A Puritan Christmas Quote

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Isn't that just observing it in reverse?

"Observing" a day typically means setting it apart for the purpose intended. The Puritans inveighed against the day, which is to say that they grieved for the idolatry of it; they did not "observe" it in the sense that is usually meant by that word, but acknowledged it as a day to be lamented for what others did, and on their part, prayed against the impious setting apart of the day, while they strove to treat it as a day like any other.
 
Right, but if you mourn on that day, because others are merry, while you are not using that day for its intended purpose, it isn't exactly being treated like any other. To make a point of mourning on that day, seems more contrarian than indifferent.
 
I thought Christmas represents the birth of the Messiah, which I thought was a good thing. :confused:

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H. L. Mencken on Puritanism, "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
 
I thought Christmas represents the birth of the Messiah, which I thought was a good thing. :confused:

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H. L. Mencken on Puritanism, "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."

Christ mass was started by the Roman Church in an effort to replace the pagan holidays. Considering all that occurred at Christmas during the Puritan times, and occurs in our own time, they were right to ban it.
 
Right, but if you mourn on that day, because others are merry, while you are not using that day for its intended purpose, it isn't exactly being treated like any other. To make a point of mourning on that day, seems more contrarian than indifferent.

The Puritans did not mourn Christmas "because others are merry." They mourned that evil was done on that day in the name of observing Christ's nativity, or rather, that Christ's nativity was observed without commandment from Christ to do so. That is an appropriate response to evil, even though their efforts were aimed at treating the day like any other. To be indifferent to evil was not their goal; one can be contrarian to evil uses of the day, and grieve over them, while at the same time, affirming in word and deed that it is, and ought to be, a day like any other. There is no true conflict between mourning evil that occurs on a particular day and striving to treat it as a regular day.
 
So it was a cultural thing, is it still applicable?

The Puritans did not mourn Christmas "because others are merry." They mourned that evil was done on that day in the name of observing Christ's nativity, or rather, that Christ's nativity was observed without commandment from Christ to do so. That is an appropriate response to evil, even though their efforts were aimed at treating the day like any other. To be indifferent to evil was not their goal; one can be contrarian to evil uses of the day, and grieve over them, while at the same time, affirming in word and deed that it is, and ought to be, a day like any other. There is no true conflict between mourning evil that occurs on a particular day and striving to treat it as a regular day.

The bolded underlined portion explains why it is not cultural.

Though assuming it was a cultural ban for the sake of riotousness, drunkenness, debauchery, lasciviousness, fornication, etc. What difference is there between the celebration of the popish mass of Christ during the Puritan era, and the celebration of the popish mass of Christ today? Those acts which typified the mass during Puritan times typify it today.
 
I can accept that explanation in general, but the statement originally quoted doesn't sound entirely like the explanation.
 
The importance of specificity

I can accept that explanation in general, but the statement originally quoted doesn't sound entirely like the explanation.

On once being told by "a gentleman", "Mr. Rogers, I like you and your company very well, only you are too precise." "Oh sir," replied Rogers, "I serve a precise God."

You just reminded me how important specificity is in such discussions.

mr_rogers.gif
 
I can accept that explanation in general, but the statement originally quoted doesn't sound entirely like the explanation.

I think that my explanation is consistent with what Prynne said. He was not advocating some new holiday observance, based on Mencken-style Puritanism, like Festivus, with its "airing of grievances," but rather lamenting the evil done at this time of year, when it ought to be a day like any other.
 
George Gillespie
(1613-1648)
The Popish Ceremonies (including Holy Days) are proved to be Idolatrous Because they are badges of Present Idolatry.


The following quote is take fromGillespie's A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies Obtruded on the Church of Scotland, published in 1637 when he was 24. Gillespie later served as a Scottish commissioner to the Westminster Assembly.

EPC 3.3, 181-197. That The Ceremonies Are Unlawful, Because They Sort Us With Idolaters, Being The Badges Of Present Idolatry Among The Papists.

Sect. 1
It follows according to the order which I have proposed, to show next that the ceremonies are idolatrous, participative. By communicating with idolaters in their rites and ceremonies, we ourselves become guilty of idolatry; even as Ahaz (2 Kings 16:10), was an idolater, eo ipso [for that very reason], that he took the pattern of an altar from idolators. Forasmuch, then, as kneeling before the consecrated bread, the sign of the cross, surplice, festival days, bishopping, bowing down to the altar, administration of the sacraments in private places, etc., are the wares of Rome, the baggage of Babylon, the trinkets of the whore, the badges of Popery, the ensigns of Christ's enemies, and the very trophies of Antichrist: we cannot conform, communicate and symbolize with the idolatrous Papists in the use of the same, without making ourselves idolaters by participation.

Shall the chaste spouse of Christ take upon her the ornaments of the whore? Shall the Israel of God symbolize with her who is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt? Shall the Lord's redeemed people wear the ensigns of their captivity? Shall the saints be seen with the mark of the beast? Shall the Christian church be like the Antichristian, the holy like the profane, religion like superstition, the temple of God like the synagogue of Satan? Our opposites are so far from being moved with these things, that both in pulpits and private places they used to plead for the ceremonies by this very argument, that we should not run so far away from Papists, but come as near them as we can. But for proof of that which we say, namely, that it is not lawful to symbolize with idolaters (and by consequence with Papists), or to be like them in their rites or ceremonies, we have more to allege than they can answer.

http://www.naphtali.com/GGhodays6.htm

English Popish Ceremonies, Extracts

George Gillespie - Puritan Favorites
 
Though assuming it was a cultural ban for the sake of riotousness, drunkenness, debauchery, lasciviousness, fornication, etc. What difference is there between the celebration of the popish mass of Christ during the Puritan era, and the celebration of the popish mass of Christ today? Those acts which typified the mass during Puritan times typify it today.

I don't know of anyone who celebrates Christmas in this manner, not even my atheist, immoral god hating co workers.

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I would say if there is any sin at Christmas it is that it has become commercialized, not that it is a day to practice debauchery. This is why so many are trying to put Christ back into Christmas, like it was at the turn of the century not in the days of the reformation.
 
Though assuming it was a cultural ban for the sake of riotousness, drunkenness, debauchery, lasciviousness, fornication, etc. What difference is there between the celebration of the popish mass of Christ during the Puritan era, and the celebration of the popish mass of Christ today? Those acts which typified the mass during Puritan times typify it today.

I don't know of anyone who celebrates Christmas in this manner, not even my atheist, immoral god hating co workers.

They don't go out drinking on Christmas Eve and then spend Christmas day recovering and in gluttony? Up here it's all the rage. Parties at various bars and even some Christmas day parties. Smart people don't drive on the roads after 5PM Christmas Eve. Lots of drunk drivers arrested. And then of course there are the various December Christmas parties which have great booze bars. Lots of skimpy outfits as well. And then there is all the Christmas Eve shopping. If you want beer you buy it the week before Christmas. Liquor stores will be full today.
 
Isn't that just observing it in reverse?

"Observing" a day typically means setting it apart for the purpose intended. The Puritans inveighed against the day, which is to say that they grieved for the idolatry of it; they did not "observe" it in the sense that is usually meant by that word, but acknowledged it as a day to be lamented for what others did, and on their part, prayed against the impious setting apart of the day, while they strove to treat it as a day like any other.

That's funny, since Paul specifically said not to look down upon those who set one day above another.

:think:
 
Isn't that just observing it in reverse?

"Observing" a day typically means setting it apart for the purpose intended. The Puritans inveighed against the day, which is to say that they grieved for the idolatry of it; they did not "observe" it in the sense that is usually meant by that word, but acknowledged it as a day to be lamented for what others did, and on their part, prayed against the impious setting apart of the day, while they strove to treat it as a day like any other.

That's funny, since Paul specifically said not to look down upon those who set one day above another.

:think:

Col. 2.16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is meant to encourage believers against the Judaizers who believed that Jewish ceremonial days should be observed. Paul is saying here, "Don't let the judgment of Judaizers for not observing their holy days be binding on you." In the same passage (v. 22) Paul inveighs against "will worship," which is worship practices which are not commanded, and therefore are forbidden.

This is consistent with Paul's teaching against the Judaizers in Gal. 4.10-11: "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Here Paul warns against following the Judaizers and making distinctions of days. These are the Jewish ceremonial days that he warns against keeping; how much more dangerous is it to keep man-made holy days that never had any warrant from Scripture. We are set free from the yoke of ceremonial observance of days and ought to return to them.

Compare also with Romans 14.5-6a: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." Again, this has to do with Jewish ceremonial observances which were tolerated for a time in the early Church for conscience sake, not man-made holy days which had not been invented or observed when Paul wrote this letter.

If it seems that Paul treats the Romans and the Colossians more gently than the Galatians, John Evans explains why this is so:

The Romans did it out of weakness, the Galatians did it out of wilfulness and wickedness; and therefore the apostle handles them thus differently. This epistle is supposed to have been written some time before that to the Galatians. The apostle seems willing to let the ceremonial law wither by degrees, and to let it have an honourable burial; now these weak Romans seem to be only following it weeping to its grave, but those Galatians were raking it out of its ashes.
 
Andrew,

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the verses, and think that they are applicable to the individuals' recognition of holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Based on the issues he includes in his list, I think his argument is broader than the observance of Jewish rites. :handshake:
 
I won't be mourning Christmas tomorrow any more than I'll be mourning that some people are eating meat sacrificed to idols.
 
That's funny, since Paul specifically said not to look down upon those who set one day above another.

:think:

David, he is talking about Jews who are still transitioning to the fact that all of their ceremonial feasts, new moons, etc are fulfilled in Christ. Some of them still celebrated them or couldn't help holding them in esteem after doing so their whole lives.

Paul later tells us that they are fulfilled in Christ, they are the shadow, he is the substance, the reality. And he admonishes them to realize this lest he has labored in vain.

Colossians 2
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Galations 4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


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Oops.
blushing.gif
Other people were faster than me.
 
Augusta,

According to your interpretation of Colossians 2, it would seem that Paul is contradicting himself in Galatians. As I mentioned above (#22), I disagree with the interpretation that Paul is referring only to Jewish custom. Rather, the proximate example of the Jewish problem provides opportunity to give a general precept.
 
David, comparing scripture with scripture, I think it is pretty clear what Paul is talking about in Col. He does go to mention some other things but feasts, new moons, and sabbaths, being the Jews regular ceremonial days, is clear.

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



1 Chronicles 23:31
And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD

2 Chronicles 2:4
Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

2 Chronicles 8:13
Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

Nehemiah 10:33
For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

Ezekiel 45:17
And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
 
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I think the arguments about the way Christmas is celebrated (Calling it Idolatrous, Romish, etc.) don't really matter, b/c I can say, I do not celebrate it in that way. I think what we need to determine is, is there a way that can be acceptable to celebrate Christmas?

If there is a way, we should do it that way, if we choose to celebrate, but if there's no way to celebrate Christmas in a way that pleases God, then we don't need to name our manner of doing it as a defense against it.

There are some who say treat Dec. 25th like any other day. I am treating it like any other fourth Thursday in November, or Fourth day of July, or Sixth day of May (my birthday).

I believe that it is permissible to treat some days as celebration days, and since I do believe that, I do not think the Dec. 25 is inherently NOT one of those days, regardless of Rome or Pagans.
 
David, comparing scripture with scripture, I think it is pretty clear what Paul is talking about in Col. He does go to mention some other things but feasts, new moons, and sabbaths, being the Jews regular ceremonial days, is clear.

I see what you're saying. In my previous post I was wondering how you account for Paul's difference in tone. In Colossians he forbids them to let anyone pass judgment on their observance, but in Galatians he seems much more pessimistic. How do you interpret this?

And while I agree with you that Paul is clearly including Jewish observance in his list, I am merely saying that I don't see the argument as limited to that.
 
Spurgeon on Christmas:

Now a happy Christmas to you all; and it will be a happy Christmas if you have God with you. I shall say nothing to day against festivities on this great birthday of Christ. We will to-morrow think of Christ's birthday; we shall be obliged to do it, I am sure, however sturdily we may hold to our rough Puritanism. And so, 'let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavend bread of sincerity and truth.' Do not feast as if you wished to keep the festival of Bacchus; do not live to-morrow as if you adored some heathen divinity. Feast, Christians, feast; you have a right to feast. Go to the house of feasting to-morrow, celebrate your Saviour's birth; do not be ashamed to be glad; you have a right to be happy. Solomon says, "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment."

"Religion never was designed
To make your pleasures less."

Recollect that your Master ate butter and honey. Go your way, rejoice tomorrow, but in your feasting, think of the Man in Bethlehem; let him have a place in your hearts, give him the glory, think of the virgin who conceived him, but think most of all of the Man born, the Child given. I finish by again saying, ---

"A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL"
 
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