Never, Never, Never Shake a Prophetess

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Let me share what it was like in that movement for me.

In the beginning, there was great excitement and expectation of the immenance of God. He wasn't someone far off, but someone near and something everyone experienced together. There was an ever present expectation that the Lord would do something wonderful for His people.

The men and women of importance were quickly recognzied. And there accompanied a fear of them that was not godly. One became afraid to question or speak against by way of criticism anything that went on.

There was very, very little Bible teaching. In the school I was in it was boasted that if we wanted to study the Bible we should go to a Bible school. The school we were in was a school of ministry. I should have taken their advice, but you see now the depth of deception.

This led me to a great famine for the Word of God. I sought the Word of the Lord in the prophesies given by others or those who were called prophets or apostles. In the church I attended, MorningStar, there were "prophetic booths" set up at the end of every service. A person could go and get a number and wait for their turn to go into the booth where 2 or 3 people, men and women, where there to pray for you and prophesy to you. This is how I often sought the will of God for my life.

The experience was miserable for the most part. I was confused most of the time about God's will for me. I did read the Scriptures on my own and prayed often. After 2+ years in this movement the Spirit of God opened my eyes to the falsehood of the movement. There were two events that happened. The frist was Rick Joyner publically saying he saw God the Father. Much of the teaching there to an untrained person is subtlley unbiblical. But this was blatant and sent a shockwave through me.

The second was from reading 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

All SCRIPTURE is sufficient. My school taught me that they were a school of ministry to equip students for the work of the ministry, so leave your Bibles at home! The Scripture IS what is given by God so that the man of God may be fully equipped for all good works. The Scripture is sufficient. Sola Scriptura! It was this that shattered the whole philosophy of the school and ministry of this church for me and I took my family out of it and began daily to search and study the Scriptures.

Hopefully this can help some of you understand those who are caught in a movement like this. Pray for them. If God gives you chance, show them Christ in the Scriptures, because they are being led away from Him by other means, which are ungodly and do not lead to Jesus.

-RB

PS. Sorry for the bad English. Do 3 things at once. I will edit it later. lol
 
Geoff, I take the attitude that scripture takes. My heart goes out with sadness and compassion for the lost sheep that have been trapped by these people. But for the teachers, the so-called shepherds I make no apology in saying it would be better that they have a mill stone tied around their necks and thrown into the sea. May they be struck mute before they cause one more of God's children to stumble.

Most likely they will not be struck mute. But you are wealthy. You are full. You have good meat and vegetables, but those folks are eating stale bread and drinking from cesspools...and they don't even know it.

The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord. I am sure there are folks out there trying to reach these people. I am prob not going to try to start a ministry to them. But as the Lord gives us opportunity, if the Lord gives you an opportunity, I pray that He give you some words for them to warn them about what they are involved with and point them back to Christ.

RB
 
The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.

Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the "ordination".

I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.
 
I agree Panting Donkey Machete,.... huh, I better stick to JD. I have a great burden for the lost but sometimes it would just be better for the glory stealing Herods to be eaten out by worms or the Annanias' to drop dead on the spot. As long as God is glorified I'm at peace.
 
The lady in the video, as best I can tell, is not a leader. She is a sheep. She may not even know the Lord.

Dear brother, I must respectfully disagree - the woman is clearly deferred to as an authority/leader/spokesperson/prophet in the "ordination".

I do indeed pray for her deliverance and repentance or for God to strike her down in the midst of the abomination to His glory.


Do you love her? How much do you know about this movment to understand that their concept of ordination is in any fashion the same as yours? Do you feel compassion for her? I do. I have in my hear the love of God for her. As I do all those in that movement and who are decieved by it. It is the kind of rhetoric I see on these boards, and they do see it from time to time, that helps keep them in.

God has nothing to do with what is going on in that service. Are you also praying for God to kill Jehovah Witnesses? Mormons? Who also blashpheme in their abominations before the Lord?

I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.
 
Also - Geoff - praise God that you were working out your own salvation with fear and trembling and that God gave you discernment. My spirit is truly grieved over the many that are still trapped or newly caught up in this mess.
 
I agree Panting Donkey Machete,.... huh, I better stick to JD. I have a great burden for the lost but sometimes it would just be better for the glory stealing Herods to be eaten out by worms or the Annanias' to drop dead on the spot. As long as God is glorified I'm at peace.

I did not see, nor do I see in the video, anything that smacks of glory stealing or lying to the Holy Spirit of something they promised to give but would hold back. But may God be glorified in all things. Mocking these people and calling them names and calling for their destruction, in what I have seen on these threads, does not in my opinion glorify God.
 
RB said:
I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.

If she were only an enemy against me, I would certainly follow the scriptural mandate and pray for her despite my offense, but I believe the Psalmic template of imprecatory prayer is appropriate if she is a willing authority/leader.

Even in deception, she is culpable. Even though my spirit is grieved for her.
 
I do not pray for God to kill her brother, but to save her. I pray for God to have mercy upon her and forgive her, because she does not know what she is doing. I will not ask God to destroy her.

If she were only an enemy against me, I would certainly follow the scriptural mandate and pray for her despite my offense, but I believe the Psalmic template of imprecatory prayer is appropriate if she is a willing authority/leader.

Even in deception, she is culpable. Even though my spirit is grieved for her.

I am glad that when I was the enemy of God, He did not set His heart on my destruction. Nor can we know if this woman for certain is marked out for destruction. So, while you in your prayers are imprecating, I in mine will be supplicating. :lol:
 
Ditto to Bob and Dog Machete Pantibulatorer.

My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck. This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence. May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.

This kind of callous response helped, I believe, keep me in the movement longer than needed. Your words are mere fleshly persecution of the real work of God in their eyes. Remember my brother, the anger of man (even if he think it be right) does not bring about the righteousness of God.

Their false doctrine ought not to be treated lightly, I agree. But all you have done in this reply of yours, is show how you would just be angry with them. It will not work. It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them. It was not his way with me. Yes brother, call them the repentance. Please do so, but weep when they do not come. Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not?

I am among the "chosen frozen" now brother, but let this calumny be given us because of our temperance, and not the coldness of heart for those who perish.
 
And Geoff, I know you have an empathy for those caught up in the error. We don't want to minimize that genuine concern, in fact we all share it.

However, we are unyielding in our position concerning false teachers, just as Paul was.
 
I am glad that when I was the enemy of God, He did not set His heart on my destruction. Nor can we know if this woman for certain is marked out for destruction. So, while you in your prayers are imprecating, I in mine will be supplicating. :lol:

:) - I am nor sure it is an either/or :)

..maybe a both/and? :D
 
Geoff, respectfully, you're missing the point. We want nothing more than for these folks to be granted repentance. However, if God doesn't want that, then we'd ask that he remove them, in His mercy, so that the destruction they're sowing will not be reaped by the blind and ignorant folk who have sat under their "teaching."

Maybe I am missing the point. I don't see how making fun of them leads to anything good. But your point here is well taken, I understand it, and agree with it. I guess what I was driving at was something like this Climbing Joyner's Gnostic Mountain

I am not endorsing that ministry, but its things like that that God used to help someone like me who was in that movement.
 
The accusations you've made about me are slander. Nowhere have I said that one should "delight" in the death of the wicked. Nor was my response "calloused," "fleshly persecution," or the "anger of man." Each of you aforementioned assertions are a complete misunderstanding of my zeal for these false teachers to be silenced. I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul when he pronounces "Anathema" on false teachers. Your accusations against me are unfounded and without merit. You should really reconsider. I have mocked no one. I have simply made observations of the tomfoolery and blasphemy of these wolves in sheep's clothing.


My criticism isn't toward the ignorant seized by this wickedness; rather it is against these snakes in the "pulpit" spreading false hope, engaging in ungodly euphoric phenomena (not of the Holy Spirit), and pushing others to do it, all while gaining a buck.

This rhetoric will only embolden those caught in the movement. I find your wording of calling those "seized by this wickedness" "ignorant" both offense and irresponsible in the use of language. There is hardly a manner you can use that term where the negative connotation of it will not be percieved.

This requires righteous anger on the part of orthodox Christians. These people are false teachers of the worst sort. They blaspheme the Triune God, minimize (and sometimes altogether throw out) the work of Christ in healing SOULS, and they act as if the Holy Ghost is a commodity for them to commandeer! Shame on them! Wretched be their names so that they may lose all their influence.

I think it requires love. But righteous anger is understandable. Your words do not, however, give me that impression. Wretched be their names? Again, I am thinking of this from the point of view of one who was in that movement. If heard this kind of language from a christian I would have labeled them a pharisee and walked on.

May great loss and discomfort come to them, so that they might be humbled before the thrice Holy God, Who can save even them, in His Mercy. But let us never sugar coat their wicked demagoguery over the blind masses. Call them to repentance, and if they'll not have it, may they recieve what all men born of Adam deserve.

Again, more of the same. I don't see an ounce of compassion in this. Again, blind masses? Most of the folks in that movement are Christians. May they receive what all men born of Adam deserve? Dear Lord man, where is the compassion?

Your response does not give the impression of any gentleness at all my brother. Therefore, I maintain that it is callous. Nor did I say you were fleshly persecuting them, whatever that means, but that's how it would be percieved by those in the movement.

And that I don't see in your reply either the nature of Christ or of an apostle, doesn't mean I am slandering you. And in this you say, "I hope the things you've said about me you wouldn't also apply to the Apostle Paul.." is utterly amazing to me that you feel you can speak upon the same level and in the same spirit as an Apostle? Even the Apostle Paul? What?!?

Since the Aposlte Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit of the Living God, such that what is penned by his hand is the Word of God, and not men, no sir, I will not say such things concerning an apostle of Christ or a prophet for that matter. But you are neither an apostle nor a prophet.

Where is the false Gospel they preach? Are they preaching a Gospel of works? Are they denying the Son? How are they perverting justification by faith alone? I never heard a Gospel of works there. Perhaps I missed it. I never heard a denial of Jesus as the Son of God, Messiah, or God come in the flesh. I have never heard a denial of the Holy Trinity, or a denial of Scriptures being the Word of God.

But I did hear false teaching. And their focus is wrong. And there is a false spirit there. There is a spirit at work in them, but it is not the Spirit of God.

I am not convinced brother that I have slandered you. I have disagreed with your rhetoric. I am usually in the habit of saying that such a thing is how it seems to me. I did not do that in my reply to you, and for that I am sorry. My reply then came accross as an absolute statement, and it was not meant that way.

You can dismiss my exhortation to you to exhibit more gentleness with those you find in the movement. You may think your blast of the leaders is righteous indignation, but it will not be percieved by the "sheep" as such. Did you not read my above reply...how they live in fear of even speaking against these leaders? How will you lead them out...by your above rhetoric?

I think there is a place for strong words, but they must be seasoned with mercy and gentleness and understanding. This is what I am trying to communicate in this thread.
 
here is my humble plea, from one who knows - let's not get caught up defending our respective views that we lose sight of our fellowship. Please.
 
This kind of callous response helped, I believe, keep me in the movement longer than needed. Your words are mere fleshly persecution of the real work of God in their eyes. Remember my brother, the anger of man (even if he think it be right) does not bring about the righteousness of God.

Their false doctrine ought not to be treated lightly, I agree. But all you have done in this reply of yours, is show how you would just be angry with them. It will not work. It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them. It was not his way with me. Yes brother, call them the repentance. Please do so, but weep when they do not come. Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not?

I am among the "chosen frozen" now brother, but let this calumny be given us because of our temperance, and not the coldness of heart for those who perish.

I characterized your reply as callous. Not YOU. So this is hardly slander.

I clamined your WORDS are flesh persecution IN THEIR EYES, trying to give you how your WORDS would be percieved. Again, no slander. no defamation. I have not attacked your character but questioned and made a judgment on how I believe your words would be percieved.

To give an exhortation that the anger of man does not bring the righteousness of God does not slander you. Your reply to me seemed angry. But I did not accuse you as having unroghteous anger. I can see how this could be implied based on the context of our discussion, but it is itself an exhortation, and a correct one, and not an accusation.

Nor did I accuse you of delighting in the death of the wicked. I wrote, "Should your soul delight in the death of the wicked when God's will not? " It was a question for the purpose of reflection. If it had been written as, "Your soul is delighting in the death of the wicked, when God's doesn't" Then that woudl be an accusation. But it was a question, and not an accusation, although I can see how it could be read that way.

Now, if we are clear that I have not actually accused you of any falsehood or wrongdoing or sin, are we agreed that I have have not slandered you?
 
It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them.
This is God's way, brother:

2Jn 1:7-11 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (8) Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. (9) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, (11) for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Doesn't call for a whole lot of sympathy for the promulgators of such heresy by my reading. And those in this video are the ringleaders.
 
If my reply is "calloused," my words "fleshly," and "the anger of man," then by extention I am those things. BTW, I'm not angry. Tone and tenor are very difficult to discern over such a medium as the internet. I can assure you, I'm not angry. But the ways in which you characterize my posts, are implications of characterizations about my person.

Just because you don't perceive something as compassion because it's not using the language of "love," doesn't mean there is no compassion. I have nothing but compassion for lost sinners. I was one once. But I am also zealous for false teachers to be silenced. Why? Because of my compassion for those who are caught up in their web of deceit.

It is not insulting to call the folks caught up in this mess ignorant or the like. Rather, it simply means that they don't know any better. You have accused me (and other contributors) of mockery, callousness, compassionlessness, etc. simply because you don't like the language employed.

We are going to have to diagree then. I disagree that it is not insulting to call people ignorant. Your appeal to meaning is denotative. It is the connotative meaning that is hardly unavoidable. I have accused no one of anything, nor have I slandered them, or defamed them at all. I have criticized the rhetoric and still find much of it to be empty of compassion.

I would also exhort you my beloved brother to be careful in your zeal. I find in some cases in this thread language used in a manner that would never, in my opinion, lead a person or a leader in the movement out of that movement. And my opinion is from one who was in it.

As you have allowed yourself the courtesy that tone and tenor is difficult to convey over this medium, then please extend to me that same courtesy. My reply to you which caused your response both here and elsewhere to accuse me of slander is not true because my own meaning was not slander; as you readily admit was taken by implication and not by straightforward language.
 
It is not, in my opinion, God's way with them.
This is God's way, brother:

2Jn 1:7-11 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (8) Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. (9) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, (11) for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Doesn't call for a whole lot of sympathy for the promulgators of such heresy by my reading. And those in this video are the ringleaders.

Perhaps I need to listen to the video again. I don't recall them teaching that Jesus is not come in the flesh. Nor do I agree that you can use this Scripture as a proof text to withhold sympathy from people. Nor do I see it, by the Scripture, that God's way is this way. He causes His rain to fall on the just and unjust alike. He is kind and compassionate to all, both the righteous and the wicked. It is by His example that I am exhorted to love my enemies and so be called the son of the Father.

I brought a message of compassion to this thread because I percieved in its rhetoric that absence of it. I believe if we want to reach people caught in heresy, false teaching, or a cult then we must preach the whole counsel of God. We must strive at becoming confomred to the image of Christ who is full of grace and truth, mercy and judgment.
 
One last thought to everyone. It is obvious to me that some of my replies are emotional reactions because I was once in this movement. I apologize for that. I do not apologize for my plea for more compassion in rhetoric and thinking, but I do apologize that my posts were reactionary rather than instructive and constructive to my point.

Blessings to all.

RB
 
Thank you for the last post. The temperature was heating up so fast, I was just about ready to close the thread.

MODERATOR'S NOTE TO ALL! PLEASE PLAY NICE IN THE SANDBOX.
 
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