing it excessively. While it may appear off topic, it is hard to procure wealth in high taxation. But I won't say more on it.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

Not to mention taxing inheritance - which was one of Marx's blueprints for the establishment of Communism

Stick to the purpose of the thread. There's more to this than whining about taxes. In fact, there's nothing in the WLC Q&A that complains about the State so let's stay on topic.

The state is breaking the eight commandment by engaging in oppressive taxation (1 Sam. 8), and thus hindering people from doing what the WSC tells us to.

 

[Me Died Blue]

In Proverbs it says a wise man leaves an inheritance for his children. Proverbs 13:22

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

The bible says it; that settles it.

Of course, the modern state, by taxing and penalizing hard work, makes that difficult.

Indeed. And in light of that Proverb, that is one more reason it does not seem unbiblical or unwise to me to work to attain financial independence, and even for a family to let their assets grow further over their lifetimes. Often, Christians I know respond to that idea with something like, "Money can't buy happiness," or the like. But I respond by observing that while that in itself could not be more true, if a family reaches the point where they can live on passive income alone, they can then spend all their time focusing on the things that can bring fulfillment. Furthermore, they can then dedicate more of their time to serving others through the very best gifts they have all been given, since often, our most natural gifts or talents will simply not be sufficient in themselves to make a living.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Be encouraged, at least it's not like you're a Galatian and those like them that are missing something even more simple!

Your beginning to sound like Randy.

Yeah, because Scripture imitates Randy in using such terms.

I like the way Randy says such things.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

So I take it you all agree that "procuring and furthering" wealth doesn't necessarily mean amassing or hording wealth. It means using legitimate means to better care for our families and our neighbors. Does that seem to be the consensus?

 

[KMK]

WSC
Question 74:
What is required in the eight commandment?
Answer:
The eight commandment requireth the lawful procuring and furthering the wealth and outward estate of ourselves and others.
Proof texts: Rom 12:17, Prov 27:23, Lev 25:35, Phil 2:4

Am I reading this right? Is this saying I'm required to gain wealth? Or is this just a 17th century way of speaking that I'm not familiar with?

I'm wondering if the divines intended to emphasize the word 'lawful' and not the word 'requireth'. In other words,, the 8th requires that all procurement and furthering of wealth be done 'lawfully'. I don't think they were intending to say that all are 'required' to further their wealth. (Although there is nothing wrong with doing so, as these posts have shown)

 

[Semper Fidelis]

So I take it you all agree that "procuring and furthering" wealth doesn't necessarily mean amassing or hording wealth. It means using legitimate means to better care for our families and our neighbors. Does that seem to be the consensus?

It's what I think at least. I haven't read the commentaries but the Scriptures used are consistent with that idea. I often think that, today, vocation is under-valued in a way that the Reformation had re-captured. Doing honest, hard work is a Biblical virtue as is leaving something to bless your kids.

Especially back in the egrarian economy of the ANE, you were practically guaranteeing generations of slavery for your kids if you squandered your estate. Families didn't really spread out much but sort of built on to the existing property of their ancestors so that a man's possessions were generationally inherited. I think the physical inheritance really connected the people to the faith of their fathers and the desire to pursue such things in a way that our disconnected society does not.

I think when you understand how a household might take generations to build into a large estate large enough to even hire others (and thereby bless the poor with employment) you even get a sense for how wicked the Prodigal Son is for demanding his share of an estate and for centuries of work to be squandered in a short time on loose living. The story would have been incredibly shocking to the ears of Jesus' hearers and made the Prodigal Son a true object of contempt and unworthiness to ever show his face around his father again. That the father runs to him would have been the most shocking story twist imaginable. Even all the things that the father then lavished on the son - a tunic, a ring, and a calf - are extravagant. The unmerited blessing we receive from Sovereign grace adopting wretched sinners is pictured in the estate of the father being given to the returning scoundrel.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

So I take it you all agree that "procuring and furthering" wealth doesn't necessarily mean amassing or hording wealth. It means using legitimate means to better care for our families and our neighbors. Does that seem to be the consensus?

It's what I think at least. I haven't read the commentaries but the Scriptures used are consistent with that idea. I often think that, today, vocation is under-valued in a way that the Reformation had re-captured. Doing honest, hard work is a Biblical virtue as is leaving something to bless your kids.

Especially back in the egrarian economy of the ANE, you were practically guaranteeing generations of slavery for your kids if you squandered your estate. Families didn't really spread out much but sort of built on to the existing property of their ancestors so that a man's possessions were generationally inherited. I think the physical inheritance really connected the people to the faith of their fathers and the desire to pursue such things in a way that our disconnected society does not.

I think when you understand how a household might take generations to build into a large estate large enough to even hire others (and thereby bless the poor with employment) you even get a sense for how wicked the Prodigal Son is for demanding his share of an estate and for centuries of work to be squandered in a short time on loose living. The story would have been incredibly shocking to the ears of Jesus' hearers and made the Prodigal Son a true object of contempt and unworthiness to ever show his face around his father again. That the father runs to him would have been the most shocking story twist imaginable. Even all the things that the father then lavished on the son - a tunic, a ring, and a calf - are extravagant. The unmerited blessing we receive from Sovereign grace adopting wretched sinners is pictured in the estate of the father being given to the returning scoundrel.

That point about the prodigal son squandering centuries of work is very interesting; it should make us careful about how we use our inheritance.

P.S. What does ANE mean?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Ancient Near East.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Ancient Near East.

Cheers.

 

[Coram Deo]

This has been a very educational and thought provoking thread that has been very edifying....

 

[RamistThomist]

While assertions of dominion might not always be well-thought out, let's not completely jettison the idea. People often ask me, "How do you know that the Bible teaches the free-market, honest currency, etc? Can you 'prove' that from Scripture?" Well, I probably could give verses that teach thusly (easily done on honest currencies), but there is another line of thought: God's laws, (and even if you are not a theonomist, the following assertion shouldn't be a problem) have built in punishments for breaking them. Planned economies and socialisms fail because they are internally self-destructive.

Now to the subject at hand. Let's take the original dominion mandate given to Adam pre-fall. Although Adam was in Paradise, he faced many of the problems that we face today: finite supply of materials, limited capital, primitive technology, etc. So while he was in Paradise, he had to work hard (but given other biblical evidence we may infer that the work was pleasant to him: if you powerlift you can understand how hard work can be pleasant).

Let's use the favorite reference of all economists: Robison Crusoe. Stranded on the island, Crusoe has limited resources and tools. Let's say he can pick 20 berries an hour and works 10 hours at berry-picking and has 14 hours of leisure. It is evident to him that without the aid of capital the only goods open to him for consumption are short-term goods. But if Crusoe wanted to do better, he would see that if he had a stick he could shake 50 berries off a tree per hour. But it takes him 10 hours to find the stick. This restriction of consumption (either of berries or leisure) for the sake of capital goods is called SAVING.

Now Crusoe can either pick more berries per hour or work fewer hours for the same number of berries. If he chooses the latter, he can invest his time into other projects, projects that will either improve his standard of living or--in our case--the standard of living of those around us.

This is why exorbitant taxation for the sake of fattening bueracrats is not only wrong, but stupid! What the State does is prevent the investing of capital into larger, wealth-building schemes that improve the standard of living of the community. But if the majority of your income is being taxed away, how can you save? how can you invest this capital into projects that create more jobs, more real wealth, improve technology, etc? The Soviet Union didn't fall because "democracy" (the god of the masses) is superior. The Soviet Union fell because socialism is programmed for failure.

 

[Davidius]

It might be important to clarify the divines' understanding of "wealth." It doesn't mean that we are all to try to become rich, just that we are to earn a living, as others have said. The word "wealth" today is associated with large amounts of money.