A population facing future extinction

[satz]

It's the attitude, brother, that's the sin. If we willingly gave over to God every Christian womb, the world would be a different place today. Pastor Underwood has done just that, and God has blessed him with a child. If the Lord then closes the womb, such is His will. Adopt if the desire for more children is there.

But the long and the short of it is that our attitude toward His blessings is a big part of the problem. And he is talking about how "we" behave as (as I understand it) the visible church.

I really mean no disrespect to anyone... as this is a discussion board I am just... discussing.

If Pastor Underwood has done just that, why does he include himself as a being in sin just because of the state of the world and broad christianity today?

You yourself have shared recently the trials you and your family have gone through for your convictions. I just find it confusing why you gave such a hearty "Amen" to a post that essentially called you a sinner because of the behavior of those around you.

It may seem that I am trying to avoid responsibility, and maybe there is some element of that in my heart. But I see no wrong in wanting to see what is the biblical basis for laying blame upon someone.

If sin was discovered in my own church or my own family, even if I was not directly involved, I can see how I would be corporately responsible - those are institutions where God has placed people with responsibility. But as for the world around me and board christianity in general, I see no biblical reason I should feel ashamed for their actions.

 

[Rocketeer]

Co, at least you have Geert Wilders and a few others who are waking up. I've seen "Fitna" and it seems like many of the native Dutch have had enough of this rubbish.

Don't get me started on Wilders; the guy is eerily reminiscent of a certain one-time dictator in a neighboring country. He called for a ban on the Koran (!), and for sending back the Muslims to where they came from; the guy is a dangerous extremist.

I have a friend who says that hospitals are getting fed up with making sure that all their kitchens are Halal, etc. I pray that there is still hope for the Netherlands in this regard, though it does not seem likely in a land famed for 'tolerance'.

Since Christianity is dwindling here, the Dutch are no longer 'tolerant', but 'indifferent'; they just don't care what you do, except when what you do has anything to do with Christianity. The Dutch culture is rapidly anti-Christianizing. Muslims get more respect here than Christians - it has come so far. As for hope, the only hope I have is in God.

The sad thing is that the indifference in the general populace is also increasing the ranks of the white supremacists in Europe, since in many cases the neo-Nazis are the only ones who seem to care. If you are young, unemployed, and without a future, and someone tells you that you are part of a native-born group of people that will help rid your Fatherland of the creeping invasion of Islam (and they conveniently lay the blame for your poor state of affairs on the Muslims in the land), there is a good chance you will follow. They will invoke the name of Beatrix, Julianna, the Nederlands Binnenland Strijdkracht and the like, and even heroes of old like Piet Heyn, Willem van Oranje and Grutte Pier. And all that puffery goes a long way to filling young heads with dreams, dreams that seem on the surface to be noble and worthwhile.

True, true. The far right is not gaining such a lot of currency here, though, and Wilders is becoming marginalized, but in general, the population is moving from the political center towards left and right.

I think I understand where you are coming from, Rocketeer. I lived in SA when everyone was trying to force a non Western, uneducated, socialist majority on us, and of all the European countries, Holland was the most aggressive in demanding that we give up our rule, so forgive me if there's a bit of schadenfreude that comes through in some of my posts. And while Holland was the most vocal in pressing sanctions, Jewish groups were hugely disproportionate in handing SA over to the ANC. Of the original 6 leaders, three were Xhosa and three were Jewish. And the English speaking press in that country is almost totally dominated by Jews, and they also pushed for the end of Afrikaner rule. And while I know schadenfreude is wrong, and I do try to beat it into submission, at the end of the day the way you treat people is the way you're going to get treated, so fasten your seat belt.

Peace, peace! My grandfather is a good old Afrikaner, and my mother and most of my aunts organized pro-SA rallies here in the days of apartheid. I won't say apartheid in and of itself is a good thing, but from what my family in SA tells me, I would say it seems to have been a lot better than what you have over there now.

As you see, part of me is pretty conflicted; I have very keen Afrikaner sympathies, but am also Dutch. My SA part is angry with our letting you down, whereas my Dutch part is ashamed of it. Verstaan jij wat ek seg?

This "trying to apply" deal is something I disagree with. Those Arabs in Israel have been there at least 500 years, and certainly dozens of generations longer than the vast majority of Israeli Jews.

My choice of words might not have been correct; I mean to say that it is not just the high birth rates, which have my blessing, but that in combination with the oppressive Islam policies of keeping believers in that make Islam so inordinately strong. They become strong by their oppressive system, and that is what irks me. But it has been this way since Mohammed, and things won't change, I guess.

I have 7 kids, and almost all the Jews I know have few kids. That's their choice, as was the choices of their parent or grandparents to move to Israel.

Currently 25% of Israel's voting population are Arab (about 1.5 million) and another 3.5 Israeli Arabs, people who have been there for centuries aren't allowed even to vote.

The trick is to ask yourself what you would do in their place, both if you were an Israeli Jew and an Israeli Arab, and if you do that, things get less clear cut.

I know, I know, and you are right. The entire thing is horribly complicated; in effect, they have a sort of an apartheid as well; but I think I know that Israeli domination is better for the Arabs than Arab domination would be for the Israelis, just as white domination was better for the blacks than black domination ('equality') turned out to be for the whites in SA.

Have you, by the way, thought of why the surrounding Arab states did not just absorb the Palestinians, but let them sit in refugee camps? Can I hint at a strategy behind that?

 

[kvanlaan]

You yourself have shared recently the trials you and your family have gone through for your convictions. I just find it confusing why you gave such a hearty "Amen" to a post that essentially called you a sinner because of the behavior of those around you.

But here's the thing: When I look on my heroes, whether they be family members or Biblical heroes or Reformation heroes, I see my weakness and my lack of follow through on what I purport to believe. I do sin in my selfishness, in my looking out for #1, and there is nothing Christlike about that behaviour. I don't see anything incongruous about it. I fear that at some point in my life, I will look back and have an 'Oskar Schindler' moment, and I try to keep my eyes on what is important to avoid that.

 

[TimV]

Verstaan jij wat ek seg?

Ja, ek verstaan nou. Vrede.

Have you, by the way, thought of why the surrounding Arab states did not just absorb the Palestinians, but let them sit in refugee camps? Can I hint at a strategy behind that?

That's the big point Christian Zionists make. It's like all dark skinned Spanish speakers to many Americans. They think they're all the same. But under Biblical law you can't remove the ancient boundary stone. You just can't take someone whom you feel to be inferior and push him into another country and take their land.

Everyone's got their own theories and biases, but at the end of the day those Palestinians aren't going anywhere. The Christian Zionists don't think more than 5 years into the future, since they believe they will be Raptured before then and won't have to live with the repercussions of their actions, and the Jewish Zionists are leaning on the US like their ancestors leaned on Egypt to protect them from Babylon, and the results will be the same.

Stateless people are under a lot of stress, and it makes them act irrationally. After WW1 many Jews living in the West as refugees were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. When Poland was carved out of mostly that Empire those Jews suddenly had no passports, and Poland didn't frankly want them. The French said they couldn't stay, the Germans pushed them towards Poland and the Poles wouldn't take them in. The sat in a Gaza type refugee camp and were kept alive by international aid.

The reason that I bring this trivia up is some of the history buffs might know where I'm going. A man from this Stateless population was named Hershel Greenspan and he became deranged and murdered the German consul in France, which was the reason for Hitlers 1,000,000,000 Mark fine on the collective German Jewish population.

We'd all agree that the German response was not proportionate. So I'd submit that if we were all to take our current biases off for a bit and look at what's going on with the Gaza population, and start looking at facts, like that over the last 8 years Israel has been fighting Hamas that the kill rate is 150 to 1 in Israel's favor etc... that there is some disproportionality taking place, and it would be in everyone's interest to curb it.

 

[Pergamum]

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

 

[Rocketeer]

That's the big point Christian Zionists make. It's like all dark skinned Spanish speakers to many Americans. They think they're all the same. But under Biblical law you can't remove the ancient boundary stone. You just can't take someone whom you feel to be inferior and push him into another country and take their land.

You are right, of course, in many ways; on the other hand, the problem goes back even further than that. It starts, of course, with the English double-crossing the Jews and the Palestinians, and then the whole mess just degenerated. The current situation might be the best 'solution' obtainable, actually...

Everyone's got their own theories and biases, but at the end of the day those Palestinians aren't going anywhere.

True.

The Christian Zionists don't think more than 5 years into the future, since they believe they will be Raptured before then and won't have to live with the repercussions of their actions, and the Jewish Zionists are leaning on the US like their ancestors leaned on Egypt to protect them from Babylon, and the results will be the same.

Not true. So long as Israel is not internationally boycotted to destroy it's trade and economy, the Arab world cannot defeat it. Say what you will, but monetary US help has never increased since the fifties, and with the inflation and Israeli economical growth it now is an insubstantial convenience; the Arab nations do not have the will nor material to seriously threaten Israel, and the terrorists don't stand a chance; their methods are ineffective at best. They may spread a lot of death and misery, but they cannot fight on Israeli ground; the only thing they can hope to do is defend their homelands, fire rockets and send suicide bombers. In a few years, maybe a decade, anti-rocket systems will be so affordable and common that rockets won't be a danger anymore, and the suicide bombers are being deterred pretty effectively, especially with the wall in place now.

Stateless people are under a lot of stress, and it makes them act irrationally. After WW1 many Jews living in the West as refugees were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. When Poland was carved out of mostly that Empire those Jews suddenly had no passports, and Poland didn't frankly want them. The French said they couldn't stay, the Germans pushed them towards Poland and the Poles wouldn't take them in. They sat in a Gaza type refugee camp and were kept alive by international aid.

True, but... The Jews did not have friends who would go to war for them, like the Arab world did. It is more than a little strange that, if you are willing to let your young men die for a nation, you are not willing to take them in.

The reason that I bring this trivia up is some of the history buffs might know where I'm going. A man from this Stateless population was named Hershel Greenspan and he became deranged and murdered the German consul in France, which was the reason for Hitlers 1,000,000,000 Mark fine on the collective German Jewish population.

We'd all agree that the German response was not proportionate. So I'd submit that if we were all to take our current biases off for a bit and look at what's going on with the Gaza population, and start looking at facts, like that over the last 8 years Israel has been fighting Hamas that the kill rate is 150 to 1 in Israel's favor etc... that there is some disproportionality taking place, and it would be in everyone's interest to curb it.

Take note that Israel is not acting offensively, but defensively; the reason for the disproportionality is that Israel seeks to protect its population, whereas Hamas uses it for shielding.

Edit:

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

We are seeking a unifying theme in oppression between different races; I am saying that the Muslim tendencies shown in Indonesia are indicative of Islam. I will ditch the subject if you wish me to.

 

[Christusregnat]

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

Let's face it, it was all your fault.

 

[Pergamum]

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

Let's face it, it was all your fault.

It always is.

All we need now is to incorporate theonomy and some baptist/paedo themes and we can have a battle royale! SMACKDOWN 2009!

-----Added 1/6/2009 at 01:57:59 EST-----

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

We are seeking a unifying theme in oppression between different races; I am saying that the Muslim tendencies shown in Indonesia are indicative of Islam. I will ditch the subject if you wish me to.[/QUOTE]

No, your theme is quite on the money. Everywhere it dominates it makes all the other populations move to the fringes into a forced dhimmitude. The thread was swerved into comments on the godliness of having lots of babies and the sinfulness of not, but in the case of this province at least a large reason for the lack of babies might be blamed on the majority religion and the soon-to-become majority population, which seems to be orchestrating events, whether consciously or unconsciously, to make way for a new majority by 2011 and a radical change on this left side of the island.

 

[Christusregnat]

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

Let's face it, it was all your fault.

It always is.

All we need now is to incorporate theonomy and some baptist/paedo themes and we can have a battle royale! SMACKDOWN 2009!

You forgot EP and TR, dude!

 

[Pergamum]

So, how did we start talking about Zionists and South Africa?

We are seeking a unifying theme in oppression between different races; I am saying that the Muslim tendencies shown in Indonesia are indicative of Islam. I will ditch the subject if you wish me to.[/QUOTE]

No, your theme is quite on the money. Everywhere it dominates it makes all the other populations move to the fringes into a forced dhimmitude. The thread was swerved into comments on the godliness of having lots of babies and the sinfulness of not, but in the case of this province at least a large reason for the lack of babies might be blamed on the majority religion and the soon-to-become majority population, which seems to be orchestrating events, whether consciously or unconsciously, to make way for a new majority by 2011 and a radical change on this left side of the island.

 

[PresbyDane]

My wife comes from a family of 13 children; Andrew died shortly after birth, so 12 are living.

My in-laws have 37 grandchildren, and my wife and I have been blessed with three little ones, and we got married in May of 2005 (baby's due in Feb). There are still Christians who take dominion seriously. The basic problem is eschatology: escapist or pessimistic, or both. We will be victorious. The world is a very bad place: that's why we should be multiplying, so that Christ's people can build a city on a hill, and go forth as missionaries, pastors, doctors, statesmen, businessmen, homemakers, etc. and turn the world upside down.

Cheers,

Adam

Not that I disagree Adam because I really do not, but is that really or first priority I me yes we should multiply, if for no other reason because he said so.
But it was my impression that it did not have so much to do with this world, we are Gods chosen people, we should obey our Lord and first and foremost by telling people about him and that this it not the primary place for victory. That place is some where else.
We are not winners of this world but receivers of the next.

I think you would say the same, I just wanted to state it out loud.
Because it is so nice to tell myself.