A false claim: That it is sinful to say actors impersonating Christ is sin.

[Matthew Willard Lankford]

Coming to the end of Richard Daniels book on the
Christology of John Owen, I read this :- Owen believed,
"that any man-made form, no matter how beautiful, no
matter what its reputation for illustrating the glory of Christ,
dishonoured Christ by inevitably obscuring His true glory. This glory could not be represented with man's arts, but could only be known through the word of the Gospel.
By the way its an excellent read.

Thanks for sharing, Jeff! Here are some relevant selections from John Owen's work:

"He who lives in the exercise of Faith and Love in the Lord Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Gospel, as evidently crucified, and evidently exalted therein, and finds the fruit of his so doing in his own Soul; will be preserved in the time of Trial. Without this, men will at last begin to think that it is better to have a false Christ than none at all; they will suppose that something is to be found in an Image, when they can find nothing in the Gospel."~John Owen

"The glory that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the real actual possession of in heaven can be no otherwise seen or apprehended in this world, but in the light of faith fixing itself on divine revelation. To behold this glory of Christ is not an act of fancy or imagination. It does not consist in framing unto ourselves the shape of a glorious person in heaven. But the steady exercise of faith on the revelation and description made of this glory of Christ in the Scripture, is the ground, rule, and measure, of all divine meditations thereon."~John Owen

"It is no work of fancy or imagination; it is not the feigning images in our minds, of such things as are meet to satisfy our carnal affection, to excite and act them; but it is a due adherence unto that object which is represented unto faith in the proposal of the gospel. Therein, as in a glass, do we behold the glory of Christ, who is the image of the invisible God, and have our souls filled with transforming affections unto him."~John Owen

"But the ancient Christians told those men the truth; namely, that as they had feigned unto themselves an imaginary Christ, so they should have an imaginary salvation only."~John Owen

"But that which is produced by an image, is but an image; an imaginary Christ will effect nothing in the minds of men, but imaginary grace."~John Owen

"The shadow or image of this glory of Christ is drawn in the gospel, and therein we behold it as the likeness of a man represented unto us in a glass; and although it be obscure and imperfect in comparison of his own real, substantial glory, which is the object of vision in heaven ; yet is it the only image and representation of himself, which he hath left, and given unto us in this world. That woeful cursed invention of framing images of him out of stocks and stones, however adorned, or representations of him by the art of painting, are so far from presenting unto the minds of men any thing of his real glory, that nothing can be more effectual to divert their thoughts and apprehensions from it. But by this figurative expression of seeing in a glass, the Apostle declares the comparative imperfection of our present view of the glory of Christ."~John Owen

"And therefore those who dream of his personal reign on the earth before the day of judgment, unless they suppose that all the saints shall be perfectly glorified also, (which is only to bring down heaven to the earth for a while, to no purpose), provide not at all for the edification or consolation of the church ; for no present grace advanced unto the highest degree whereof in this world it is capable, can make us meet for an immediate converse with Christ in his unvailed glory.

How much more abominable is the folly of men, who would represent the Lord Christ in his present glory by pictures and images of him? When they have done their utmost with their burnished glass and gildings, an eye of flesh can not only behold it, but if it be guided by reason, see if contemptible and foolish. But the true glory of Christ neither inward nor outward sight can bear the rays of in this life.

The dispensation which we are meet for, is only that of his 'presence with us by the Spirit. We know him now no more after the flesh,' 2 Cor. v. 16. We are advanced above that way and means "of the knowledge of him by the fleshly carnal ordinances of the Old Testament. And we know him not according unto that bodily presence of his, which his disciples enjoyed in the days of his flesh. We have attained somewhat above that also : for such was the nature of his ministry here on earth, that there could not be the promised dispensation of the Spirit until that was finished. Therefore he tells his disciples, that 'it was expedient for him that he should go away and send the Spirit to them,' John xvi. 7. Hereon they had a clearer view of the glory of Christ, than they could have by beholding him in the flesh. This is our spiritual posture and condition. We are past the knowledge of him according to the flesh; we cannot attain nor receive the sight of him in glory; but 'the lite which we now lead, is by the faith of the Son of God.'"~John Owen

“So do the Papists delude themselves. Their carnal affections are excited by their outward senses to delight in images of Christ,—in his sufferings, his resurrection, and glory above. Hereon they satisfy themselves that they behold the glory of Christ himself and that with love and great delight. But whereas there is not the least true representation made of the Lord Christ or his glory in these things,—that being confined absolutely unto the gospel alone, and this way of attempting it being laid under a severe interdict,—they do but sport themselves with their own deceivings.”~John Owen

“This, therefore, is evident, that the introduction of this abomination, in principle and practice destructive unto the souls of men, took its rise from the loss of an experience of the representation of Christ in the gospel, and the transforming power in the minds of men which it is accompanied with, in them that believe. We may have seen hence the vanity as well as the idolatry of them who would represent Christ in glory as the object of our adoration in pictures and images. They fashion wood or stone into a likeness of a man. They adorn it with colors and flourishes of art, to set it forth unto the senses and fancies of superstitious person as having a resemblance of glory. And when they have done, the lavish gold out of the bag, as the prophets speaks, and so propose it as an image or resemblance of Christ in glory. But what is there in it that hath the least respect thereunto,—the least likeness of it?, nay, is it not the most effectual means that can be derived to divert the mind of men from true and real apprehensions of it? Doth it teach anything of the subsistence of the human nature of Christ in the person of the Son of God? Nay, it doth it obliterate all thought of it! What is represented thereby of the union of it unto God, and the immediate communications of God unto it? Doth it declare the manifestation of all the glorious properties of the divine nature in him? Persons who know not what it is to live by faith may be pleased for a time, and ruined for ever, by these delusions. Those who have real faith in Christ, and love unto him, have a more glorious object for their exercise.”~John Owen

"It is the eye of faith alone that can see this King in his beauty."~John Owen

 

[thatbrian]

"Why are traditional Reformed churches struggling?" That was the title of a thread here back in October. One excellent response was:

"1. Some traditional Reformed churches are smug. Not only do they insist on practices that even other traditional Reformed folks sometimes disagree about, but they take their superior practices as a source of pride. They may say outwardly that they're patient with those who don't get it, but inwardly they're smug... and visitors can tell. Smugness is not only a turn off; it reveals spiritual immaturity.

2. Some traditional Reformed churches are insular. They wait for outsiders to come to them (and are critical when no one just shows up out of the blue), but they seldom go out into their communities to be a church engaged with the world. Their first instinct is to protect themselves from evil, outside influences... and only as a secondary thought do they consider going out to engage others—and then always warily, defensively, or even combatively. In addition, not only do their services befuddle visitors, the insular tone of the gathering makes those visitors feel like it'd take forever to fit in. These churches are so wary of being "seeker friendly" that they do little to avoid being confusing or cold to seekers.

3. Some traditional Reformed churches put theological correctness so far ahead of loving kindness that love is all but lost. Though they rightly see the great importance of correct theology, they forget that Jesus said his disciples would be known to the world by their love for each other. They think their correct theology and proper worship should be enough to commend them to men—forgetting that isn't what Jesus said. Although there may be deep love within the church's inner circle, any newcomers who happen to arrive are treated with a measure of suspicion until they prove they're kosher Reformed.

4. Some traditional Reformed churches (not so many anymore, I think, but still some) have forgotten to be captivated by Jesus. They easily get cerebral. They defiantly continue to preach the law. They harp on the doctrines of grace. But they're so determined think better and act better and confess better that they end up viewing the Savior aloofly, from a thoughtful distance; seldom being simply delighted in the marvelous Person they know. Where Jesus the person (not just the doctrine) is seldom preached, other churches must resort to bells and whistles. Traditional Reformed churches rightly eschew such showiness, but some fail to actually delight in the better alternative. They're more about being anti-showy than they are about being pro-Jesus.

Now, if I were to move to a new town and search for a church to join, I'd surely look at some traditional Reformed churches if there were any. I'd look for correct theology and proper worship. But I'd also look for humility, sense of mission, love, and delight in Jesus—and I should look for such things. Some traditional Reformed churches would not get me as a member because they would fail the second half of that test."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

After reading this thread, I can certainly say AMEN to the above. If the majority of folks here think that portraying Christ in a movie is blasphemy, I'm just about ready to turn in my Reformed membership card. . . And, it certainly goes a long way in explaining why many reformed churches are dying. The persnickety nature of most of us (yes, me too) can really detract from Christ, His glory, His gospel, and His church.

Can folks not see the difference between creating an idol for the purpose of worshipping it and the retelling the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection using film???

 

[thatbrian]

Lynnie,

I live in/near the area of at least one the PCA churches in question. They brought in Peter Enns as a "visiting scholar". Firstly, that made me ill, and secondly it meant that I (a PCA guy) had one less option for church, in an area with too few (good) reformed options.

 

[py3ak]

Can folks not see the difference between creating an idol for the purpose of worshipping it and the retelling the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection using film?

[Moderator]
It is not a question of being blind to a difference in intent. The fact is that good intentions don't justify actions that are merely imprudent, and much less actions that are positively wrong.

Q. 109. What sins are forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.

This is part of the confessional standard that we uphold on the Board. Perhaps this post will help explain the rationale for it. But in any case, advocacy of positions against the confessional standards we have adopted is not permitted. This thread may help explain our approach.
[/Moderator]

 

[Matthew Willard Lankford]

I appreciate the moderation, Ruben.

For those who may not subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith, it is important to note that historically Particular Baptists also believed that making purported images of the Lord Jesus Christ is unlawful. See Baptist minister Hercules Collins' An Orthodox Catechism (a Baptist adaption of the Heidelberg Catechism Orthodox Catechism - Hercules Collins):

Q. 105 What is idolatry?
A. Idolatry is having or inventing something in which one trusts in place of or alongside of the only true God, who has revealed himself in his Word.1

1
1 Chron. 16:26; Gal. 4:8-9; Eph. 5:5; Phil. 3:19

Q. 106. What is the Second Commandment?
A. Thou shalt make to thee no graven Image, nor the Likeness of any thing which is in Heaven above, or in he Earth beneath, nor in the Waters under the Earth: thou shalt not bow down to them,nor worship them, for I the Lord thy God and a jealous God, and visit the sins of the Fathers upon the Children, unto the third and fourth Generation of them that hate me, and shew Mercy to thousands of them which love me, and keep my Commandments.

Q. 107 What is God's will for us in the second commandment?
A. That we in no way make any image of God1 nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his Word.2

1
Deut. 4:15-19; Isa. 40:18-25; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:22-23

2
Lev. 10:1-7; 1 Sam. 15:22-23; John 4:23-24

Q. 108 May we then not make any image at all?
A. God can not and may not be visibly portrayed in any way. Although creatures may be portrayed, yet God forbids making or having such images if one's intention is to worship them or to serve God through them.1

1
Ex. 34:13-14, 17; 2 Kings 18:4-5

Q. 109 But may not images be permitted in the churches as teaching aids for the unlearned?
A. No, we shouldn't try to be wiser than God. He wants his people instructed by the living preaching of his Word—1not by idols that cannot even talk.2

1
Rom. 10:14-15, 17; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:19

2
Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-20

cf. Benjamin Beddome's A Scriptural Exposition of the Baptist Catechism (http://books.google.com/books?id=16c9AAAAYAAJ):

§ Is it a sin to worship the true God by images? Yes. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves, for ye saw no manner of similitude, Deut. iv. 15, 16. Can we form any image of God in our minds? No. To whom will ye liken God? Isa. xl. 18. Is it impossible then to form it with our hands? Yes. For we must not think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver, or stone graven by art or man's device, Acts xvii. 29. Do those therefore that attempt it put a great affront upon him? Yes. They change the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like unto corruptible man, Rom. i. 23.

cf. this selection from Benjamin Keach's The Progress of SIN, OR THE TRAVELS OF Ungodliness (p. 39 http://books.google.com/books?id=WtkCAAAAQAAJ):

This Seth begat Enos, so he is called in Greek; in Hebrew, Ænosh; that is by Interpretation, sorrowful, sick, miserable; so named 'tis thought, from the Consideration of the woeful State of those Days. For, it seems, that Sin prevailed wonderfully (as worthy Annotationers make report) by profane calling on the Almighty, and by calling Idols by the Name of the Lord, and by making Images and Representations of Him.

cf. this observation from Charles Spurgeon's sermon Iconoclast Sermon #960 Volume 16 (http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols16-18/chs960.pdf):

THE First Commandment instructs us that there is but one God, who alone is to be worshipped. And the Second Commandment teaches that no attempt is to be made to represent the Lord, neither are we to bow down before any form of sacred similitude.

I also appreciated the way Albert Martin treated the subject of the Mel Gibson's idolatrous Passion movie, though I would caution a warning when referring people to John Piper, since Piper said "God broke the Second Commandment when he became incarnate" and endorses the use of forbidden images (source: http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/john-piper-2nd-commandment-36910/; note the link to the audio is broken on the original discussion, but can still be found here: http://media.desiringgod.org/audio/conferences/bcp2004/20040204_panel.mp3): The Passion Movie: To See or Not To See - SermonAudio.com

 

[jwithnell]

He has given us His Word, and given us the means by which we are to communicate God's Grace

This point cannot be over-emphasized. By giving us his word, people throughout all ages have been able to know God's mind. A movie can never replace the glory of Christ or the glory of his preached word.

 

[Peairtach]

"Why are traditional Reformed churches struggling?" That was the title of a thread here back in October. One excellent response was:

"1. Some traditional Reformed churches are smug. Not only do they insist on practices that even other traditional Reformed folks sometimes disagree about, but they take their superior practices as a source of pride. They may say outwardly that they're patient with those who don't get it, but inwardly they're smug... and visitors can tell. Smugness is not only a turn off; it reveals spiritual immaturity.

2. Some traditional Reformed churches are insular. They wait for outsiders to come to them (and are critical when no one just shows up out of the blue), but they seldom go out into their communities to be a church engaged with the world. Their first instinct is to protect themselves from evil, outside influences... and only as a secondary thought do they consider going out to engage others—and then always warily, defensively, or even combatively. In addition, not only do their services befuddle visitors, the insular tone of the gathering makes those visitors feel like it'd take forever to fit in. These churches are so wary of being "seeker friendly" that they do little to avoid being confusing or cold to seekers.

3. Some traditional Reformed churches put theological correctness so far ahead of loving kindness that love is all but lost. Though they rightly see the great importance of correct theology, they forget that Jesus said his disciples would be known to the world by their love for each other. They think their correct theology and proper worship should be enough to commend them to men—forgetting that isn't what Jesus said. Although there may be deep love within the church's inner circle, any newcomers who happen to arrive are treated with a measure of suspicion until they prove they're kosher Reformed.

4. Some traditional Reformed churches (not so many anymore, I think, but still some) have forgotten to be captivated by Jesus. They easily get cerebral. They defiantly continue to preach the law. They harp on the doctrines of grace. But they're so determined think better and act better and confess better that they end up viewing the Savior aloofly, from a thoughtful distance; seldom being simply delighted in the marvelous Person they know. Where Jesus the person (not just the doctrine) is seldom preached, other churches must resort to bells and whistles. Traditional Reformed churches rightly eschew such showiness, but some fail to actually delight in the better alternative. They're more about being anti-showy than they are about being pro-Jesus.

Now, if I were to move to a new town and search for a church to join, I'd surely look at some traditional Reformed churches if there were any. I'd look for correct theology and proper worship. But I'd also look for humility, sense of mission, love, and delight in Jesus—and I should look for such things. Some traditional Reformed churches would not get me as a member because they would fail the second half of that test."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

After reading this thread, I can certainly say AMEN to the above. If the majority of folks here think that portraying Christ in a movie is blasphemy, I'm just about ready to turn in my Reformed membership card. . . And, it certainly goes a long way in explaining why many reformed churches are dying. The persnickety nature of most of us (yes, me too) can really detract from Christ, His glory, His gospel, and His church.

Can folks not see the difference between creating an idol for the purpose of worshipping it and the retelling the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection using film???

Brian,
It would be very unwise, nay sinful, to turn away from the truth of Reformed theology because of a thread on one aspect of the Reformed teaching on the Second Commandment. Some Reformed people will feel or see the need to emphasise the subject of this thread more than others, while for other Reformed people it will be enough to hold to this and teach it, without making it a central concern of their lives. Remember all the positive aspects of the richness of Reformed theology, which is the truth of God, as well as the "negative" aspect of clearing away and pointing out error, which is also necessary in its appropriate place.

Some may find their brothers' emphasis on certain aspects of the truth to be OTT or unwarranted; but this is often a disagreement about emphasis between brothers who see eye-to-eye, rather than a disagreement about substance, although it can sometimes lead to a disagreement about substance in reaction.





Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[NaphtaliPress]

FYI. Brian asked his membership to PB be suspended, so is unable to respond to replies to the few posts he made while here.