What Thinketh Y'all of Robert Dabney?

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I agree Daniel. I think your "distance" from the American culture makes my comment hard to understand. There are some that cannot hold two truths together: that men are imperfect and can be, at the same time, admirable. I admire men but am not uncritical of them. There are some scholars that visited Command and Staff College when I attended that made the keen observation that it takes a few centuries before we can really begin to learn lessons from our own history (in some cases longer). The Civil War is still too very close to Americans and we're unable to look at certain things without "taking sides". Some things you might think "What's the big deal?" are very person for many.

I suppose there are still some people living whose grandfathers (or at least great-grandfathers) fought in the civil war?

:offtopic:

Moreover, I recall reading in the first volume of Shelby Foote's history of the ACW (this was a long time ago) that the nickname "Stonewall" was not originally a compliment. Can anyone confirm this?
 
I agree Daniel. I think your "distance" from the American culture makes my comment hard to understand. There are some that cannot hold two truths together: that men are imperfect and can be, at the same time, admirable. I admire men but am not uncritical of them. There are some scholars that visited Command and Staff College when I attended that made the keen observation that it takes a few centuries before we can really begin to learn lessons from our own history (in some cases longer). The Civil War is still too very close to Americans and we're unable to look at certain things without "taking sides". Some things you might think "What's the big deal?" are very person for many.

I suppose there are still some people living whose grandfathers (or at least great-grandfathers) fought in the civil war?

:offtopic:

Moreover, I recall reading in the first volume of Shelby Foote's history of the ACW (this was a long time ago) that the nickname "Stonewall" was not originally a compliment. Can anyone confirm this?

Some people state that General Bernard Bee (I might have gotten the wrong general? ) used the phrase "Stonewall" in anger because Jackson did not advance his troops to help Bee, but rather stood like a "stonewall." At least that is what a few historians say. I tend to read it as a compliment in light of the available evidence.
 
Scott,

Oops. You are correct. I did misunderstand your point. After a LONG day of board meetings and some pretty anxiety producing moments at work, I read through the ton of posts WAY too fast. I'm just not used to re-fighting the civil war. Where I come from, it almost never comes up in conversation at all so my ability to "read between the lines" and catch the nuances is pretty near zilch. It seemed that some of the posts were stimnuulated at least in part due to regional pride being offended.

I used the language on purpose, not to pussyfoot for the Dabney-ites, but because often when you read somebody from a different era, there are parts that just sound jarring. I make no brief for putdowns based on race and am happy call sin sin. However, it is simply too easy to cherry-pick the sins of other eras without taking into account the environment in which the writer/thinker lived. That's evident in my ultimate bottom line on Dabney:

Some of his social views were cultural, others were flat out sinful, some were driven by political realities on the ground, and some were common to people in his position in his part of the country. I think Dabney is a GREAT theologian and will continue to use his work as one of the best of the bunch. I never said he was perfect, just a great theologian.

Life is too short not to cherish the great contributions made by imperfect people (e.g., Luther, Calvin, Dabney, Hodge, Machen, Sproul, etc.).

Thanks, Dennis. I wasn't used to re-fighting the Civil War either until I moved to the South.
 
I agree Daniel. I think your "distance" from the American culture makes my comment hard to understand. There are some that cannot hold two truths together: that men are imperfect and can be, at the same time, admirable. I admire men but am not uncritical of them. There are some scholars that visited Command and Staff College when I attended that made the keen observation that it takes a few centuries before we can really begin to learn lessons from our own history (in some cases longer). The Civil War is still too very close to Americans and we're unable to look at certain things without "taking sides". Some things you might think "What's the big deal?" are very person for many.

I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT
 
I agree Daniel. I think your "distance" from the American culture makes my comment hard to understand. There are some that cannot hold two truths together: that men are imperfect and can be, at the same time, admirable. I admire men but am not uncritical of them. There are some scholars that visited Command and Staff College when I attended that made the keen observation that it takes a few centuries before we can really begin to learn lessons from our own history (in some cases longer). The Civil War is still too very close to Americans and we're unable to look at certain things without "taking sides". Some things you might think "What's the big deal?" are very person for many.

I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Whether or not you "think" closeness has much impact, a number of scholars think otherwise and I agree with them based on many examples of an unwillingness to view cultural icons uncritically. A perfect example of "closeness" was when A&E interviewed about 1000 historians to have them list the 100 most important people of the last 1000 years for a special show at the end of 1999. They collated each list to number them from 1-100. Princess Diana actually made the list and there were a number of people during the show that noted that a hundred years from now most will wonder what folks were thinking to stick her on that list (along with Stephen Spielberg). Incidentally, Calvin, Luther, and Hitler were in the top 10 so it was a pretty decent list in the main otherwise.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you think you're implying CT but nobody here has, a single time in this thread, even come remotely close to implying Dabney is "Demon Spawn". I do not, at all, appreciate the characterization and you better guard your tone.
 
I agree Daniel. I think your "distance" from the American culture makes my comment hard to understand. There are some that cannot hold two truths together: that men are imperfect and can be, at the same time, admirable. I admire men but am not uncritical of them. There are some scholars that visited Command and Staff College when I attended that made the keen observation that it takes a few centuries before we can really begin to learn lessons from our own history (in some cases longer). The Civil War is still too very close to Americans and we're unable to look at certain things without "taking sides". Some things you might think "What's the big deal?" are very person for many.

I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Whether or not you "think" closeness has much impact, a number of scholars think otherwise and I agree with them based on many examples of an unwillingness to view cultural icons uncritically. A perfect example of "closeness" was when A&E interviewed about 1000 historians to have them list the 100 most important people of the last 1000 years for a special show at the end of 1999. They collated each list to number them from 1-100. Princess Diana actually made the list and there were a number of people during the show that noted that a hundred years from now most will wonder what folks were thinking to stick her on that list (along with Stephen Spielberg). Incidentally, Calvin, Luther, and Hitler were in the top 10 so it was a pretty decent list in the main otherwise.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you think you're implying CT but nobody here has, a single time in this thread, even come remotely close to implying Dabney is "Demon Spawn". I do not, at all, appreciate the characterization and you better guard your tone.

I think what he meant by "Demon Spawn" is that if you look at the link from the racistchurches website, or go to the drivel by Morris Disease and Southern Poverty Law Center, you will find those mentionings of Dabney.

Hermonta didn't claim anybody on this thread called Dabney that.
 
I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Whether or not you "think" closeness has much impact, a number of scholars think otherwise and I agree with them based on many examples of an unwillingness to view cultural icons uncritically. A perfect example of "closeness" was when A&E interviewed about 1000 historians to have them list the 100 most important people of the last 1000 years for a special show at the end of 1999. They collated each list to number them from 1-100. Princess Diana actually made the list and there were a number of people during the show that noted that a hundred years from now most will wonder what folks were thinking to stick her on that list (along with Stephen Spielberg). Incidentally, Calvin, Luther, and Hitler were in the top 10 so it was a pretty decent list in the main otherwise.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you think you're implying CT but nobody here has, a single time in this thread, even come remotely close to implying Dabney is "Demon Spawn". I do not, at all, appreciate the characterization and you better guard your tone.

I think what he meant by "Demon Spawn" is that if you look at the link from the racistchurches website, or go to the drivel by Morris Disease and Southern Poverty Law Center, you will find those mentionings of Dabney.

Hermonta didn't claim anybody on this thread called Dabney that.

And yet he attached my quoted text to make that point. My assertion is that if a man is going to claim a mischaracterization he better be very careful who he is quoting when he does so.
 
Whether or not you "think" closeness has much impact, a number of scholars think otherwise and I agree with them based on many examples of an unwillingness to view cultural icons uncritically. A perfect example of "closeness" was when A&E interviewed about 1000 historians to have them list the 100 most important people of the last 1000 years for a special show at the end of 1999. They collated each list to number them from 1-100. Princess Diana actually made the list and there were a number of people during the show that noted that a hundred years from now most will wonder what folks were thinking to stick her on that list (along with Stephen Spielberg). Incidentally, Calvin, Luther, and Hitler were in the top 10 so it was a pretty decent list in the main otherwise.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you think you're implying CT but nobody here has, a single time in this thread, even come remotely close to implying Dabney is "Demon Spawn". I do not, at all, appreciate the characterization and you better guard your tone.

I think what he meant by "Demon Spawn" is that if you look at the link from the racistchurches website, or go to the drivel by Morris Disease and Southern Poverty Law Center, you will find those mentionings of Dabney.

Hermonta didn't claim anybody on this thread called Dabney that.

And yet he attached my quoted text to make that point. My assertion is that if a man is going to claim a mischaracterization he better be very careful who he is quoting when he does so.

In general everyone should be mindful of this. I know I have thought someone was disagreeing with me because they quoted my post when at times that is not what they were doing. The other day someone thought I was being critical of them personally in the politics forum the other day when I wasn't.
 
I decided to ignore all that was said in this thread because it was written by sinful persons. :eek: Oh, by the way, ignore this post for i am also a sinner. ;)
 
I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Hermonta

What is your view of Prof. Trueman's comments concerning R.L. Dabney et al?
 
I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Hermonta

What is your view of Prof. Trueman's comments concerning R.L. Dabney et al?

Very, very biased. I basically would not trust anything that I see him write, unless I saw it by someone that I trusted more.

CT
 
I do not think that closeness has much impact. I think it is more of an issue of whether or not one side or one individual is portrayed as demon spawn. A person is going to be more willing to give an inch if they know the otherside will not try to use that inch to steamroll them.

CT

Hermonta

What is your view of Prof. Trueman's comments concerning R.L. Dabney et al?

Very, very biased. I basically would not trust anything that I see him write, unless I saw it by someone that I trusted more.

CT

I wish he would stop blogging as it prejudices me against him; though some of his other work is excellent.
 
Hermonta

What is your view of Prof. Trueman's comments concerning R.L. Dabney et al?

Very, very biased. I basically would not trust anything that I see him write, unless I saw it by someone that I trusted more.

CT

I wish he would stop blogging as it prejudices me against him; though some of his other work is excellent.

:ditto: The vain and light hearted jesting that at times has come to dominate that blog has really turned me off and I rarely check it unless someone links something from it.
 
On the other side of things, I appreciate Professor Trueman's sense of humor, his reading of Orwell and Marx, and his gracious condescension in making a guest appearance on our ex-dog's blog.

I think it is one of the great strengths that we have, for instance, on this board that male model and practically Shandean humorist Bob Vigneault delivers an inimitable comic monologue from time to time.
 
Hi Pilgrim! Nice Blog entry's. I enjoyed them. It gives me a good taste of some Dabney reading to come. Thanks.
 
Thanks Pilgrim! Mega Dittos to you. I'm now reading 'The Attractions of Popery'. Great stuff - Grymir
 
If you are not from the South, than your opinion is irrelevent. In other words, you have no frame of reference, your a Yankee. Your like the clanging of symbols.:cheers:


But don't feel bad....If not for the Grace of God, I'd be a Yankee too!:lol:
 
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If you are not from the South, than your opinion is irrelevent. In other words, you have no frame of reference, your a Yankee. Your like the of clanging symbols.:cheers:


But don't feel bad....If not for the Grace of God, I'd be a Yankee too!:lol:

:lol: Very funny . . . but kindof scary, B.J. Sortof like any film by the Coen brothers.
 
If you are not from the South, than your opinion is irrelevent. In other words, you have no frame of reference, your a Yankee. Your like the clanging of symbols.:cheers:


But don't feel bad....If not for the Grace of God, I'd be a Yankee too!:lol:

I am an Ulsterman/Irishman and a supporter of the Confederate States of America (currently occupied). Does my opinion count?
 
I am an Ulsterman/Irishman and a supporter of the Confederate States of America (currently occupied). Does my opinion count?



Daniel,
Hmmmm:think:....I suppose! If you endorse the C.S.A and our efforts to free ourselves, then yes. But the first time I hear some sort of Yankee myth, its the bayonet for you.:lol:
 
Hey, I was in Texas for 20 yrs. Dabney's stomping ground even. Austin that is. Now that I've read him. He's great!! Not like the lame stuff thats out today, or as we say, he shoot's from the hip and asks questions later. (Allowed under Texas law)
 
I am an Ulsterman/Irishman and a supporter of the Confederate States of America (currently occupied). Does my opinion count?



Daniel,
Hmmmm:think:....I suppose! If you endorse the C.S.A and our efforts to free ourselves, then yes. But the first time I hear some sort of Yankee myth, its the bayonet for you.:lol:

As it happens I am working on an essay on why both sides fought [-]the civil war[/-] in the war of Northern aggression.
 
Daniel,
Let me read it once your done. By the way, have you seen the Civil War debate between Rev. Peter Marshall & Rev. Steve Wilkins? It might be a helpful source.
 
I just finished reading a book entitled:

Robert Lewis Dabney: A Southern Presbyterian Life, by Sean Michael Lucas (P & R Publishing, 2005).

Dr. Lucas teaches church history at Covenant Theological Seminary.

It is a fair treatment of Dabney's strengths and weaknesses, and ends with a most interesting comparison of Dabney with Abraham Kuyper.

I recommend this book to any interested in reading and learning more about Dabney.
 
Daniel,
Let me read it once your done. By the way, have you seen the Civil War debate between Rev. Peter Marshall & Rev. Steve Wilkins? It might be a helpful source.

The contents of that essay may be found in a number of threads in the Politics and Government forum.
 
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