Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not?

[Stephen]

The 1903 American WCF has also deleted the "synagogues of Satan" and the language in ch. 25 of the Papal Anti-Christ.

This is why as a PCA teaching elder I subscribe to the original confession and not the American edition. It would be interesting to see why the American edition elimiated this language. In my opinion it was a serious compromise. Many reformed denominations such as the RPCNA subscribe to the original confession.

 

[Stephen]

The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.

Yes, it is worshipped. The official teaching of Rome is that the bread and wine become the physical body of Christ when the priest elevates the host in the Roman mass. In the old Roman rite, that I grew up on, when the priest elevated the host, the acolyte would ring bells (which is still done in many massses) to indicate that this was the body of Christ. Many worshippers would make the sign of the cross or bow their heads (while in a posture of kneeling). After the priest would finish elevating the host he would genuflect. Roman Catholics are required to genuflect when they enter a Roman Catholic "church" because the consecrated bread from previous masses is stored in a box (tabernacle) on the main altar or side altar. At certain "services" the priest will place the consecrated host in what is called a monstrance and parade it before the people. He will leave this on a main altar for people to come for times of private adoration or worship. This is idolatry pure and simple.

I hear this, but have suggested that ignorance of this does not equal "worship of idols" for the participants. The thread continues to argue whether Catholics should be evangelized in their context but continues to miss the question. Is the mass the worship of idols? As a continuing question are we seeing the orthodox gatherings in the same light as they include icons. I still think it is wrong to dismiss these groups as engaging only in "idol worship". Wow sure feels lonely on the PB to stand alone on the question. Yikes.

It does not matter whether the worshippers are ignorant or not, they will still be judged as all men will be judged. It does not matter if it is Roman or Eastern Orthodox it is still idolatry. I have stated why it is idolatry because it is the worship of graven images or robing the LORD of His glory. It is strange worship that is not prescribed by Scripture. The reformers, especially Calvin in his treatise The Necessity of Reforming the Church state this point very clearly. If you look at the official teaching of Rome on the doctrine of the mass, it is clearly idolatry.

 

[Stephen]

I cannot disagree with the charge of idolatry (after all, doesn't just about every sin reduce to idolatry in the end?), and voted "yes" in conformity to the Reformed confessional affirmations. However, I doubt that the average Catholic sees their sacramental observance as anything other than the worship of the triune God in a way that has historical continuity with the church all the way back to the first century. Wrong? Absoloutely!

My personal preference for describing the mass is to call it the rankest form of blasphemy in that it denies the finished work of Christ, subjecting him (in their view) to a continual sacrifice and so blaspheming Christ and his atonement. Idolatry is such a general evil, encompassing practically any turning from God for any reason, blasphemy describes a bit more specifically the problem in my opinion.

You have stated the issue as well as anyone. Thank you. The mass is a denial of the finished work of Christ, so it is idolatry.

 

[Stephen]

Daniel:

Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.

Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.

What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?

What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.

 

[CDM]

Hey, I am back. This thread if read carefully wanders off target. Much has been rightly said about the errors of theology in the mass. It is universally agreed here that the mass in it's theology is wrong, badly wrong, dishonoring to Christ and his work and even despicable. But the question begs does all this necessarily equal "idol worship" intrinsically? I have been painted into a corner as if I am defending RC practice and theology. I am merely suggesting that to equate the mass to idol worship is a stretch. As the lone dissenter I thank those who have shown concern about charitable conversation but I am fine with it. I respect the opinions of those expressed and the fervency that may come through as harsh. If I may refer to the question of whether the mass should be avoided by us. If the mass in fact is biblical idol worship, I suggest then that it is forbidden by Paul to attend. He says that even though Idols are not real that worship of demons is in fact occurring at said cultic events.

I have suggested that Idol worship would require some extent of mental awareness or volition. Maybe this would be a valuable part of the conversation. I put forward this again to suggest validity to this opinion.

17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this."
19 "Go in peace," Elisha said.

Here, the prophet's theology seems to acknowledge that worship is a matter of the intellect/heart. When we say the mass equals/is idol worship are we saying it is what Paul condemns to the Corinthians. Is it equal to what YHWH forbid the ancients to do? I still see it as a leap. Again, I am not defending RC thought or practice so please refrain from dashing that straw man. Thanks again brothers and sisters.

Thanks for the answer.

Does idolatry exist today then?

And, I asked the question earlier, what does the scriptures and God say about idolaters? Are there any distinctions drawn between those that are merely in attendance at idolatrous and blasphemous ceremonies and those that are really really into it?

 

[A5pointer]

Well, seems we have a quorum 61-1 We are 62-0 that the theology of the mass is detestable. I can add that if the mass is indeed the worship of idols. It should not be attended as per Paul to the Corinthians. In this many of you are consistent some need think it through again.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Daniel:

Do you have any rc's in your family or friends? Have you ever had a choice to actually give an opinion on this thread? I am just asking here Daniel.

Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.

What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?

What I mean is that I have uncles, aunts and cousins who were nominal Protestants, but married Papists - thus they converted to become nominal Roman Catholics themselves.

They know enough about me to know that I have no time for Popery, hence the invites are not forthcoming.

 

[Theogenes]

Here's a site where people can see the wafer god via a web cam and worship in the privacy of their cubicle:
Welcome to Savior.org!

If this isn't idolatry then I don't know what is....

 

[Stephen]

Here's a site where people can see the wafer god via a web cam and worship in the privacy of their cubicle:
Welcome to Savior.org!

If this isn't idolatry then I don't know what is....

Thank you. This is what I refered to in one of my previous entries in this discussion. This is idolatry.

 

[BobVigneault]

It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?

Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?

Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006

I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Just a Note

Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.

 

[Stephen]

Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.

Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.

Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.

Sometimes it is easy to come across as more harsh than you want to be when you are writing on a discussion board. I find it easier to talk to people in the flesh, as they can see your facial expressions and hear the tone of your voice.

Recently I was talking to a fellow Northern Ireland person about why so many Evangelical and Reformed people in the USA did not object strongly to the Passion of Christ movie. He could not understand how godly men could do such a thing, but i reminded him that while I thought they were wrong, we have to remember that Christians in America are in a war with Secular Humanism, and so it is understandable that many of them would look favourable upon something that went against the secular grain - even though it was unbiblical. Maybe the same applies here.

 

[Stephen]

Thanks for the interaction in this thread. Having read the reasons why some of the brethren here would attend RC funerals - while I am certainly not convinced they are right - I will be less quick to judge in future. I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery, rather than Secular Humanism - which seems to have been what American Evangelicals have had to mostly battle against in recent years.

Brother, I appreciate your humility. I do not believe you owe anyone an apology for stating your convictions, even if you were passionate and tenacious. We all owe an apology to one another if this is the case, because many of us can come across very strong. Thank you, though for your concern for your brothers and sisters. I am speaking for myself when I say I did not get the sense that you were being judgemental.

Sometimes it is easy to come across as more harsh than you want to be when you are writing on a discussion board. I find it easier to talk to people in the flesh, as they can see your facial expressions and hear the tone of your voice.

This is the problem with bloging and all this new technology. You cannot read a person's mind or interpret their attitude or intonation by a two sentence statement, that may be filled with abreviations that most of us do not know.

Recently I was talking to a fellow Northern Ireland person about why so many Evangelical and Reformed people in the USA did not object strongly to the Passion of Christ movie. He could not understand how godly men could do such a thing, but i reminded him that while I thought they were wrong, we have to remember that Christians in America are in a war with Secular Humanism, and so it is understandable that many of them would look favourable upon something that went against the secular grain - even though it was unbiblical. Maybe the same applies here.

As Protestants we have many enemies and humanism is a major one.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Yes, I have a few relatives who are RCs. They have never even asked me to attend their weddings, Christenings etc, as they know I would refuse.

What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?

What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.

Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.

Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery

There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.

Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

 

[KMK]

We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.

 

[Amazing Grace]

We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.

Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.

 

[KMK]

We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a Presbyterian attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.

Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.

Error is different than idolatry. Otherwise we could never worship at any church anywhere except some hypothetically 'error free' Baptist church.

I am not sure what your point is. Who is the 'they' to whom you are referring? They on this thread who would attend Mass or they who are RCs who attend Mass?

 

[Amazing Grace]

I think this is different. A Freewill Baptist church may be in error, but you have no idea whether there will be idol worship going on inside. But with the celebration of the mass by the RCC, you know for sure, w/o setting foot inside the building, that there shall be idol worship going on.

Yet an error or untruth is error. The problem Ken is I know it is idolatry, but they dont, hence they go.

Error is different than idolatry. Otherwise we could never worship at any church anywhere except some hypothetically 'error free' Baptist church.

I am not sure what your point is. Who is the 'they' to whom you are referring? They on this thread who would attend Mass or they who are RCs who attend Mass?

I never thought it was different, Ill chew on this a tad. I do not know if it is different. Look at how many baptism threads on this board have ended in turmoil. How could a strict padeo even think of attending a credo baptism or vice versa and not partake in the perceived sin?

disclaimer, i am not saying it is, but for some who have vehemently wrote on either side against the other, very few have said this, but we all know they believe it!!! SO just as some will not call the others 'odinance/sacrament' a sin in order to remain friends, why not attend the fineral of a family member or friend?

The 'they' are the rc members who go. They have no clue, most of them, what their church teaches!!!! Therefore when they send the invite, it never crosses their mind, unless it is Daniel, that this may pose a conflict.

I attended a Bar Mitvah twice. I did not leave their with a yamulke stapled to my head!!!

 

[SueS]

We live near Steubenville, Ohio, the home of the (in)famous Franciscan University, a centre of old-style Catholicism and the place where the idea of Mary as co-redemptris originated. It's a very Catholic town.

This evening while out shopping, dh and I saw a young man sporting a sweatshirt with the words, "Mary, I belong to thee: All I have is thine"

I was forced into the RCC when my widowed dad remarried a Catholic. I remember the praying to statues and my stepmother informing me that the RCC was "the only church".

My half sister recently wrote to us speaking with joy about how her family engages in "Eucharistic adoration", which is something that is being promoted right now. It involves praying to the wafer in the belief that it is Jesus.

When this sister was married she placed a special bouquet at the foot of the statue of Mary as a gesture of worship. I have seen this done at other RC weddings as well.

If this isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!

 

[SueS]

I attended the funeral mass of my dad three years ago. Surprisingly, when it came time to take communion it was open to all who wanted to participate. My son-in-law took part in it, believing it to be communion as he knew it (he's the son of our former pastor and should have known better!!). Sarah, my husband, and I stayed in our seats because we DID know.

It's interesting that, through my membership in the Civic Choir, I sang in two VERY expensive Catholic weddings - we're talking mega-bucks - for the same family. I was rather uncomfortable participating in the first one and a bit indignant that the congregation didn't have the class to stand when we sang the Hallelueia Chorus, but by the time we did the second wedding I was well on my way to becoming Reformed and was totally weirded out by it. Sarah and I both agreed that we'd never participate in another such event.

 

[jaybird0827]

Yes, it is worship idolatry.

Don't go there.

 

[VictorBravo]

It's interesting that, through my membership in the Civic Choir, I sang in two VERY expensive Catholic weddings - we're talking mega-bucks - for the same family. I was rather uncomfortable participating in the first one and a bit indignant that the congregation didn't have the class to stand when we sang the Hallelueia Chorus, but by the time we did the second wedding I was well on my way to becoming Reformed and was totally weirded out by it. Sarah and I both agreed that we'd never participate in another such event.

Heh, we quit a Lutheran-sponsored choir when they started singing Masses instead of Bach and other good Protestant composers. A lot of other people did too (not necessarily from reformed churches, either) which was encouraging and surprising for our area.

 

[historyb]

Ready - Fire - Aim!

Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?

Would this one work:

Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)

Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I can tell you being lost in the RCC once the wafer is worshiped.

 

[Galatians220]

It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?

Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006

I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.

Sure do look like it! I can almost smell the arsenic! (But Bawb's not as much of a threat to "Benny & the Jets" - the latter being the college of cardinals and the Swiss Guard - as some of us are!)

Margaret

P. S. In a post way above, Randy stated my case eloquently: it's not a problem for him or for some others of you to attend a Catholic mass because you all don't have the history of having been caught in Catholicism as a child, knowing you have to escape and not being able to do so because, well, you're 7 years old and your parents won't let you. I do think I have some PTSD from the RCC; it makes me feel as though I'm turning my back on the Lord who delivered me from that. My conscience simply doesn't permit it. As an ex-gay should stay away from gay bars, so I won't go into a Catholic church. Not that I have any fears of being drawn back into it (truth be told, it's more likely that I'll grow another head than it is that I'll return to "Mother Rome") - it's just that it was the scene of my past forced and not-so-forced participation in blasphemy. Randy, if you're reading this, thank you for bringing up this angle above and stating it the way you did.

http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&ref=12

 

[Galatians220]

When this sister was married she placed a special bouquet at the foot of the statue of Mary as a gesture of worship. I have seen this done at other RC weddings as well.

If this isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!

I did the same thing at our wedding. My mother had done it at hers, and my grandmother at hers... In our neighborhood, for weddings at that particular church (10,000 members), the florists would just automatically prepare a "Mary's bouquet" for the bride to place on the Mary altar with all of the other wedding flowers. It wasn't an option; you just did it.

Thankfully and only by His grace, the Lord has cast that horrible act of mine from His remembrance "as far as the east is from the west..." - and I am forgiven. I did it in ignorance and for "tradition's sake," but I should have hung tough to my real beliefs and not done it at all.

Thanks, SueS... And may God bless you for your witness.

Margaret

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

It's no secret that Joe and I are pretty close. Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that Joe wasn't just close but that he was my biological dad. Are you saying that if he dies I shouldn't go to his funeral?

Father's Day, Tennessee, 2006

I believe that the Pope is trying to poison Bawb.

Sure do look like it! I can almost smell the arsenic! (But Bawb's not as much of a threat to "Benny & the Jets" - the latter being the college of cardinals and the Swiss Guard - as some of us are!)

Margaret

P. S. In a post way above, Randy stated my case eloquently: it's not a problem for him or for some others of you to attend a Catholic mass because you all don't have the history of having been caught in Catholicism as a child, knowing you have to escape and not being able to do so because, well, you're 7 years old and your parents won't let you. I do think I have some PTSD from the RCC; it makes me feel as though I'm turning my back on the Lord who delivered me from that. My conscience simply doesn't permit it. As an ex-gay should stay away from gay bars, so I won't go into a Catholic church. Not that I have any fears of being drawn back into it (truth be told, it's more likely that I'll grow another head than it is that I'll return to "Mother Rome") - it's just that it was the scene of my past forced and not-so-forced participation in blasphemy. Randy, if you're reading this, thank you for bringing up this angle above and stating it the way you did.

http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&ref=12

I just wanna know if I can turn purple like the Pope and Bawb if I go drinkin with them. It looks Royal.

And You are very welcome Margaret. Btw, I appreciate your witness For Christ's Crown and Covenant.

 

[kvanlaan]

Why, in the photo with Bob, does Joe have a warty/wrinkly left hand and a heck of a manicure on the other..... ??????

I am not implying any disingenuousness on Bob's part with regards to the photo. I just think there's more to Joe than meets the eye.

 

[BobVigneault]

I fixed that Randy. The web doesn't like CMYK jpegs.

Kevin, we've learned not to talk about the 'pretty' hand. I suggest you do the same if you wish to avoid a visit from the Swiss Guard. (Don't be fooled by their fruity pajama uniforms.