Gifts of the Spirit.

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Author of my Faith

Puritan Board Freshman
Tongues/Prophesy/Healing/Miracles.

Coming out of the Charismatic Movement I am still trying to find out what is Biblical and what is not. I want Theology not Zoology but I have to be convinced by Scripture Alone.

I just heard a sermon by John MacArthur on Miracles/Healings/Tongues and he makes a very strong and persuassive argument that these "sign" gifts passed away witht he apostolic age. The only mention of tongues in the first and second century church after the Apostles were gone were from heretical sects such as Montanis and his two prophetesses.

I have seen and heard so much emphasis on Signs and Wonders and healing and tongues. Yet I see men of God dying and nobody heals them. I do know people who have been healed by God through prayer but not through a person claiming to have The gift of healing. I have always said if you have the gift of healing go empty out the hospital.

I am on the fence with tongues. I was young in the Lord and everyone told me I had to have the gift and it was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. I prayed, fasted, cried and wanted it so bad but for a few years nothing happened. I met a sister who said she could help and she prayed over me and said that I had to release it. It was already in side. I tried but could not find it inside. A few weeks later I was praying alone and wanted it so bad I muttered a sound. I did it again and again and thought to myself, I have it this is it. But was not sure. I spoke to someone and they told me that by faith just keep doing it. I did and began to speak with these words and when people found out they were so happy. But nothing ever really changed and I never really felt evidence of any change or benefit. I was todl to pray that way because it was "praying in the spirit" in my personal prayer language. But I never found that verse. I guess it is in the Book of Hezekiah but I have not gotten to that book yet. :)

I belive that I so desired this gift that I convicned myself that I had it and forced myself to do it thinking it was by faith. I think I was hoodwinked. Now I do not speak in the jibberish anylonger because I do not really believe I ever recieved this gift FROM God or is it really a gift?

I know some who even adhere to Sola Scriptura but say they still believe in the gifts and practice speaking in toungues.

I just want to be Biblical, not denominational or indoctrinated. I have never really looked into this topic in the way John MacCarthur presented it because I simply believed that there was not one verse that said the gifts ceased. But I am leaning in that direction just based on my experience. I have seen so much over emphasis yet so little results or changed lives in this area of the sign gifts.

If you were trying to show a brother that the sign gifts infact passed away with the Apostolic age what scritpures or writings would you recommend? Again I do believe God can and does still heal, and that miracles can happen. I just do not think it is the norm.

Thanks

Steve
 
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
The context of this passage is that concerning the ignorance of the Christians in the church at Corinth regarding the relationship between gifts and graces. Paul reminds them that they can have extraordinary, phenomenal gifts and yet be destitute of love and thus be lost in their sins (vss. 1-3).
“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” ( 1 John 4:8)

Paul states at the end of the chapter in verse 13 that “love is the greatest”. Why is love the greatest? Because love never fails. Love will accompany you all the way into the eternal state. Not so with all the flashy phenomenal gifts that they were desiring.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails εκπιπτει. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail καταργηθησονται; whether there are tongues, they will cease παυσονται; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away καταργηθησονται.

Verse eight contains a triad __ prophecy, tongues, and knowledge __ which are contrasted with another triad in verse thirteen __ faith, hope, and love. The second triad consists of things that remain, whereas the first triad consists of things that cease, fail, or vanish away.
With what are faith, hope, and love contrasted? They are contrasted with prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. It should be apparent that if we make both of these triads continue throughout this present age until Christ returns then the apostle’s intended contrast is destroyed!
Paul says that love never fails [εκπιπτει ] the word means to fall down from or out of. So the meaning is that Love will never fall from its exalted position.
• But prophecies (the extraordinary gift) shall be καταργεω “reduced to inactivity”.
• Tongues shall παυω “stop, cease, leave off”. Compare the use of the word in Heb. 10:2 and in 1Pet 4:1.
• Knowledge likewise shall be καταργεω “reduced to inactivity”. In this context just what knowledge is Paul talking about? Not spiritual and divine knowledge in general for surely there will be such knowledge hereafter in heaven as well as now on earth, and vastly more … knowledge of God, Christ, and spiritual things shall not vanish away but shall gloriously increase. By the phrase ‘knowledge shall pass away’ is meant a particular miraculous gift (see 1Cor 12:8) that was in operation in the Church of God in those days.
This knowledge was a Revelatory gift, i.e. it involved revealing directly to the possessor of the gift the mind and will of God. This is evidenced by its association with prophecy and tongues.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

Paul says that we know, literally “we are presently knowing” εκ μερους “out of that which is partial” or “out of a portion of the whole.” Knowledge and prophecy were then coming forth in the period of Partial Revelation as contrasted with Completed Revelation as is seen in the following verses.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

“But” says Paul by way of contrast “when comes that which is perfect …” . This phrase το τελειον that which is perfect is pivotal to the interpretation of the passage. The two Greek words are Neuter in gender and should be rendered the perfect thing. Whatever Paul had in mind when he wrote το τελειον it was, in its grammatical identity something neuter. If he had in mind Christ he would no doubt have written the masculine ο τελειος He who is perfect . If what he was referring to was Christ’s return he would have written the feminine η τελεια as in the feminine τη παρουσια “the coming of our Lord” (1Thess 5:23). Whatever Paul did have in mind he alludes to it with the neuter το τελειον that perfect thing.
So what is that perfect thing? The meaning of το τελειον is that which is brought to its end; finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect.
Again the question comes: what is that perfect, that completed thing that the apostle was pointing to? It must be something apposite and juxtaposed to that which is partial mentioned in the previous verse. It is Revelatory, and since the category of the partial is Revelation then the category of the complete must be Revelation.
That Perfect Thing is the completed, inscripturated Revelation; the finished Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Paul here, by way of illustration, administers a rebuke to the Corinthians. They have been behaving childishly in regard to the Extraordinary Gifts in general and Speaking in Tongues in particular. He illustrates this by saying that when he was a child he spoke, understood, and thought as a child, i.e. childlishly!
When however, “he became γεγονα [perfect tense] a man ” ανηρ that is, he completely entered manhood, he remained a man and did not return to childhood. He put away childish things. So too he is telling the Corinthians that the Church would one day reach Revelatory maturity and never return to childhood again.
It is a sign of spiritual childishness to want to go back to the time of the Church’s childishness. The time of the church’s childishness was the time of the extraordinary phenomenal gifts!
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Paul gives explanation here saying “For” or “Because” “we see now, at this present time, by means of a mirror [εσοπτρον _ a piece of highly polished metal ] dimly { αινιγματι literally, in an enigma, indistinctly}…
Paul’s point is that in their day the Corinthians, along with all other believers, had an uncompleted Bible; a partially polished metal shield in which they could dimly behold themselves. James had already taken up the imagery of a mirror in reference to the Word of God saying in chapter One and verse Twenty-three of his epistle “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror εσοπτρον.
Paul again takes up this same imagery, although he employs a synonym of εσοπτρον in his second epistle to this same Corinthian church saying:
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror [κατοπτριζω participle from κατοπτρον ] the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So here in (13:12) Paul is showing them that in this era of partially completed revelation they see things dimly; they know things out of a part of an as yet uncompleted whole. But he points this out in order to bring out the contrast. This partiality and dimness have continued up to their present time, but….
Contrast relative to Time
“but then …” τοτε When? When that perfect thing i.e. the completed Scriptures have come. The Corinthians were seeing in their Hebrew bibles dimly, but then τοτε face to face προσωπον προς προσωπον
Contrast relative to Quality
“face to face” How? Clearly as contrasted with dimly.
This phrase “face to face” has been popularly interpreted to mean the beholding God by the saints in glory. But the phrase as used in Scripture never refers to that glorious event. Rather the biblical usage consistently refers to the clear propositional revelation of the Word of God as contrasted with the less clear revelation of visions and dreams.
Numbers 12:6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. 7 Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. 8 I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?"
See also __ Exodus 33:9-11, 18-23; Deuteronomy 5:1-4
Thus Paul tells the Corinthians that then, when that perfect, completed thing has come their knowing shall no longer be dim but shall possess the precision that comes from the clear propositional revelation of God’s Word inscripturated and preserved to the Church to the end of the age.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even though the phenomenal gifts of prophecy (direct revelation from God), tongues (languages known without being learned), and knowledge (intelligence never acquired by study) would not continue to abide in the Church throughout this age, and at the end of the age faith becomes sight (2Cor 5:6-7) and hope becomes fulfillment (Rom 8:22-25), nevertheless Love continues throughout eternity.
 
Modern Spiritual Gifts as Analogous to Apostolic Gifts

You might particularly like reading this. The author is an OT history prof at Westminster ( PA) and a cessationist. However, he details at the end many remarkable "providences" during the days of the Covenanters and the writers of the confession. He calls them providences and the charismatics call them gifts.

Also, Wayne Grudem's Systematic theology on this subject might be very helpful to you. He is reformed but not a cessationist, as is John Piper to some extent. ( I got saved into charismania). The charismatic movement today looks at "prophecy" in a way that separates it from the canon of scripture, and allows for endless predictions of the future that are held in authority like scripture (as can be the leading "prophets" who utter them.) And they teach that we now have God's authority and therefore can declare and speak things into being, and prayer meetings become declaration sessions. It is so incredibly off that you do need to pull back entirely to sort out your thinking, but maybe Grudem and Poythress can help you a bit.

The Holy Spirit does still impress us and bring pertinent scriptures into situations and the semantics can be confusing, and people can say they are cessationists and then walk in things that I would call charismatic, and if I say I am charismatic and define what I mean, the average charismatic will tell me I am off the wall with my Reformed doctrine. This is a tough area to sort out!!

Because this is a cessationist forum I will avoid tongues, but there are many Reformed ( ie, calvinist, non dispensational, covenantal) people who do think you can still pray in tongues. That debate is not allowed here but they do exist.

I will say this on that though...read Acts 2 & 4 at the end, and what happened when the holy spirit was poured out. Look at it! They gave to the needy. They shared everything they had. Now contrast that with the single minded emphasis on tongues and the prosperity greed, and ask yourself if the holy spirit falls on the church and we all get rich and buy stuff for us and speak in tongues? No. They are definitely experiencing spiritual things I believe, but I believe it is often a counterfeit evil spirit. I have seen things that are beyond human ability, and impressive, but the fruit as time goes by is very evil. My charismatic experience was confusing because it was such a mix of true and counterfeit, and that was many years ago, it is worse now. I have shown Pentecostals this part from Acts 2 & 4 about giving and sharing and they get angry. It is funny. They more they harp on their one little evidence of the holy spirit, the more they are into money, you can bank on it.

Prayers for you brother.
 
The debate is not allowed???? Why? That seems strange to me but I guess they have a good reason. I have Grudem and will read what he says. Do not have Vern Poythress, is that worth getting?

Thanks for your comments. Like I said I really need to see it and understand it in Scripture before I can say I am convinced. I am going to study RBCBOB's Post as well which I glanced over. I will spend time reading his reply, it seems to make sense.

I am seeing that much of what is called spiritual is really nothing more than emotionalism. Though I am ont against emotions since I am human. Jesus showed emotion, the plsams are filled with emotion. But I want my emotions to be govenrned by Scritipture. So I have no problem with some of the Charismatic practices of lifting hands, singing out loud, clapping and even crying at times. But just not into the whooopin and hollerin and runnin and fallin out and rolling and barking and the rest of the Zoology I have experienced and seen.

Thanks for your reply.

Steve
 
Originally posted by The Author of my Faith
The debate is not allowed???? Why? That seems strange to me but I guess they have a good reason.

Steve,

To remove any confusion from what Lynnie referred to: since this is a confessional board, members are not allowed to advocate contra-confessional positions. Those who own and operate the board are convinced Reformed and Presbyterian men, and want this board to be a "safe haven," so to speak, which will not be a part of causing confusion or leading people astray from the truth we confess. Therefore, while discussion is more than welcome concerning why we believe what we believe concerning spiritual gifts and questions may be brought forth here in order to understand the Reformed position, advocacy of contra-confessional positions (e.g., the continuation of sign gifts), which would be necessary for there to be a "debate" over the issue, is not welcome.
 
Steve, this is a confessional board and as they put it, they don't want to reinvent the wheel. It isn't a place to come in and argue with TULIP, or try and force dispensationalism, or women elders, etc. And I think I am correct in saying that because all new revelation has ceased with the end of the canon, the confession is considered to be cessationist.
(Believe me, even if you don't agree with every single interpretation of the confession here, it is a good policy.)

Now Vern Poythress clearly, as a cessationist, lays out "extraordinary providences" among even guys like Rutherford who helped write the WCF, and some of this is semantics, because Grudem would label them as prophecy. But not canonical. So yes, I would print out his essay if for no other reason than the history at the end which is kinda cool :)

You might also want to read up on Jonathan Edwards and the awakening and the place of emotions (his famous work is called Religious Affections). If it is too long for you, maybe John Piper has a synopsis, he is kind of the diet lite version of Edwards.

Charismatic practices of lifting hands, singing out loud, clapping and even crying at times. But just not into the whooopin and hollerin and runnin and fallin out and rolling and barking and the rest of the Zoology I have experienced and seen.

Uh huh. I'll say this from sad observation......when God truly moves in revival, with the lost getting saved and His people having deep conviction of sin and repentance and greater love for God and the church, and then it dries up in a few years due to bad doctrine and laziness and idolotry and so forth......people feel the dryness and emptiness and are an open door for deception and counterfeits. That whole Toronto thing was from the pit of hell. Wayne Grudem many many years ago was in a Vineyard church and they had a wonderful period of true revival and many conversions. It is almost unbelievable how demonic that whole thing became when the Toronto movement started a long time later in a couple vineyard churches. It swept through like the black plague wiping out 50% of Europe. John Wimber made the comment that pastors were labeling behaviours as the Holy Spirit, that at one time they would have tried to exorcise a demon for. Rolling on the floor growling during worship?????

Iain Murray is another good one to read.....try Pentecost Today. He is a cessationist and my favorite author, and a wonderful writer about the true work of the Holy Spirit.
 
Grudems systematic theology is weak and inconsistent in talking about the gifts. He re-defines terms giving new meanings to them,ie direct revelation is not really direct revelation, it comes into a persons mind but then the person re-interprets it in his own way.
I have seen his writing used by unstable believers to justify their emotional excess, holding out for a "secret prayer language" [you know....those silly rhyming noises that are not really a language].
Like Roman Catholics clinging to a set of rosary beads, or a scapula , they hold out for some assurance of salvation by these experiences....rather than obeying lawful commands and bearing fruit of the Spirit.
Sign gifts had a place 2Cor 12:12....as did the Apostles Acts 4:33 5:12 14:3 Eph.2:20 Hebrews 2:1-4
We have all they did to confirm the word ,once delivered to the saints Jude3
 
the author of my faith (Steve),

I would highly recommend Sam Waldron's "To Be Continued". It provides an excellent argument against Continuasionism.
 
So 'continuationists' are not confessional?

What is the evidence that one cannot be confessional and believe in spiritual gifts?
 
One thing that may be helpful in understanding this:

Charismatic/Pentecostal theology teaches that new revelation comes through speaking in unknown tongues and interpretation in corporate worship. Their practice focuses on that.

Reformed theology says that Scripture teaches revelation is now complete in the Word of God. The Word says of its revelation that it has laid a foundation built upon the prophets and apostles, (Ephesians 2:20) and that the faith was "once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3.)

That is, that the Word of God, the foundation of our faith has been laid, it is not continually "re-laid" or added to by with charismatic revelation. Not in any ordinary sense, at least.

So, that is what does not "continue." That is what has "ceased."

Because charismatic/pentecostal practice violates this biblical precept, it is a reason there is such disorder in their communions.

So, the Word is sufficient, and the focus of corporate worship.

Don't misunderstand that with "God not being able to do miracles." Both theologies allow that.

For example:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter V
Of Providence

....

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.

....
 
Last edited:
It's interesting that people want to claim that the WCF is a cessationist document; yet they do not quote the document saying WHERE it is cessationist! :)

WCF 1:1, Those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people having now ceased. Compare the Directory on Church Government for affirmation of extraordinary offices (official functions) being discontinued. Cessationism means that the gifts of the Spirit which were present as a part of the apostolic age are no longer conferred or exercised. It does not mean that God does not heal or direct His people through ordinary means today.
 
Here's my thing, and I might not be the most articulate in getting it off my chest but bear with me. I'm just going to speak practically here.

Most every church I can find out there that practices tongues or prophecy also grossly deviates from the Word of God in sound teaching and doctrine [separate from their charisma]. Now from what we know in scripture, when God chooses to reveal something prophetically, he does so--and it has nothing to do with the abilities of the prophet. No one just decides that they are just going to start speaking infallibly and has this honored by God on that basis. It is solely of God's choosing.

So here is my big question. While we do live in an age of rampant theological darkness, there are actually plenty of faithful churches out there that honor God's Word and teach sound doctrine. If God was to choose to share a prophecy today [for what reason I cannot guess], why would he not do so among his faithful flocks? Why instead do we only "see" this sort of thing on the fringes of the orthodox faith, if not altogether banished from reasonable Christianity? Why haven't Al Mohler, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, Sinclair Ferguson, etc just spontaneously started speaking in tongues during service? This hasn't even happened to John Piper, and many say that he is open to this sort of thing.

Is it because they are "quenching the Spirit"? I think not, because again it is up to God who prophesies--not man.

So what it seems we are left with then amongst those who do "prophesy" today is a boatload of confused sheep, overzealous evangelists, charlatans, religious entrepreneurs, and downright liars. But amongst them it's really a tough cookie to find a humble and faithful servant of God.
 
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Thirty-Two Articles of Christian Faith and Practice with Scripture Proofs
Adopted by the Ministers and Messengers of the General Assembly Which Met in London in 1689



CHAP. I.
Of the Holy Scriptures.
1. The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible (a) rule of all saving Knowledge, Faith and Obedience; Although the (b) light of Nature, and the works of Creation and Providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will, which is necessary unto Salvation. (c) Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that His will unto his Church; and afterward for the better preserving, and propagating of the Truth, and for the more sure Establishment, and Comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the World, to commit the same wholly unto (d) writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of Gods revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.

a 2 Tim. 3 15,16,17. Isa. 8. 20. Luk. 16. 29,31. Eph. 2. 20.

b Rom. 1. 19,20,21. &c. ch 2. 14,15. Psal. 19. 1,2,3.

c Heb. 1. 1.

d Pro. 22. 19,20,21. Rom. 15. 4. 2 Pet. 1. 19,20.
 
I understand that gifts for the revelation of GOD'S WORD has ceased; but do all spiritual gifts fall under the category of 'revelatory' gifts? That is what I am talking about.

BTW, I do not consider myself a continuationist... as anyone who visited the LA congregation would quickly see:

Read the Scriptures.
Sing the Scriptures (Psalms).
Pray according to the Scriptures.
Preach from the Scriptures.

No extra revelation needed. :)
 
Thank you all for your comments. I understand the tongues issue not being debated on here since it would be something that probably would not be edifying to many. I am going to research this more and read all that you have suggested. I appreciate your concerns and covet your prayers.
 
Why haven't Al Mohler, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, Sinclair Ferguson, etc just spontaneously started speaking in tongues during service? This hasn't even happened to John Piper, and many say that he is open to this sort of thing.

Michael, this is an experiential response and I can't say it is biblical.

Healthy people do not need a gift of healing or a miracle. When you feel great you don't need an extraordinary providence for your body. Healing is for the sick.

I used to pray in tongues a lot after I got saved at age 18. I had been suicidal. I had a screaming anti Christ Father and a lot of emotional problems and some panic attacks, along with guilt because I wasn't perfect, and I was around a lot of bad doctrine. I loved the Lord, I loved his word, I loved his people....but life itself was a daily battle. Some reformed might say my tongues were just psychological inner help, and the charismatics would say I spoke in the language of angels, edifying myself in an unknown tongue, and some reformed might say it was demonic , but it brought relief at the time. ( so did smoking pot, but I gave that up at conversion, so I won't say relief justified anything as from God).

The point is, I was sick inside. Deeply sick in mind and heart.

I look back and the correspondence between getting into Reformed doctrine and gradually not praying in tongues much, if ever, is striking. It started with amillenialism when I met the guy I eventually married. It might seem like an odd start for an Arminian, but I was just amazed and charmed and convinced by Covenant theology and amillenialism. (Took a while for the rest.) Another breakthrough was God's sovereignty over satan. We used to fight the devil and do spiritual battle like the devil is a free agent on par with God. Enlightenment about sovereignty over satan was like a rock in the middle of the ocean. Lifechanging. Finally got long and intense biblical counseling about my childhood, and faced up to my sin and depravity instead of all my hurts and wounds. Also major for me. Along the way TULIP fell into place, the sabbath, and just loving theology in general.

I stopped praying in tongues. I actually felt guilty for a long time about it; Paul said he wished everybody did and it edifies us, but I just didn't seem to need it, and I even thought I should pray more in tongues. But by then my intercession had moved into much prayer for others instead of a self absorbed, emotional, inner pain, tongues relieving prayer time. And one day it hit me- I was healthy! I wasn't sick anymore and I didn't need need something that I had needed for a long time when I was a mess.

Maybe God knows those big name speakers don't need it. Or maybe when they go around and speak, God wants the focus on theology because there is such a need for Calvinism out there. Maybe scripture is the most desperately needed thing. Pentecostals would flame me to death for saying that, because of the verses I mentioned before about Paul. But even Paul would rather speak 5 words to edify others than 10,000 in a tongue. He had a focus on others. In my tongues I had a focus on me. I still don't know exactly what I think about it all, I am not a cessationist about tongues. But I know that the rock of sound doctrine did something for me that tongues never did, and I know others who will say the same thing.

I'll just say that if you meet a Pentecostal, the place to start is not cessationism and tongues. I have found that even the most off the wall whack jobs tell me that John Piper's biography CDs are great if we burn them a few, and they want the rest. ( I had one lady who told me that if the spirit tells her one thing and the bible says another, she has to go with the spirit, and almost all the churches today have lost the anointing. She listened to a few and wanted them all and her pastor husband burned several sets and gave them to some of his crazy pastor friends.! It is a start). Just an idea. Somebody I know who won't even go to church anymore ( burned partly by the Toronto blessing crazies) told me last summer how much those CDs had meant to them. Anyway, I better go get to sleep!
 
Here's my thing, and I might not be the most articulate in getting it off my chest but bear with me. I'm just going to speak practically here.

Most every church I can find out there that practices tongues or prophecy also grossly deviates from the Word of God in sound teaching and doctrine [separate from their charisma]. Now from what we know in scripture, when God chooses to reveal something prophetically, he does so--and it has nothing to do with the abilities of the prophet. No one just decides that they are just going to start speaking infallibly and has this honored by God on that basis. It is solely of God's choosing.

So here is my big question. While we do live in an age of rampant theological darkness, there are actually plenty of faithful churches out there that honor God's Word and teach sound doctrine. If God was to choose to share a prophecy today [for what reason I cannot guess], why would he not do so among his faithful flocks? Why instead do we only "see" this sort of thing on the fringes of the orthodox faith, if not altogether banished from reasonable Christianity? Why haven't Al Mohler, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, Sinclair Ferguson, etc just spontaneously started speaking in tongues during service? This hasn't even happened to John Piper, and many say that he is open to this sort of thing.

Is it because they are "quenching the Spirit"? I think not, because again it is up to God who prophesies--not man.

So what it seems we are left with then amongst those who do "prophesy" today is a boatload of confused sheep, overzealous evangelists, charlatans, religious entrepreneurs, and downright liars. But amongst them it's really a tough cookie to find a humble and faithful servant of God.

This can be a difficult area to understand. Particularly so because many of us have seen or experienced some sort of "charismatic" phenomena at some point. Most all of us have seen some sort of miracle, something supernatural.

It's helpful in for me in trying to rightly, biblicaly, understand this to focus on the purpose. When we say "prophesy" in sense of someone predicting the future in a way that God's people are supposed to go by, or having a "Word from the Lord" spontaneously during corporate worship, ask what is the purpose in light of the completed special revelation of God (His Word).

Would God be adding new revelation when He has already given His Word, built upon the foundation laid by the prophets (Old Testament) and apostles (New Testament)?

Unfortunately, charismatic/pentecostal practice is centered on doing this as part of corporate worship.

So, it's not really a question of "balance" or "abusing" these gifts, though the accounts of that legion. Nor is it a question of "Can God do miracles?"

Seeking special revelation outside of Scripture in itself brings disorder. It's about purpose- what is the function of extra-biblical special revelation when God the Holy Spirit has and is speaking through Holy Scripture?

So in the end, God can operate extraordinarily in circumstances, He can and does miracles, He might even "continue" charismatic gifts, but NOT as a means of supplanting the full and complete special revelation of God He has already given through His Word.

Standard charismatic/pentecostal practice not only supplants it, but center their corporate worship on it.

So, if you study I Cor 14 you see their standard practice, it violates all the injunctions Paul gave the Church at Corinth at that time (not the greatest gifts, not the center of corporate worship [the resurrection of Christ is], not even a sign for believers [but for unbelievers]) PLUS they continue it as a source of new revelation from God. Scripture had not been completed at Corinth, it is now.

All this, and no wonder there is such disorder in their communions.

Reformed Theology believes the Holy Spirit "speaks" to us, through Scripture, and by illuminating our understanding as we study it. That's why John Calvin's work in that area is recognized and he is sometimes referred to as, "The theologian of the Holy Spirit."
 
This can be a difficult area to understand. Particularly so because many of us have seen or experienced some sort of "charismatic" phenomena at some point. Most all of us have seen some sort of miracle, something supernatural.
For what it's worth, I've experienced plenty of this sort of thing too. Sometimes to incredible proportions. Thing is, I was raised in a pagan cult. So I don't doubt that supernatural charismatic phenomena exists. However, I've yet to see any of it come from a faithful congregation of God. That's all I was trying to get across.
 
I suspect what you are describing, Michael, not seeing it from "a faithful congregation of God" makes sense because a biblical communion is not going to center itself on receiving new revelation of God outside of Scripture nor center itself on the seeking of "signs and wonders.":)
 
Here's my thing, and I might not be the most articulate in getting it off my chest but bear with me. I'm just going to speak practically here.

Most every church I can find out there that practices tongues or prophecy also grossly deviates from the Word of God in sound teaching and doctrine [separate from their charisma]. Now from what we know in scripture, when God chooses to reveal something prophetically, he does so--and it has nothing to do with the abilities of the prophet. No one just decides that they are just going to start speaking infallibly and has this honored by God on that basis. It is solely of God's choosing.

So here is my big question. While we do live in an age of rampant theological darkness, there are actually plenty of faithful churches out there that honor God's Word and teach sound doctrine. If God was to choose to share a prophecy today [for what reason I cannot guess], why would he not do so among his faithful flocks? Why instead do we only "see" this sort of thing on the fringes of the orthodox faith, if not altogether banished from reasonable Christianity? Why haven't Al Mohler, Joel Beeke, Ligon Duncan, Sinclair Ferguson, etc just spontaneously started speaking in tongues during service? This hasn't even happened to John Piper, and many say that he is open to this sort of thing.

Is it because they are "quenching the Spirit"? I think not, because again it is up to God who prophesies--not man.

So what it seems we are left with then amongst those who do "prophesy" today is a boatload of confused sheep, overzealous evangelists, charlatans, religious entrepreneurs, and downright liars. But amongst them it's really a tough cookie to find a humble and faithful servant of God.

Thank you! I have been to the Pensecola Revival and at that time was hungry for God and thought something was wrong with me becuase I did not fall out when they touched me and did not exepreince really anything "supernatural". So I walked away feeling defeated and faithless. I guess God was protecting me from falling prey to that kind of craziness.

But what about people who I know who have gone to these charlatans and some actually were healed? Can't God heal someone inspite of the charlatan that i preaching. Suppose that person has been praying and God answered thier prayer and healed them. My friend who was saved from Herion addiction was healed of a sever sickness miraculously. He was dying and almost instantaneously he turned around. Are we to chalk that up to chance? Or can't God heal someone today. Not by the gift of healing, not by some hand of a charlatan but by God's sovereing will?

Listen, I am taking everything that is said hear to heart and praying and diving in to the scriptures to see if these things be true. I am being a Berean. But I don't want to limit God either.

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

Also I want to purchase the Westminster Confession of Faith but there seems to be many versions? Any recommendations?

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------


That is hysterical! LOL! enjoy your popcorn as you sit back an observe!
 
Steve, I really feel for you and can't encourage you enough. You're doing the right thing and you should have every confidence that God will bless you if you ask, seek, and knock according to his Word.

About the healings. I'll just say as I alluded above that I've seen these sort of things first hand myself. But I've seen them in pagan environments so think that one through. Not saying that it isn't real. Just be very cautious.

Don't get me wrong. I believe God heals. I pray to that end all the time. But I have little faith or patience for folks who claim to possess God's power. God granted the ability of healing to specific people for a time and circumstance that was relative to establishing his truth, furthering his gospel, and building his church. Show me someone today who has this power and also preaches the Word faithfully and then we'll talk.

One other thing because I hear it a lot. It's very common for people defending spiritual gifts today to talk about not putting God in a box or limiting his power. Here's the deal, the fact that God does not prophesy today is not anything that limits him--it actually places MORE glory upon what has already been accomplished. All of the miracles and signs that pointed to Christ and the cross need not be repeated because their purpose has been fulfilled. So again, we're not talking about limiting God here, rather acknowledging what he has actually done! We have his perfect word. As Piper says so often: "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied with him." Be satisfied with God. There is so much more to be amazed at than most anyone in the charismatic movement realizes.

Re: Westminster Confession of Faith. You can print it out here (74 pages but includes all the scripture proofs which are very important). If you really want to buy a copy, I suggest getting G.I. Williamson's study guide of the confession.
 
Also I want to purchase the Westminster Confession of Faith but there seems to be many versions? Any recommendations?

That's the PCA blue notebook that has loose leaf pages- Westminster Standards (Confessions, Larger and Shorter Catechism) with Scripture proofs at the bottom of each page plus it has an excellent concise Reformation historical summary.
[often, 2/3 or more of the page is Scripture]

CEP Bookstore - WESTMINSTER COF & CATECHISMS W/SCRIPTURE LOOSE L

The Blue notebook binder: (also designed to contain the PCA Book of Church Order, both the Westminster Standards and BCO are the constitution of the PCA):
CEP Bookstore - BOOK OF CHURCH ORDER BINDER
 
but do all spiritual gifts fall under the category of 'revelatory' gifts?

I think if we keep in mind what is said to have ceased, it will clarify matters. It is extraordinary spiritual gifts which have ceased. All gifts have been given so that the church might attain unity and maturity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. Hence they are all revelatory. It is just that some reveal in an extraordinary way and some reveal in an ordinary way. The extraordinary way was part of the foundation of the church and passed away with those who were immediately sent by Christ to minister in His name. The church today is closed up to the ordinary means of grace dispensed by those who are mediately sent to minister in the name of Christ by the church. And, if anyone takes a moment to think about the subject in these specific terms, it will be seen that a claim to the exercise of extraordinary spiritual gifts is really nothing more than men refusing to submit themselves to the ordinary process of accreditation.
 
I was raised in the Assemblies of God. I am still working through some of the issues concerning the Charismatic movement. I read Grudem and Piper and they're actually the guys that God used to open my heart and mind to the doctrines of grace. I am beginning to understand the cessationist argument more, especially through listening to John MacArthur. The sufficiency of scripture is the main issue that concerns me when it comes to all of this. I am still not convinced of cessationism, since God never changes. However, I also understand that there are things that God has done in the past that aren't normative, or really have ceased, such as the inspiration of scripture. So, I think I am moving further away from the Charismatic movement. Anyway, I guess I'll leave it at that for now. God bless. Soli Deo Gloria.
 
Jared, rest assured that cessationists don't teach that God has changed in any way. God still can and does work miracles. The method by which the Word and Spirit are ministered, however, has changed frequently throughout history. For instance, until Moses there was no scripture; after Moses, the word of God was committed to scripture. Before Pentecost, the Spirit was given more sparingly; after Pentecost He came more fully. So it is not a strange thing to say that the manner and means of the Spirit working change according to God's dispensation. The cessationist notes strongly the profound connection between the "extraordinary" workings of the Spirit in the earthly ministry of Jesus (which encompasses his time on earth as well as those appointed to be his representatives to establish his church). This foundation being laid, the church is subsequently nourished through a more steady and "ordinary" manner. This is not a change in God, but rather a change or development in the manner in which he deals with His church according to her condition (infant/grown); even as we do not say a parent has "changed" with regard to their child when they deal with them differently according to their age.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top