5000 Member PC(USA) Church Menlo Park Presbyterian votes to leave for the ECO

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Highland Park Dallas (about the same size) recently did the same, but they have a nasty property fight on their hands. First Presbyterian Houston voted to stay in the PCUSA, so it will probably bleed out slowly. There's a small PCUSA in Dallas that's at least had some mention of the EPC; the Presbytery sent around a couple of guys to ask about the endowments and how they were set up.
 
Several observations about this:

1) The church plans to enter the Evangelical Covenant Order (ECO), a communion developed especially for PCUSA departing congregations. The ECO cannot charitably even be termed Reformed. It takes a female government polity, contrary to Scripture, a mixed up Book of "Confessions," and no clear accountability to Reformed doctrine.

2) The church is paying 8-11 million dollars of the Lord's money to a mostly apostate PCUSA. How can this enrichment be a good thing?

3) While there certainly are Christian brothers and sisters left in some of the PCUSA congregations, the remaining congregations long ago lost contending for the Reformed Faith. They have almost completely lost the Evangelical (Protestant) Faith and are left contending for the very rudiments of orthodox Christianity.

4) In the end, this positions this church in, at best, a broadly evangelical position, at the liberal, humanist, idolatrous end of the spectrum.

Better than nothing.

But hard to rejoice.
 
Scott, I have a number of friends in the ECO and while it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination it's not terrible either. The folks who are leaving the PCUSA aren't liberals, but evangelicals who preach the same Gospel we do. Yes, we disagree on confessionalism and women's ordination, but I have the same problem with a number of other conservative denominations.

As for the money, it's just money. At least it's not the Episcopal Church, where monetary compensation isn't enough and the denomination is looking to punish people for being orthodox. The only upside to that situation is that the Episcopal Church may just bankrupt itself and disappear.
 
while it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination it's not terrible either. The folks who are leaving the PCUSA aren't liberals....
Objectively, it is pretty bad. In general, the breaking point for churches going to the ECO has been the issue of ordination of actively practicing homosexuals. They've been able to tolerate all of the other steps to apostasy, including abortion, ordination of women to all offices, and the abandonment of confessional standards. ECO really is a denomination built on a single issue.
 
Scott, I have a number of friends in the ECO and while it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination it's not terrible either. The folks who are leaving the PCUSA aren't liberals, but evangelicals who preach the same Gospel we do. Yes, we disagree on confessionalism and women's ordination, but I have the same problem with a number of other conservative denominations.

As for the money, it's just money. At least it's not the Episcopal Church, where monetary compensation isn't enough and the denomination is looking to punish people for being orthodox. The only upside to that situation is that the Episcopal Church may just bankrupt itself and disappear.
It's understandable, the sentiments with regard to believers who have stuck in out in the midst of an almost unbelievable apostasy. A denomination that sends tithe money to terrorist organizations, sells churches for mosques, funds abortion, etc. allows pagan rituals to be performed in its churches by its women 'ministers.'

But, look how terrible even your statement acknowledges it is,
it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination
but they will think they are. So will others. And the tendency of fallen men, and the undiscerning will be to accommodate that, and further dumb down biblical truth and the Reformed Faith.

And even amongst broadly evangelical communions, they start off on the liberal side there, and not even a high regard for the Word of God generally. Else, they could not have a female polity. It's so offensive to God.

We can't say, "it's just money." Money tithed to God is being used to engine apostasy. It's akin to extortion by a false, greedy, idolatrous religion. It isn't even Christian to have done this under the threat of litigation (a violation of I Cor. 6), which is why this happened.

Yes, there is much apostasy in our generation, apparently (Revelations 1-3), this has always been the case, and will be until our Lord returns.

The first order for the "Order" will be the painstaking task of divesting itself from the confusing, contradictory, unbiblical "Book of Confessions." Will it have the wherewithal to get through that back to at least a pretense of the Westminster Standards? Many will find statements here and there of latter-day humanistic throughout it attractive.

Will that kind of Scriptural resolve appear after a hiatus of two generations, i.e. two generations don't even know what that is.







 
while it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination it's not terrible either. The folks who are leaving the PCUSA aren't liberals....
Objectively, it is pretty bad. In general, the breaking point for churches going to the ECO has been the issue of ordination of actively practicing homosexuals. They've been able to tolerate all of the other steps to apostasy, including abortion, ordination of women to all offices, and the abandonment of confessional standards. ECO really is a denomination built on a single issue.


That's not quite fair, either.
The "Order" is based on a lot more than a single issue.

It's the difference between the material cause and the formal cause, e.g. The material cause of the Protestant Reformation was Mr. Luther posting the 95 theses on the door at Wittenburg. The formal cause was sola scriptura.

Here, the material cause may have been the ordination of the unrepentant sexually immoral, but the formal cause IS better than that. They do profess to want a biblical gospel and a general respect of the Word of God.

http://www.mppc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/A Rationale for Change - FINAL October 15_2013.pdf
The problem is they have lost the systematic theology and practice that flows from it.

They lost that long, long ago.

And, as sin is blinding, there is reason to believe the vast majority have not a clue that has happened....

And this is merely the beginning of birthpangs to get back home,
it's never impossible, God may deal gently,
but all the issues of false religion and false communion, and false assumptions about it are at the door.

We do need to pray for them and similarly situated communions.
 
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And even amongst broadly evangelical communions, they start off on the liberal side there, and not even a high regard for the Word of God generally. Else, they could not have a female polity. It's so offensive to God.

I agree that having women in ordained teaching ministry runs contrary to Paul's teaching, but I have profs here at seminary who have dug much deeper into the Biblical text than I who disagree, and still hold the Scriptures to be inerrant. If one looks back to the founding of the PCA, there was also a lot to be desired: racism prevelant in the southern churches, lax confessional subscription, and many other issues.

The first order for the "Order" will be the painstaking task of divesting itself from the confusing, contradictory, unbiblical "Book of Confessions." Will it have the wherewithal to get through that back to at least a pretense of the Westminster Standards? Many will find statements here and there of latter-day humanistic throughout it attractive.

That is, indeed, the issue.

It isn't even Christian to have done this under the threat of litigation (a violation of I Cor. 6), which is why this happened.

Oh I agree. And it's why I try not even to darken the doors of an Episcopal Church.

I'll also say that though there comes a time to "let goods and kindred go/Church properties also" it's hard for a congregation (particularly a large one) to know when that point is. The congregations that are leaving are often large ones which need to take the property with them, and it's often easier to settle out of court.

The reformation of churches takes time, it takes prayer, and it takes the Holy Spirit working. From where I am standing, it looks like the ECO is a work of the Spirit, and if it is, then He will preserve and guide it. Scott, I think your last comment was very helpful in that we need to be aiding and helping our brothers and sisters in the ECO who have come out of the PCUSA.
 
but I have profs here at seminary who have dug much deeper into the Biblical text than I who disagree, and still hold the Scriptures to be inerrant.

Not to digress,
but Gordon Conwell is not a Reformed Seminary, not a fundamentalist one, but nowadays, barely evangelical with some liberalism, so with cover of inerrancy, some believe and teach all sorts of unbiblical things, including women Pastors. Since such did not exist in orthodox Christianity historically,...
well, enough said. Protestations of certain Gordon Conwell "professors" of theology to the contrary.

The founding of the PCA was quite different in that it was self consciously an attempt to continue a historic biblical, reformed, Presbyterian church.

Like it or not, in the deluge of apostasy, the PCUSA denominations are fleeing for their spiritual lives, under duress, and paying a heavy (material) price for it, just to have a safe place to land.

Know what, looking at Menlo Park's rationale, it's almost like sola scriptura was the formal cause, i.e. the authority of Scripture part of historic Protestantism, before one gets to the Reformed distinctives.
 
while it's certainly not a confessional reformed denomination it's not terrible either. The folks who are leaving the PCUSA aren't liberals....
Objectively, it is pretty bad. In general, the breaking point for churches going to the ECO has been the issue of ordination of actively practicing homosexuals. They've been able to tolerate all of the other steps to apostasy, including abortion, ordination of women to all offices, and the abandonment of confessional standards. ECO really is a denomination built on a single issue.

:ditto:

I am a refugee from the PC(USA) who was "converted" to confessionally Reformed theology while attending a PC(USA) seminary. None of the "evangelical" students, now ministers, who are in the PC(USA) I knew could affirm limited atonement, let alone double predestination. Nearly all of them held to higher critical views including denying the Pauline authorship of many of his letters.

To buttress Edward's point I once watched a man passed for ordination who held openly to a modalistic view of the Trinity at presbytery and defined the gospel in universalistic terms, but then the "evangelicals" in the presbytery balked at the next person up for ordination because of his positive views on homosexual ordination. It was that event that certified my need to leave.
 
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The founding of the PCA was quite different in that it was self consciously an attempt to continue a historic biblical, reformed, Presbyterian church.

But it took time to figure out what that would look like. That's my point here.

Not to digress, but Gordon Conwell is not a Reformed Seminary, not a fundamentalist one, but nowadays, barely evangelical with some liberalism

That's more than a bit of an overstatement. They are not a confessional reformed seminary, no. They are, however, conservative and evangelical. You're confusing them with Fuller. But as you rightly say, we digress . . .

Like it or not, in the deluge of apostasy, the PCUSA denominations are fleeing for their spiritual lives, under duress, and paying a heavy (material) price for it, just to have a safe place to land.

It's truly sad. Thankfully, I am coming to realize that the future of the faith is not in the Western world. As western Protestantism slides into obscurity or into apostacy, the Gospel is going forth elsewhere.
 
The only point to add Philip,

the PCA was very clear, with a clear set of historic doctrinal standards, Book of church order, etc.
It was not merely looking for a safe place to land, but to be a continuing Presbyterian church.

Menlo Park is two generations after the train left the station, compromised the entire confessional basis of the denomination, etc. and isn't at all sure what it wants to be.

It's only clear for now, they do not want to be a historic, biblical reformed and Presbyterian denomination.
For now.
 
The only point to add Philip,

the PCA was very clear, with a clear set of historic doctrinal standards, Book of church order, etc.
It was not merely looking for a safe place to land, but to be a continuing Presbyterian church.

Menlo Park is two generations after the train left the station, compromised the entire confessional basis of the denomination, etc. and isn't at all sure what it wants to be.

It's only clear for now, they do not want to be a historic, biblical reformed and Presbyterian denomination.
For now.

Several observations about this:

1) The church plans to enter the Evangelical Covenant Order (ECO), a communion developed especially for PCUSA departing congregations. The ECO cannot charitably even be termed Reformed. It takes a female government polity, contrary to Scripture, a mixed up Book of "Confessions," and no clear accountability to Reformed doctrine.

2) The church is paying 8-11 million dollars of the Lord's money to a mostly apostate PCUSA. How can this enrichment be a good thing?

3) While there certainly are Christian brothers and sisters left in some of the PCUSA congregations, the remaining congregations long ago lost contending for the Reformed Faith. They have almost completely lost the Evangelical (Protestant) Faith and are left contending for the very rudiments of orthodox Christianity.

4) In the end, this positions this church in, at best, a broadly evangelical position, at the liberal, humanist, idolatrous end of the spectrum.

Better than nothing.

But hard to rejoice.

I think this is cause to rejoice because yes Menlo Park did not instantly become reformed, confessional, but It did break away to remain evangelical and for anyone who has traveled to the reformed side from liberal or pelagian upbringings will tell you it usually comes in steps not in one big leap. This may be the

1) They had no choice to pay the 9 million dollars because mainline denominations hold the property of the church and in order to leave the church they must pay for the property (even if the property was purchased by the tithes of the church). It was either pay or stay and the courts have backed up many denominations on this issue.

2) The ECO's statement of faith is not confessionally reformed but they are Evangelical and Calvinistic. They do hold to the 5 solas.

http://eco-pres.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ECO-Essential-Tenets-Confessions.pdf

3) The Church cannot join another Presbyterian Denomination (PCA for example) for 5 years so thats why they joined the ECO because for some reason the PC(USA) doesn't classify them as a Presbyterian Denomination but a network.

I think its a little early to imply that they haven't taken a big step.
 
Here, the material cause may have been the ordination of the unrepentant sexually immoral, but the formal cause IS better than that. They do profess to want a biblical gospel and a general respect of the Word of God.
http://www.mppc.org/sites/default/fi... 15_2013.pdf

I do want to clarify that I wasn't speaking of Menlo Park individually, but to all ECO congregations. The questions to be asked are 1) why now and not then, and 2) why ECO and not EPC. And in that context, it is pretty much a single issue driver.
 
Thankfully, I am coming to realize that the future of the faith is not in the Western world. As western Protestantism slides into obscurity or into apostacy, the Gospel is going forth elsewhere.

There are, of course, many, many faithful churches in the Western world.

Yet, we do observe generational apostasy, at a fearsome rate.

It's not new. (Read the Revelation of Jesus Christ to St. John the Divine, 1-3).

And it fits the general amillennial (realized millennium) view. Good and evil will go by side-by-side, appearing more or less prevailing at given points in time, yet there will always be a true church....
until He returns.

And yes, it is indeed gratifying to see real growth in biblical Christianity in other parts of the world.
 
Here, the material cause may have been the ordination of the unrepentant sexually immoral, but the formal cause IS better than that. They do profess to want a biblical gospel and a general respect of the Word of God.
http://www.mppc.org/sites/default/fi... 15_2013.pdf

I do want to clarify that I wasn't speaking of Menlo Park individually, but to all ECO congregations. The questions to be asked are 1) why now and not then, and 2) why ECO and not EPC. And in that context, it is pretty much a single issue driver.

I would say it is closely related to a battered woman syndrome psychology between the evangelical churches and a liberal denomination. The evangelical churches hold out hoping and hoping that the denomination will change while willfully compromising themselves and suffering spiritual abuse until finally the breaking point occurs.
 
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It's truly sad. Thankfully, I am coming to realize that the future of the faith is not in the Western world. As western Protestantism slides into obscurity or into apostacy, the Gospel is going forth elsewhere.

Given that "the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea," the Western world has both Gospel and faith in its future whether present inhabitants like it or not.
 
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