1 Corinthians 6:7-11 does Paul address the visible church v9 and the invisible v11?

[Eoghan]

As I plow through Corinthians I am looking for the narrative flow, the logic that led Paul from one sentence to the other. As Paul tells them that they should be following Christ's teaching and turning the other cheek when it comes to court cases, he suddenly switches in verse 8 to accuse them of contradicting all such teaching and actually extorting and inflicting wrong - on people they call brothers! Then Paul starts on something they should know already, that the unrighteous will not enter heaven. Why remind them, because they were in danger of deluding themselves. The danger was that they thought that no change was necessary. You could be a swindler and still get to heaven.

If you are with me so far then bear with me and how verse 11 could be read. If Paul was talking to people so deluded, who may have made a profession of faith since the church was founded. Then he is essentially talking to the visible church - those who self-identify as Christians. Here Paul notes that some of them used to live in this was - following after the flesh but they were born -again, cleansed, sanctified and made righteous "in Christ".

My point (and Pauls?) is that those who were converted repented of their former way of life, others were still living it! Those who had repented were "righteous" in God's eyes, those who were still in their sins were not "righteous" or "in Christ".

I had always assumed that Paul was saying that some of the Corinthians were sinners after this fashion but I now wonder if he is saying that those born-again were formerly living as sinners, in contrast to those still in their sins. Is there anything in the Greek that rules in this interpretation or rules it out.

 

[sevenzedek]

I wonder why Paul did not say, "And such were all of you," when he said, "
And such were some of you," in 6:11. I'm just pushing for understanding.

 

[Eoghan]

Did Paul consciously address all those who were genuinely converted in verse 11? Yes or no? (This is a self selecting address, in which Paul could have added "if the shoe fits")

Is there not a passage where Paul says "but I am convinced of better things concerning you" where he does speak gently and encouragingly of their conversion?

[BIBLE]Hebrews 6:9[/BIBLE]

 

[sevenzedek]

I'm reminded of Colossians 1:23, If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...

 

[earl40]

I wonder why Paul did not say, "And such were all of you," when he said, "
And such were some of you," in 6:11. I'm just pushing for understanding.

Here Paul is stating that some of them had lives who were defined by grievous sin. I have found that many Christians do not want to classify sin. Yes we all are sinners, but I believe Paul is stating that many think, or can be deceived, into thinking that just because we all sin there are not obvious signs of a unrepentant heart. Thus he lists these grievous sins.

 

[Eoghan]

I think we are all pretty much on the same page. Whilst Jonathan Edwards could look back and say that of those he admitted to fellowship of his church none fell away I very much doubt that he would go so far as to say all his congregation were regenerate. We seem to assume that we are Christians on the basis of our verbal confession, I can think of very little preaching I have encountered about the signs of spiritual life which are tokens of our regeneration. One thing I did notice in 1 Samuel is that when David (the regenerate man) encountered setbacks or disaster like Ziklag's sacking (or sin in his life) he went through an emotional down and then turned to God. Saul (the unregenerate man) when confronted with setbacks and sin just wanted to paper over the cracks and keep going. You can knock a Christian down but they get back up, a Christian may fall to temptation but they will get back up. I think you are right too Earl, we should not lose all hope should we encounter sin. We should be prepared and taught to continue our sanctification until our last breath. I was moved when Joni spoke of allowing people to pray for her healing: from a bitter spirit, from temper and other manifestations of sin.

I think Joshua is right when he says Paul did not have regeneration goggles. The Protestant religion firmly places assurance in our sphere and not a pronouncement of the priest or pastor. I need to be careful in assuming that Paul ever spoke to rebuke a church without realising it was a visible church. John MacArthur made the point that when addressing some of the more dissolute churches in Revelation there were still some who had not sullied their garments. This is an important point to bear in mind in exegesis - churches will contain wheat and tares until the end. If we have wheat only we are blessed indeed but cannot assume it because neither do we have regeneration goggles.

 

[sevenzedek]

1Co. 6:11...

Paul could be speaking in a general manner. Check out some/τισ/tis: "Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify..." (Complete Word Study Bible). This is the sense in which Calvin understood it. Calvin: "Some add a term of speciality: Such were some of you, as in Greek the word τινεσ is added; but I am rather of opinion that the Apostle speaks in a general way. I consider that term to be redundant, in accordance with the practice of the Greeks, who frequently make use of it for the sake of ornament, not by way of restriction." Later, Calvin adds: "... [Paul] simply means to intimate, that no one is altogether free from these vices, until he has been renewed by the Spirit."

 

[earl40]

1Co. 6:11...

Paul could be speaking in a general manner. Check out some/τισ/tis: "Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify..." (Complete Word Study Bible). This is the sense in which Calvin understood it. Calvin: "Some add a term of speciality: Such were some of you, as in Greek the word τινεσ is added; but I am rather of opinion that the Apostle speaks in a general way. I consider that term to be redundant, in accordance with the practice of the Greeks, who frequently make use of it for the sake of ornament, not by way of restriction." Later, Calvin adds: "... [Paul] simply means to intimate, that no one is altogether free from these vices, until he has been renewed by the Spirit."

This would work if he were speaking of all. The word "some" indicates a subset of Christians who were especially evil before they were converted.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It's interesting how much the original post represents how many people view Christianity these days. We were actually talking about his in a Seminary class last evening. Although Wesleyan perfectionism isn't really part of the Reformed confession, it dominates the Evangelical understanding of what it looks like to be a "real Christian". In other words, so many Christians agree with the idea that they need to stop all the things that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians (or Galatians or Romans or ....) and they conclude that they will be able to do that in the future when some sort of spiritual work is done in them that finally and utterly destroys sin and temptation in their members. They'll be completely sold out to Jesus at that point and they'll have more affection for the things of Christ than their sin.

In other words, it's not that they disagree with the indicatives of what Christ has accomplished for us in our identity with his death and resurrection, it's just that they see that reality as something that they'll utterly and fully possess if they're a true believer or, in some cases, once they receive some sort of "second blessing" of the Spirit then they'll accomplish these ends.

The problem that you're having with the passage is that you're approaching the text from two erroneous standpoints:
1. That it's the Church's primary mission to figure out who are the "truly converted".
2. It's corollary - once you are truly converted then the bad things that Paul talks about are a thing of the past.

Christianity is not a promise that we can achieve victory over our battle with the flesh once and for all in this life. Those who teach otherwise may be teaching a form of the Christian religion but it's not what the Scriptures teach. The battle against indwelling sin is CONSTANT and it is the reason why Paul (and the others) have to write over and over to remind Christians who they really are. If it remained so obvious to us then Paul could have written it once but it ought to strike the reader as remarkable that Paul has to remind people over an over who they really are. It's not as if I have to be told that I'm an American citizen and live with a constant desire to betray my nation or to cast off my citizenship desirous of the citizenship of some 3rd world country. Yet, it's the story of believers through the ages that we're constantly tempted to view the things of this world as precious and view the things of the age to come as relatively worthless.

It's my experience that the person who does not understand this reality is either spiritually dead to the battle or is so impoverished by excremental theology that they are not even in the battle.

Think about how often the Scriptures have to tell us that the times are evil and we need daily encouragement. Again, I don't need daily encouragement to think of myself as a wealthy white man. If I could just "fall into" Christianity then all these reminders would be terribly redundant but the whole tenor of 1 Corinthians is to a Church that is getting off the tracks. It's leaders are libertines who are boasting about gross sin and permitting all sorts of craziness in worship. Paul has to remind everyone that the entire call to ministry is the call to be the scum of the earrth because even those whom you preached to and brought the good news to will become your adverseries. One minute they think you're the best thing that ever happened to them and the next minute you're a babbling fool. One minute they're happy you redeemed them from slavery to sin and death and the next minute they upbraid you for the audacity of interfering with their lives.

There are a few keys that unlock understanding of the Scriptures and this may not be the most important one but the man who fundamentally misses the character of the redeemed man as being in a pitched battle has missed a key to understanding the Scriptures and they will be forever impoverished in their Christian walk until someone helps them understand it.

 

[Peairtach]

It's interesting how much the original post represents how many people view Christianity these days. We were actually talking about his in a Seminary class last evening. Although Wesleyan perfectionism isn't really part of the Reformed confession, it dominates the Evangelical understanding of what it looks like to be a "real Christian". In other words, so many Christians agree with the idea that they need to stop all the things that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians (or Galatians or Romans or ....) and they conclude that they will be able to do that in the future when some sort of spiritual work is done in them that finally and utterly destroys sin and temptation in their members. They'll be completely sold out to Jesus at that point and they'll have more affection for the things of Christ than their sin.

In other words, it's not that they disagree with the indicatives of what Christ has accomplished for us in our identity with his death and resurrection, it's just that they see that reality as something that they'll utterly and fully possess if they're a true believer or, in some cases, once they receive some sort of "second blessing" of the Spirit then they'll accomplish these ends.

The problem that you're having with the passage is that you're approaching the text from two erroneous standpoints:
1. That it's the Church's primary mission to figure out who are the "truly converted".
2. It's corollary - once you are truly converted then the bad things that Paul talks about are a thing of the past.

Christianity is not a promise that we can achieve victory over our battle with the flesh once and for all in this life. Those who teach otherwise may be teaching a form of the Christian religion but it's not what the Scriptures teach. The battle against indwelling sin is CONSTANT and it is the reason why Paul (and the others) have to write over and over to remind Christians who they really are. If it remained so obvious to us then Paul could have written it once but it ought to strike the reader as remarkable that Paul has to remind people over an over who they really are. It's not as if I have to be told that I'm an American citizen and live with a constant desire to betray my nation or to cast off my citizenship desirous of the citizenship of some 3rd world country. Yet, it's the story of believers through the ages that we're constantly tempted to view the things of this world as precious and view the things of the age to come as relatively worthless.

It's my experience that the person who does not understand this reality is either spiritually dead to the battle or is so impoverished by excremental theology that they are not even in the battle.

Think about how often the Scriptures have to tell us that the times are evil and we need daily encouragement. Again, I don't need daily encouragement to think of myself as a wealthy white man. If I could just "fall into" Christianity then all these reminders would be terribly redundant but the whole tenor of 1 Corinthians is to a Church that is getting off the tracks. It's leaders are libertines who are boasting about gross sin and permitting all sorts of craziness in worship. Paul has to remind everyone that the entire call to ministry is the call to be the scum of the earrth because even those whom you preached to and brought the good news to will become your adverseries. One minute they think you're the best thing that ever happened to them and the next minute you're a babbling fool. One minute they're happy you redeemed them from slavery to sin and death and the next minute they upbraid you for the audacity of interfering with their lives.

There are a few keys that lock understanding of the Scriptures and this may not be the most important one but the man who fundamentally misses the character of the redeemed man as being in a pitched battle has missed a key to understanding the Scriptures and they will be forever impoverished in their Christian walk until someone helps them understand it.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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