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Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Randy,
Okeee dokeee
Is your life going to be committed to complicating the Gospel?
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by just_grace
Originally posted by Draught Horse
New with respect to a more powerful application of redemption and the lack of typological shadows which had indeed pointed to Christ.
Renewed with respect to its goal and entrance therein.
Is your life going to be committed to complicating the Gospel?
well, he could commit it to constantly posting esoteric one-liners on Christian message boards...
I don't accept this interpretation. I don't believe that the New Covenant does not have internal and external members, just as the old covenant did. The visible and invisible church distinction is just as important in the new as it was in the old.Regeneration is only different in the New Covenant in that it is true of every New Covenant Member as Martin showed in his above quote. All will Know Me.
The ultimate conclusion of this thinking is that we may only interact experientially with the elect of God, which leads to inconsistency at best and hypercalvinism at worst. The elect aren't tatooed or have signs above their head. So without such, we must live our lives before God and men knowing that there will be some who say "Lord, Lord," who we thought were "in like Flynn".
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Well, it's your privilege in ths life not to accept it, but it is the clear and plain teaching of Jer 31 and Heb 8, and I cited several supporting Scriptures. The difference between the First and New Covenants is that in the NC, everyone will know the Lord. They may not know all ABOUT Him, but they all know Him. The question is, are you and others prepared to follow the Scriptures wherever they lead you, or will you cling to your position because 'it's in the confession'?
Who says 'we may only interact experientially with the elect of God'? Read 1Cor 5:9ff. We interact all our lives with the non-elect, being, 'Children of God, without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life' (Phil 2:15-16 ).
You are quite right that there will be those who appear to be 'in like Flynn', but whom events will prove not to be in at all. These were never in covenant with the Lord. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST THAT NONE OF THEM WERE OF US' (1John 2:19 ). And the Lord will say to them on the Last Day, 'I NEVER knew you!' (Matt 7:23). Not when the Minister was splashing you with water; not while you were in Sunday School; not while you were listening to the service or taking the Lord's Supper. Not even while you were in Seminary. NEVER! Because you never saw yourself as a lost sinner so as to fly to Me for salvation.'
Of course we reject this notion that the new covenant is of two houses only, but we can spiritualize Israel. What do we do with Judah? Why is this covenant made with the house of Judah? Who is this historically? Who is it going forward in the new covenant?
'For he is not a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one outwardly; nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.'
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Hello Kevin,
You wrote:-
Of course we reject this notion that the new covenant is of two houses only, but we can spiritualize Israel. What do we do with Judah? Why is this covenant made with the house of Judah? Who is this historically? Who is it going forward in the new covenant?
I think you are making too much of this, but I can tell you who Judah is in the New Covenant.
The Greek word for 'Judah' is 'Ioudas'. The word for an inhabitant of Judah is 'Ioudaios.' In Rom 2:28-29, we read:-
'For he is not a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one outwardly; nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.'
Such are the members of the New Covenant, and such therefore are the proper subjects for baptism. The fact that we cannot always distinguish them from false believers does not make this any less true, and is no excuse whatsoever for making void the word of God by admitting all and sundry into the Ekklesia of God by infant baptism.
Grace & Peace,
Martin
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Kevin,
Is the New Covenant Church Isreal?
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
So does God graft in dead branches? That just doesn't seem correct by the passage.
Originally posted by kceaster
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
So does God graft in dead branches? That just doesn't seem correct by the passage.
Well, I hope He grafts in dead branches, because otherwise the Gentile has no hope.
Were you meaning to ask are cutoff branches grafted back in?
In Christ,
KC
Originally posted by kceaster
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Hello Kevin,
You wrote:-
Of course we reject this notion that the new covenant is of two houses only, but we can spiritualize Israel. What do we do with Judah? Why is this covenant made with the house of Judah? Who is this historically? Who is it going forward in the new covenant?
I think you are making too much of this, but I can tell you who Judah is in the New Covenant.
The Greek word for 'Judah' is 'Ioudas'. The word for an inhabitant of Judah is 'Ioudaios.' In Rom 2:28-29, we read:-
'For he is not a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one outwardly; nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew ('Ioudaios') who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.'
So, the new covenant was made with inhabitants of Judah? How does house of Judah equivocate to inhabitant of Judah? The Romans occupied Judah, was the new covenant made with them?
As for making too much of this, the new covenant is made with an entity that is the house of Judah. We need to know what this means. You take it nowhere which is a mistake. God has certain people in mind when He talks about this house. In order for someone to be included in the covenant, they have to be connected to this house. So my question to you is, who is this talking about?
This "New Covenant" was not to be "according to the covenant made with their fathers;" i.e., it is to be of an entirely different kind. Into that covenant they were brought as the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; into this they will be brought by walking in the steps of these patriarch's faith. That covenant was external and temporary; this is spiritual and eternal.
Such are the members of the New Covenant, and such therefore are the proper subjects for baptism. The fact that we cannot always distinguish them from false believers does not make this any less true, and is no excuse whatsoever for making void the word of God by admitting all and sundry into the Ekklesia of God by infant baptism.
We make void the Word of God? Really? How? By our baptizing disciples? We are commanded to do so. We don't go out of our way to baptize any child. We are baptizing only those children whose parents are trusting in God for their child's salvation and who will be raised as disciples. How is that making the Word of God void?
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Originally posted by kceaster
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
So does God graft in dead branches? That just doesn't seem correct by the passage.
Well, I hope He grafts in dead branches, because otherwise the Gentile has no hope.
Were you meaning to ask are cutoff branches grafted back in?
In Christ,
KC
I was infering that Christ only grafted in regenerate branches.
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Kevin, this is talking about Christians, those who are Jews inwardly as Rom 2:28f shows. Listen to Paul again:-
'For we are the circumcision [ie. Jews] who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and place no confidence in the flesh' (Phil 3:3 ). John Brown of Edinburgh wrote:-
This "New Covenant" was not to be "according to the covenant made with their fathers;" i.e., it is to be of an entirely different kind. Into that covenant they were brought as the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; into this they will be brought by walking in the steps of these patriarch's faith. That covenant was external and temporary; this is spiritual and eternal.
We make void the Word of God? Really? How? By our baptizing disciples? We are commanded to do so. We don't go out of our way to baptize any child. We are baptizing only those children whose parents are trusting in God for their child's salvation and who will be raised as disciples. How is that making the Word of God void?
"Making the word of God of no effect (i.e. void) through your tradition which you have handed down" (Mark 7:13 ). There is no command to baptize infants and the Bible does not say that the faith of the parents saves their children (Ezek 18:20 ). The OT texts that you and Paul are so fond of must be read in the light of Gal 3:7, 26-29.
Therefore, since you are not following the Bible, which commands only the baptism of disciples, you are following tradition and making void the word of God.
Grace & Peace,
Martin
On the contrary, it is ONLY "spiritual Judah" who enter the New Covenant. That is the clear meaning of Jer 31 and Heb 8. Read Phil 3:3 again. The concept of a 'visible' or 'invisible' church is unhelpful.You made a clear inference that "spiritual Judah" is the Jew of these passages. I agree that not all who are Jews are Jews inwardly. This shows the visible/invisible church distinction.
I disagree. A 'disciple' in the NT is someone who is a follower of Christ. Not all were true disciples (John 8:31 ), but they had made their own, conscious decision to follow Him.The reason we baptize our children is because we have faith that God will save them if it is His will to do so. They are disciples. We are teaching them the things the Lord wants us to teach them. They are no less a disciple than anyone else.
It is always good to be able to end on a point of agreement. To this I can sayGod doesn't save them because of our faith. If He saves them it will be because He gave them faith to believe.
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Kevin,
First of all, I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I should not have personalized my comments. However, let me say that I am not pursuing this question of baptism purely as an accademic exercise, or out of a love of controversy. I am doing it because I believe that infant baptism, and especially the doctrine of 'Presumptive Regeneration' is wrong and unscriptural and produces, as all wrong doctrine must, unhappy results.
On the contrary, it is ONLY "spiritual Judah" who enter the New Covenant. That is the clear meaning of Jer 31 and Heb 8. Read Phil 3:3 again. The concept of a 'visible' or 'invisible' church is unhelpful.
I disagree. A 'disciple' in the NT is someone who is a follower of Christ. Not all were true disciples (John 8:31 ), but they had made their own, conscious decision to follow Him.
It is always good to be able to end on a point of agreement. To this I can say
Grace & Peace,
Martin
Just as God made a covenant with Abraham, he promised a New Covenant to come later. He made this New Covenant in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus consciously and specifically established "the New Covenant." The Apostle Paul said he was "a servant of the New Covenant." How can this be if there is but one Covenant of Grace? The New Covenant is new, as contrasted with Moses, but not as contrasted with Abraham or Adam.
This is the point of Galatians 3:1-29; 4:21-31, and 2 Corinthians 3:7-18 where Paul says that the glory of the Old Covenant was fading but the glory of the New Covenant is permanent. The message of Hebrews chapters 3-10 is that the Old Covenant (under Moses) was preparatory to the New Covenant. The fundamental theme of Hebrews 11 is that Abraham had a New Covenant faith, that is, he anticipated a heavenly city and to the redemption which we have in Christ.
Abraham is a New Covenant Figure
It is also important to remember that not everything which was given before Jesus is eliminated in the New Covenant. The fact that our Bibles are divided into the Old and new Testaments, gives some believers the impression that everything which occurs before Jesus' birth is part of the Old Covenant. This is not accurate.
When the Bible uses the term "Old Covenant" it refers to the period of Moses until the beginning of the New Covenant. Not everything which happens in the Bible before Jesus-namely the period of Adam to Abraham-belongs in the Old Covenant proper.
Jesus said in John 7:22 that circumcision was not from Moses, but from the Patriarchs. That means that circumcision does not belong, originally to the Old Covenant (Moses) but the Abraham.
Abraham has a very special relationship to New Covenant believers. In Romans 4:1-25, Paul says that Abraham is the "Father" of those who believe. Likewise, in Galatians 3:29 all believers are said to be "Abraham's offspring and heirs according to the promise."
In many ways, Abraham is a New Covenant figure. Believers are his spiritual descendants. He is said to have looked forward to Jesus' first coming. He is a model of faith for believers in Hebrews 11:8-19; Galatians chapters 3 and 4. So what is true of Abraham is usually true of New Covenant believers. Just as Abraham's faith in Jesus (John 8:56) sets the pattern for New Covenant believers, so also his circumcision, and that of Isaac, sets the pattern for New Covenant baptism.
In many ways, Abraham is a New Covenant figure. Believers are his spiritual descendants. He is said to have looked forward to Jesus' first coming. He is a model of faith for believers in Hebrews 11:8-19; Galatians chapters 3 and 4. So what is true of Abraham is usually true of New Covenant believers. Just as Abraham's faith in Jesus (John 8:56) sets the pattern [better 'a pattern'- Martin] for New Covenant believers,
so also his circumcision, and that of Isaac, sets the pattern for New Covenant baptism.