-

Status
Not open for further replies.
As a disclaimer, I think some of the lumping in of Piper with the other excesses mentioned was neither helpful, nor accurate. The style could have been better executed. Overall, though, I think they are correct about personality cults and self-appointed preachers, etc.
Click to expand...

Even with its deficiencies, it is still good to hear such a message.
 
There was a time that I really liked Dr.Piper, but I could no longer stomach other Christians treating him like he's beyond human. I know that that's not entirely his fault, but he seems to be enjoying all the praise.
 
I've never been a fan of Piper - too squishy for me. While he's done much good for the kingdom, he lost me entirely with his "Christian hedonism" in which he does the same as Rick Warren and flips the script upside down, putting man at the center. Piper has had some reformed credentials that have served to blind folks to his errors.

Mega-churches are wrong, in my opinion from what I understand from the Scriptures, and men who lead and preach at them are not pastors - they cannot pastor such a large group; they are preachers.

Piper was complicit in the evolution of becoming an idol of sorts at his church. The applause of men is addictive. May God have mercy.
 
I have heard about how Reformed folk dislike Piper's ministry and I have always wondered why it so. Perhaps I will learn something about it in this thread.

MightyManfred said:
…"Christian hedonism" …flips the script upside down, putting man at the center.
Click to expand...

I thought God was at the center of "Christian Hedonism." Could you explain for us how it puts man at the center?

MightyManfred said:
…Piper was complicit in the evolution of becoming an idol of sorts at his church. The applause of men is addictive. May God have mercy.
Click to expand...

Are you able and willing to offer proof of how he was an accomplice to being made an idol?
 
Lol this thread should probably be closed as I can already see this is a hot button topic. Thanks for posting though Joshua. I think the link you provided says it all.
 
Joshua said:
These are discussions for another thread. :judge:
Click to expand...

Noted.

Forget all the schlub missionaries who have been ordained and slaving away with their very lives in the study of God's Word and the preaching of the glorious Word of God in all of the multi-faceted cultures and corners of the earth where they live, and have raised their families there, and have poured themselves into understanding the people they're serving so they can preach the Gospel faithfully. I mean, FINALLY, we're gonna get what we needed, which is the DesiringGod website being marketed better, and translated into many more languages and the voice of Piper going out as the Pastor and Apostle to the nations. THAT is what is needed, and that is the gap that he's stepping in to fill."
Click to expand...

With what portion of this quote do you agree?
 
sevenzedek said:
Joshua said:
These are discussions for another thread. :judge:
Click to expand...

Noted.

Forget all the schlub missionaries who have been ordained and slaving away with their very lives in the study of God's Word and the preaching of the glorious Word of God in all of the multi-faceted cultures and corners of the earth where they live, and have raised their families there, and have poured themselves into understanding the people they're serving so they can preach the Gospel faithfully. I mean, FINALLY, we're gonna get what we needed, which is the DesiringGod website being marketed better, and translated into many more languages and the voice of Piper going out as the Pastor and Apostle to the nations. THAT is what is needed, and that is the gap that he's stepping in to fill."
Click to expand...

With what portion of this quote do you agree?
Click to expand...

If Dr.Piper really meant what he said, than I'd be forced to agree with the entirety of the quote you posted above. I think if he doesn't want to be misunderstood he needs to be more clear.
 
MightyManfred said:
I've never been a fan of Piper - too squishy for me. While he's done much good for the kingdom, he lost me entirely with his "Christian hedonism" in which he does the same as Rick Warren and flips the script upside down, putting man at the center. Piper has had some reformed credentials that have served to blind folks to his errors.
Click to expand...

Piper was a student of Daniel P. Fuller back in the day. Way back then Fuller loved using Edwards and I believe that Piper may have come by his Calvinistic views via Edwards in one of Dan's classes. And, with all of that "religious affections" stuff, who knows? My uneducated guess is that in the brilliant and fertile mind of Dr. Piper, some of the themes of the Great Awakening and some of the particularities of Edwardsian Calvinism morphed into the Christian hedonism themes.
 
Not to get into specifics but this thread does bring up a good point, there is a culture of "celebrity" within the reformed community, not just with individual pastors but also parachurch organizations. After the whole elephant room thing I backed way off both celebrity pastors and parachurch groups, focusing instead on my local church and the teaching of my local pastors. Not knocking anyone, I just fear that this culture of celebrity isn't a good thing and is getting out of hand. Just my two cents :)
 
Joshua said:
Friends, please let's not make this about Piper's personality, or impute ill intentions to him. I was really more interested in the ecclesiastical emphasis, but I may have made a poor decision in posting this. His teaching is fair game for criticism, but let's not surmise evil or be nasty. I am sorry if in posting this thread I have provoked such.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was a poor decision to post it. I think people should be aware of such things as this. Whether it's Piper or someone else, I agree with you that they made salient points about cults of personality and self-appointed preachers, etc.
 
So who else was a little surprised that the intro song to this "reformed pastor's" radio show is Iron Man by Black Sabbath? I wonder when the last time John Piper used God-hating music to intro something posted on his website...
 
Personally, I've found Piper to be a faithful pastor and preacher of God's truth in Scripture, always with the aim at the glory of God. I find many of the objections to him to be unfounded or based upon uncharitable readings of his corpus.
 
Jeff Burns said:
So who else was a little surprised that the intro song to this "reformed pastor's" radio show is Iron Man by Black Sabbath? I wonder when the last time John Piper used God-hating music to intro something posted on his website...
Click to expand...

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."-Matthew 7:3-5
 
Greetings:

I think the speakers have brought up a good point: Is Dr. Piper guilty of pastoral narcissism?

My own critique of him is different, but, certainly, these two men have raised some good questions about Piper's ministry.

Blessings,

Rob
 
Bill The Baptist said:
Jeff Burns said:
So who else was a little surprised that the intro song to this "reformed pastor's" radio show is Iron Man by Black Sabbath? I wonder when the last time John Piper used God-hating music to intro something posted on his website...
Click to expand...

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."-Matthew 7:3-5
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for making an observation. I guess I should've just accused them of having planks in their eyes.
 
Jeff Burns said:
I'm sorry for making an observation. I guess I should've just accused them of having planks in their eyes.
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting that they don't have a right to critique John Piper, obviously he has put himself out there as a public figure and so he is fair game, and I would also agree with much of their critique. I do, however, feel that perhaps they ought to follow the admonition of Christ and take a look a themselves as well. I think if they did, they would come to the same conclusion that we have, that it is not honoring or glorifying to God to play such music on a Christian radio show. The point is that we should examine ourselves BEFORE we examine others, and once we have done so, our perception of others will be all the more clear.
 
Bill,

I apologize for missing the point of your original post. I mistook you as quoting Matthew 7 at me for my observation, when really we were both trying to say the same thing in different ways.
 
:lol: Oh yes, let's not appear to lift up any man or group of men who have thoroughly blessed the church. And heaven forbid we create a Board to talk about him or THEM.
 
I am no diehard Piper Apologist, however....

I find it interesting that Dr. Piper and particular aspects of his teachings have so clearly been used of God to His glory and still show much potential among the nations and yet he is criticized for trying to proclaim them further to the glory of the Lord. No, he's not perfect. Yes, there are certain teachings of his that are not desirable. However, it is not arrogant to point out the obvious, that Desiring God has been used by the Lord powerfully, and pointing that out is not to deny that the Lord uses many others at the same time as the church fulfills the Great Commission. However, if Piper (in the original post) is speaking of his own ministry and his own direction, it is not necessary to painstakingly qualify his statements to say of course Desiring God is not the only ministry being used, and of course there are thousands on the front lines who are being used as well. Anyway, if Pastor Kaloostian's uncharitable quote in the original message is any indication of the content of the rest of the message, it sounds like a waste of my time. If we substituted another faithful teacher like John Owen or John Calvin, I suspect that most of us would fawn over the idea of spreading their teachings about the nations to the edification of the saints. So, why not celebrate a ministry that is working to disseminate genuinely helpful material such as Desiring God, The Pleasures of God, Future Justificiation, etc.?
 
AThornquist said:
:lol: Oh yes, let's not appear to lift up any man or group of men who have thoroughly blessed the church. And heaven forbid we create a Board to talk about him or THEM.
Click to expand...

I think it's easier because they're dead. How could a dead person be puffed up and pride themselves via a cult of personality? We instead live in historical nostalgia. <--good movie by the way.

Out of curiosity, was this kind of thing present with the Westminster Divines? Or was it more like how we view our Congress?
 
I agree with you, Chuck. However, that's quite a subjective standard. If we lived in Spurgeon's day would we dread to quote him or share one of his tracts, whereas today it is no issue? I think the far more Biblical answer is to seek to move forward in the proclamation of the Gospel as the Church of Christ and to use the best and most beneficial tools at our disposal. For some in the Church the most beneficial tools at their disposal are from Desiring God, and it is simply not my place to judge the hearts of the leaders of Desiring God or to be terrified that they might become puffed up. They have One Judge, and it is not me. I will not glorify Dr. Piper, but neither will I take it upon myself to worry about if he in some degree enjoys his notoriety. It would all be vain, uncharitable speculation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top