Pictures of Christ

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BertMulder

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In the light of the 2nd commandment, and the explanation thereof, which we confess in the Heidelberg Catechism, are pictures of Christ, and manger scenes allowed?
 
The answer is explicitly NO

Heidelberg Catechism:

35. Lord's Day

Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?

Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

(a) Deut.4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Deut.4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deut.4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, Deut.4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: Deut.4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Isa.40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? Isa.40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. Isa.40:20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved. Isa.40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? Isa.40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Isa.40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. Isa.40:24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. Isa.40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Rom.1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom.1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. (b) 1 Sam.15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. Deut.12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Deut.12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. Deut.12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Matt.15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?

Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: (a) but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them. (b)

(a) Isa.40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. (b) Exod.23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. Exod.23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. Exod.34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: Exod.34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exod.34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods. Num.33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: Deut.7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. Deut.12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Deut.16:21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. 2 Kin.18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 2 Kin.18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?

Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dump images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word. (b)

(a) Jer.10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Hab.2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Hab.2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. (b) Rom.10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 2 Pet.1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim.3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Start reading here at leaf 614: Internet Archive: Details: The commentary of Zacharias Ursinus on the Heidelberg catechism

Read from pages 517 to 536
 
Just wondering. It seems the majority of "Christianity" would have no problem with pictures of Jesus, etc. Generally speaking, why is that? Is it a misunderstanding of the interpretation of the scripture? a disregard for what the scriptures teach? a law vs grace thing? All of the above? None of the above?
 
Just wondering. It seems the majority of "Christianity" would have no problem with pictures of Jesus, etc. Generally speaking, why is that? Is it a misunderstanding of the interpretation of the scripture? a disregard for what the scriptures teach? a law vs grace thing? All of the above? None of the above?

Personally I believe it to be general ignorance. Or at least it was so for me. If more Christians went back to the confessions this problem and many others I believe would be solved.
 
Just wondering. It seems the majority of "Christianity" would have no problem with pictures of Jesus, etc. Generally speaking, why is that? Is it a misunderstanding of the interpretation of the scripture? a disregard for what the scriptures teach? a law vs grace thing? All of the above? None of the above?

Maybe it is a weak Christian vs. stronger Christian thing? Don't do anything to offend the weaker brother.
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.

Chris Coldwell provided some very good links in another thread dealing with this issue. If I remember correctly the gist of the argument ran like this: If you make an image of God (nativity scene) and it causes you to have worshipful thoughts towards God then it violates the 2nd commandment, but if it does not cause you to have worshipful thoughts towards God then it violates the 3rd commandment.
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.


I use to use the weak argument until I saw a lady have a picture of Christ in her apartment window. She taped it so that everyone could see it when they drove by. It was obvious that she wanted to create some sort of emotional response.

It was at this time that I realized that every image or figure was made to create an emotional response. This is idolatry, plain and simple.
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.


I use to use the weak argument until I saw a lady have a picture of Christ in her apartment window. She taped it so that everyone could see it when they drove by. It was obvious that she wanted to create some sort of emotional response.

It was at this time that I realized that every image or figure was made to create an emotional response. This is idolatry, plain and simple.

In her mind it was probably an attempt at evangelism.
 
WLC Q. 109. What sins are forbidden in the second commandment?
A.
The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.​

Attended a PCA worship service in Ohio recently, which projected a picture supposedly of "Jesus" on a screen at the beginning of the service.

How do ministers and elder ignore their ordination vows and confessional standards?

-----Added 12/24/2008 at 01:44:41 EST-----

In her mind it was probably an attempt at evangelism.

Well intentioned sin!
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.


I use to use the weak argument until I saw a lady have a picture of Christ in her apartment window. She taped it so that everyone could see it when they drove by. It was obvious that she wanted to create some sort of emotional response.

It was at this time that I realized that every image or figure was made to create an emotional response. This is idolatry, plain and simple.

In her mind it was probably an attempt at evangelism.

Yeah I am sure her intentions were good, but still wrong.
 
Usually when one asks the question 'why' one will receive an answer that borders on idolatry or is idolatrous.

The best reason I could think that one would want/need to have a picture of Christ is that we can see that Jesus was human. But if one needs a picture of Christ to teach that Christ was human then the Bible is not sufficient. (inspired by the Heidelberg Catechism, Q&A 98)
 
I have a picture of Christ that my Dad had when he was alive and a manger scene on the TV, I suspect I will get flamed for not being a good puritan. Well I'm not a puritan :) and I love the holidays and like everything else that a lot here might not like. I'm downright a rebel :)
 
JohnGill is the cat in your avatar shooting people setting up Nativity scenes and celebrating Christmas? :lol:
 
I have a picture of Christ that my Dad had when he was alive and a manger scene on the TV, I suspect I will get flamed for not being a good puritan. Well I'm not a puritan :) and I love the holidays and like everything else that a lot here might not like. I'm downright a rebel :)
:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Up here in the north there is a quite popular exhibition that some churches arrange. It is called "Ecce Homo" and it depicts Christ in all sorts of perverse situations, gay, lesbian you name it.

The liberals keep asking for biblical references that forbid such depictions of Christ. They feel that they aren't violating anything. Of course, the Bible forbids homosexual practices but what the liberals point out is that these kind of depictions of Christ aren't forbidden.

No one mentions the second commandment because here everybody assumes that it only concerns depictions of the Father. Because of this, I too have been hesitant to refer to the second commandment even though I intuitively have felt that it is being violated.
 
I think that the issue is really important when the nativity scene is the focal point of a worship service. The normal way people believe that they are not in breach of the second commandment is that they are not worshipping the image, this is a very weak argument when to all intents and purposes you are.


I use to use the weak argument until I saw a lady have a picture of Christ in her apartment window. She taped it so that everyone could see it when they drove by. It was obvious that she wanted to create some sort of emotional response.

It was at this time that I realized that every image or figure was made to create an emotional response. This is idolatry, plain and simple.

In her mind it was probably an attempt at evangelism.

I think this is really where the rubber meets the road with most churches with their doctrine.

Meaning if they refuse to preach that having a picture/panting/statutes of God or any other person that they would pray to in their homes and or churches, how can they say that they are preaching God's word. As you all can see from my Post, I live in "Mary Land" and Catholics are all around me.

My wife comes from a Catholic family, and one year her mother gave us a large painting of what was suppose to be Christ.

I wouldn't have it! But now we were in a sticky situation with her mother. My wife believes that her mother is a Christian.

My answers is how can she be if she won't give up her idols.

So my historic opinion is that if a person refuses to give up their Idols, then the issue is not that they have week faith, but do to the fact that they are refuses to obey the clear commands of God that most likely they have no faith, or at least they are acting out of unbelief. This is obvious, and those who preach otherwise are sugar coating the issue and not wanting to offend these peoples idol worship.

In the OT, we have lots and lots of examples of great men destroying such idols, and not being ashamed of the fact that they did it, even though there relatives wanted to kill them afterwords.

Should we not do the same?
 
I have a picture of Christ that my Dad had when he was alive and a manger scene on the TV, I suspect I will get flamed for not being a good puritan. Well I'm not a puritan :) and I love the holidays and like everything else that a lot here might not like. I'm downright a rebel :)

I know lots of people that keep a self-portrait of a 12th-century Danish painter in their home. That guy must have been quite the artist for all these people to venerate him in such a way. His momma must be proud!
 
Just wondering. It seems the majority of "Christianity" would have no problem with pictures of Jesus, etc. Generally speaking, why is that? Is it a misunderstanding of the interpretation of the scripture? a disregard for what the scriptures teach? a law vs grace thing? All of the above? None of the above?

Maybe it is a weak Christian vs. stronger Christian thing? Don't do anything to offend the weaker brother.

I don't think that is the case here. I think weak brother/strong brother thing applies to matters that can actually be questionable (meat to idols, drink, etc.). Here it is clear, and not left to the conscience, as is the weak brother/strong brother issue.

-----Added 2/11/2009 at 07:49:22 EST-----

I know lots of people that keep a self-portrait of a 12th-century Danish painter in their home. That guy must have been quite the artist for all these people to venerate him in such a way. His momma must be proud!

:lol:
 
The problem begins when we have convinced ourselves that we are to celebrate His birth on Dec 25th. Has never instructed us to set aside a day to do this. He gave us instructions concerning His death and resurrection and we follow those instructions. Why add to what He gave to us already? This is where the idolatry beings. Why not celebrate Christmas as a special time with family and friends, a time which God penetrates as He should with every gathering? Enjoy all that the holiday gives without making it idolatrous, and thus, escape the severest of idolatry: images of Christ. :2cents:
 
About the only exception I'd make would be depictions that are obvious representations, such as light glowing from a manger in fine art -- I think that the artist in that case is trying to celebrate the incarnation of Christ, a miracle that deserves our reflection. An actual picture of a blue-eyed young man on your wall? No way!

Opps -- this is Jwithnell posting; my husband was the last one signed on ..
 
Backwoods Presbyterian;


I know lots of people that keep a self-portrait of a 12th-century Danish painter in their home. That guy must have been quite the artist for all these people to venerate him in such a way. His momma must be proud!

I know many people who have portraits of themselves, their wives and their children and grandchildren in their homes and who send them to their parents and grandparents and brothers and sisters and friends, should we think the same way concerning them? Or is it only because it is a 'self-portrait' that's its different??

If we are to follow the letter of the law..then wouldn't this apply to even pictures of ourselves and our children and family members and friends??

Or is it only that we should not make such an image and say..this is what God looks like?

15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian;


I know lots of people that keep a self-portrait of a 12th-century Danish painter in their home. That guy must have been quite the artist for all these people to venerate him in such a way. His momma must be proud!

I know many people who have portraits of themselves, their wives and their children and grandchildren in their homes and who send them to their parents and grandparents and brothers and sisters and friends..should we think the same way concerning them? Or is it only because it is a 'self-portrait' that's its different??

If we are to follow the letter of the law..then this would apply to even pictures of ourselves and our children and family members and friends..should it not??

15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

The reference to the 12th-century Danish painter was in reference to the story that the picture that we see often appropriated to look like "Jesus" is actually the self-portrait of the painter mentioned above. What people often associate "Jesus" looking like is just this guy, hence the "his mom must be proud" comment.

Your selection of that passage is completely out of context. Do you worship your family's pictures? Is family a part of the Godhead?
 
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Backwoods Presbyterian;


The reference to the 12th-century Danish painter was in reference to the story that the picture that we see often appropriated to look like "Jesus" is actually the self-portrait of the painter mentioned above. What people often associate "Jesus" looking like is just this guy, hence the "his mom must be proud" comment.

I did not know that..

Your selection of that passage is completely out of context. Do you worship your family's pictures? Is family a part of the Godhead?

How is it taken out of context? While, I do not worship my family pictures, I do know many people, who when their is the threat of floods/hurricanes and such in the area---people make sure to pack at least some of their family pictures..

When I've heard interviews of people who have experienced house fires, tornado's and other such disasters--they are thankful to be alive--but they wish they could have saved the pictures because those can't be replaced--other things in the house can be replaced..but not the family pictures--so while they may not 'worship' them, are they not in some way looking at them as an idol???
 
Right. But we can make anything an idol. Our hearts and minds are idol factories. It is not the picture of our families fault we idolize it. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with pictures of family.
 
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Right. But we can make anything an idol. Our hearts and minds are idol factories. It is not the picture of our families fault we idolize it. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with pictures of family.

Hezekiah had to smash the bronze serpent into pieces, the same serpent that God Himself commissioned to be made.
 
How about this:

A Picture of Jesus is best found in the Lord's Supper (no I am not talking about apparitions or stigmata's…like seeing Jesus in a peace of toast) and the word…biblical visible signs given to the church…in order to avoid the next point.

In Brief: Trying to picture Christ is a form of the Nestorian heresy (separating the two natures of Christ). Since he is fully God/Man an attempt to picture him fails to fulfill both requirements…creating a false Christ. People may have decent motives but the point still stands, you cannot capture his deity mingled with his humanity and one still has no idea what he looked like physically. The idea is that when NT man saw Christ they saw a fully God/Man Christ, the real deal of which there are no orthodox substitutes.
 
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