RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
What saith the Scriptures?
"Brethren, I would that ye all speak in tongues."
St. Paul
"Brethren, I would that ye all speak in tongues."
St. Paul
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Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Huh? I don't get your logic. 1 Cor 13:13 says "now" (the Greek "nuni"). So all that it has to mean is that right now we rely upon faith, hope and love. (Though in heaven I don't see any need to say we will not be hoping - see Rev 6:9-11 implies that they are still waiting (hoping?) for something(!)... Things aren't done until the new earth and the resurrection. Heaven is just a great pit stop.)
I can't say that I disagree with you... I just don't see what it is you're seeing. Please elaborate, brother.
no problem. But I think it is foundational to conclude that, whatever it's talking about, it's not talking about heaven. Now, I gave a verse which I'm using to say that we will not hope in heaven after we have everlasting life, redeemed bodies, difinitive sanctification etc. So, if "hope" is one of the things that remain, and if hope will not remain in heaven, then this isn't talking about heaven. Agreed.
p.s. as a side note, I interpet Rev 6 preteristically.
[Edited on 11-30-2004 by Paul manata]
About quoting Rev 6 preteristicaly. Ok. I interpret it idealistically.
I do think that hope remains in heaven. (gasp!)
According to Tit 2:13, what is the blessed HOPE of the church?
Has it happened yet?
Do saints in heaven cease to be a part of the church?
It seems, then, that the saints in heaven are still awaiting the blessed hope.
I don't emphasize heaven the way some do. I emphasize the resurrection because for every one thing the Bible has to say about Heaven it has 10 or 15 things to say about the resurrection. The New Earth is what we are looking forward to. Heaven is just where we wait out the rest of salvation history.
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Well... what can one say when confronted with the Masters?
I just think they're slightly off here. After all, though their logic seems compelling and resonable, it seems to go against the logic of Paul in 1 Thess 4:13-18. Here the hope is clearly connected with the resurrection.
Ben, answer Paul's question: Who hopes for what he has? What are you going to hope for in heaven?
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Paul, the coming of Christ is NOT heaven. You seem to have this assumption that going to heaven = perfect. Heaven is not "the perfect." The perfect is the New Earth. Until that happens there is something to be hopeful for. I fear you're basing a large case on minutia.
Originally posted by Paul manata
We can establish other things later. If I address the issue of hope and heaven we can, *at least* say that it isn't talking about *after* heaven.
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Paul, would you do me a favor?
Just homor me and present a case for cessationism w/o reference to 1 Cor 13. I'm sure you can do it.
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Chris, that is why the passage says "now we have..." You can argue that it refers to "now" (from the perspective of the time of the writing of those words) or now in a more general sense (i.e. all time between here and the new earth.
That "clarification" is hardly adequate. There is a big difference in "heaven" (where the apostle Paul now is) and the new earth (the final, perfected place where the apostle Paul will be).
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
But I'm done bantering about this. I sit uncomfortable with the fact that the artificiality of the interpretation of "the perfect" being presented by some in this thread is so apparent that many, many, many folks errantly think that cessationism is equally artificial. Look for a better argument, folks.
Originally posted by joshua
Yeah, it's pretty safe to say I'm Cessationist. I read MacArthur's [u:3ea134ef59]The Charasmatics[/u:3ea134ef59] several years ago...I thought it was great.
Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Actually, shortly after I first became convinced of the doctrines of grace, I had looked heavily into their ministry, and was planning on joining one of their churches, and perhaps even going to their seminary someday. Then I became enlightened...uh, I mean, then I became convinced of paedobaptism and cessationism .
Seriously, though, their "main" church is Covenant Life in Gaithersburg, MD, close to D. C. It was pastored by C. J. Mahaney, who moved up to a higher position in the "family of churches" (they prefer not to be called a denomination), and Harris now pastors it. All of Harris' books are either on dating or the sin of lust, and I have read all of his except his latest, and he doesn't really get into theology. But he wrote an article in which he says that he considers Sovereign Grace churches to be Reformed, except for three rejections: cessationism, paedobaptism and church government. While they do not take their charismatism to the level of full-fledged Pentecostals (such as the tongues-as-exclusive-Spirit-baptism-evidence doctrine, or the "holy dancing" seen at so-called revivals), the use of the revelatory gifts is nonetheless a primary emphasis of theirs, and not just a side thing.
Robin Boisvert, a minister of pastoral care at Covenant Life, was one of the first pastors I talked to when I was first investigating the doctrines of grace. He was very helpful on explaning some key verses for me, and he sent me a copy of Packer's introduction to Death of Death. Furthermore, C. J. Mahaney does have a good book entitled The Cross-Centered Life, and I think Sovereign Grace Ministries can be beneficial in helping those with a Pentecostal background (like myself) begin to discover some of the tenets of Reformed theology. Even so, I could not in good conscience recommend them to anyone as a long-term church possibility, as they are basically Reformed Baptists who also heavily embrace the charismatic gifts and reject any form of church government beyond congregationalism.
originally posted by mattbauer
At any rate, how should i interpret what they are doing in the chapel services. By this i mean, are they posessed? I do not have this sort of discernment to tell what is going on. All i know is it makes no sense to me.
Also how can i try to refute these other teens that are caught up in this?
Originally posted by Richard King
Could this be a type of tongues different than the ones for prophecy?
Something for the private prayer closet that Paul spoke of? Some texts say groanings and utterances dont they?
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.