A question about Sabbath

Which of these 2 views of Sabbath do you hold to?

  • Continental View

    Votes: 46 45.5%
  • Puritan View

    Votes: 55 54.5%

  • Total voters
    101
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Under the Puritan view, may a husband and wife have sex on the Sabbath?

(and that's a serious question, as silly or awkward as it may sound)
 
8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. ESV

I personally believe it is difficult to honour God by watching football or going to see a movie, but that is just me and my family.
 
Maybe I'm too libertine in this regard (I'm open to criticism in this area) having not been steeped in Reformed tradition as much as y'all.

I love NFL football (I mean, I LOVE NFL football). With my DVR I will record the three or four games I get during a given week and watch them at my leisure. I will make time to watch the Bears game on Sunday even though it's not live. I will not skip church to watch a game, nor will I skip Sunday evening service to watch the game; but I will watch the game. I'm not reading Edwards, nor am I memorizing the WCF. Maybe according to some I am breaking the Sabbath. However, I keep hearing the words of Jesus in my head regarding this...

And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

This, of course, was in response to the legalism of the Pharisees surrounding the Sabbath observation.

Again, I will admit up front, maybe I need to be doing more, but I still sense a bit of extremism on on the other side.

Just my :2cents:
 
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This, of course, was in response to the legalism of the Pharisees surrounding the Sabbath observation.

Again, I will admit up front, maybe I need to be doing more, but I still sense a bit of extremism on on the other side.

Just my :2cents:

The Westminster position cannot be equated with the pharisaic position as we are consciously only going so far as we see scripture going. We are neither adding to the Word of God, nor in maintaining our teachings are we doing so at the expense other commands; we have not set ceremony above the "weightier matters;" &c. Scrupulosity is not in any way equivalent to Pharisaic teaching or practice. If anything can be said about the Pharisees, it is that their zeal for the law and obedience thereunto was certainly commendable; their motivations, results and the ramifications of this zeal, however, along with their retaining some portions while discarding others through their traditions, is rightly condemned.
 
Mr. Gobelman,

It would behoove you to stop throwing around the pharisee/legalist accusations. It would also behoove you to read the Confessions which are the standards of this board. You are not welcome to advocate things contra the confessions. You are certainly not welcome to cast off centuries of Reformed Theologians and, well, Paul, the Apostles, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. as being legalistic. Respectfully, if your :2cents: are contra the Confession, please keep them to yourself.

I have read the confessions, and I have not accused anybody of anything. If you read my posts (including the one you purged) you will see I am NOT advocating anything "contra to the Confession." I am merely commenting and questioning on what others have posted.

I have not come out against the Sabbath, but am only how one observes the Sabbath; there is a distinction between the two.

I have also admitted up front that I am willing to be taught in this area. It would appear that you wish to accuse me of something I am not doing.

My main question is how do you or anyone else reconcile the differences between individual Sabbath observance with passages such as Colossians 2 and Romans 14?

Your exhortation ("the directing of all thoughts, conversation, and actions toward God and His majesty") is good advice for any day of the week. Why relegate that only to Sunday?

Respectfully, etc. etc.
 
Mr. Gobelman,

Whether you think so or not, you are advocating things against the Confessional understanding of what it is to keep the Sabbath. Football game watching is a recreation. You don't have to agree with it, but its advocacy will not be welcome here. Further, you have thrown accusations of Phariseeism and legalism for those who believe the Confessional understanding of the Sabbath.

Perhaps it is a good thing I dont much care to watch the NFL...glad the NCAA plays on saturdays.
 
Carl,

We have all learned more about what Scripture says about the Fourth Commandment here on Puritan Board.

Some of us were blessed to have had grandfathers who, somehow understood this and tried to live it out before their grandchildren.

I realize your point is one many might say- the idea that it is somehow "Pharisee-like" to represent the Fourth Commandment.

But the Fourth Commandment is a moral, perpetual commandment upon all God's creatures, one that God observed even at Creation as example to us.

Here's what I think "legalism" or "Pharisee" behavior is:

1) adding commandments of men to bind men's consciences that are NOT in Scripture
2) seeking to justify oneself (in the sense of justification for salvation) by any pretense of perfectly obeying God
3) wrong, man made interpretations of law given by God

In the end, the Fourth Commandment is summarized by our Confession to require 3 main practical things for our life:

1) advance preparation
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation

This so that one might "cease" from those ordinary activities of the rest of the week and prioritize the worship of God all the day.

None of these are of that sort. They may be inconvient, the may be hard to accept that God makes such claim on His creatures, but there is nothing "added to" in them basically, only our own insistence as sinners to rationalize ways to not obey. :)

One other thing I have found helpful in understanding this- one can never really get a hold of this until they see the Fourth Commandment as a tremendous gift of God- a rest which is a taste, only a taste of the heavenly rest, something to look forward to, a DELIGHT.
 
Just as a reminder for those who haven't seen it yet, I'll repost this quote by Terry Johnson (found here):

Years ago Hughes Old said of those who were claiming the “continental” view of the Sabbath over against that of the Confession, that they must mean the “continental Catholic” view, allowing no disjunction between the Reformed in Britain and those in Europe proper.

Sproul is a godly and honorable man, but he is wrong on this, and I've seen him publicly corrected on this issue before (by Derek Thomas).
 
'Phariseeism' is the belief that one can make himself more or less righteous by which rules he chooses to follow or not follow. I challenge anyone to find a Puritan who even hinted at the possibility that one could be more righteous by avoiding recreation on the Sabbath.

The point that is being made with the words of Jesus, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath," points out that keeping the Sabbath is a loving gift to man, not to make him more righteous, but to help him meet his chief end of glorifying God and enjoying Him forever.
 
Mr. Gobelman,

Whether you think so or not, you are advocating things against the Confessional understanding of what it is to keep the Sabbath. Football game watching is a recreation. You don't have to agree with it, but its advocacy will not be welcome here. Further, you have thrown accusations of Phariseeism and legalism for those who believe the Confessional understanding of the Sabbath.

For me to say "I like to watch football on Sunday," is not advocating others to do the same (no matter how much you may think it is). To advocate a position would be to argue for its acceptance. If you can show me where I have argued for the acceptance of others in the watching of football on Sunday, I will publicly repent and seek your forgiveness.

I am trying to understand how one reconciles this interpretation of the confession with Romans 14 and Colossians 2 (this is an honest question and not meant to be confrontational).
 
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In Carl's defense, because I too have come from an unreformed background, I know how hard it can be to accept certain things in the confessions in the way they are intended, (thats not to say that I don't accept them now). In non reformed circles the "legalism" tag gets put on anything that seems remotely like following rules, and I think this mentality can be hard to shake off when you are newly reformed. Personally I don't approve of doing stuff like watching sports on a Sunday, but I didn't come to this view overnight.

However I respect the fact that on a reformed board people must never promote unreformed practice, thats what makes this board worth coming to, because it is so full of sound advice and teaching. Sometimes its just a bit of a big leap for some people, thats all :) We're all willing to learn!
 
Under the Puritan view, may a husband and wife have sex on the Sabbath?

Yes. "Not Laboring" does not mean "No Physical Exertion".

I wasn't asking on the basis of physical exertion, but on recreation.

If we are to abstain from recreation on the Sabbath, does that mean that sex on that day is sinful?

Maybe I am being dense but how is sex "recreation" in the same way Baseball or Football is "recreation"?
 
Maybe I am being dense but how is sex "recreation" in the same way Baseball or Football is "recreation"?

The Confession doesn't speak to sports, only recreation. There is a lot that has nothing to do with sports that would fall under "recreation". I've heard many on the PB argue against recreation because the day is not for man's enjoyment. Many have also said (similar to the WCF) that all of our thoughts and conversations need to be on the things of God.

I just don't see how sex fits into that.
 
Folks, I think a little common sense would go a long way in this issue: if you just had a really busy week, and you came home and told your wife, "I just want to take a day off without doing any work;" there isn't really much ambiguity as to what you mean. Of course, daily life requires by necessity some form of exertion or physical acts and labor. However, one day in seven is to be set apart from our normal, worldly works and entertainments. We don't go to work; we don't have this as a day for doing housework; or shopping; or watching the game; or mowing the lawn, playing tennis with our friends or running errands. Instead, we attend the public assemblies and to our private and familial acts of piety, and so celebrate our rest in the Lord as we look forward to our great, eternal rest in glory. Yes, of course not every minute of the day is going to focused consciously upon Public and private worship. Of course not. But this is not the point. It is a day set apart for these things. It seems we try overly hard sometimes to figure out what is and is not allowed, or what constitutes work or entertainments, etc. Really, it mostly just takes plain sense.

Carl,

With respect to Col. 2 and Romans 14: the immediate association of "sabbaths" in Col. with the new moon fests, etc., shows that we are talking about something specifically Judaical and ceremonial -- not moral. In Romans 14, the close association with eating or not eating meats shows, again, that we're not talking about moral duties, but weak believers with certain superstitions or weakness of conscience regarding a day. It does not speak, however, against the moral duty of observing the creation-ordained Sabbath, which has even greater meaning with the advent of Christ.
 
Alistair Begg did a really good job of preaching on this subject. Part two of the message is available for free at the Truth for Life website. I don't know what happened to part one, but I'm sure if you asked, they'd let you download it for free.

Resource - Truth for Life
 
Maybe I am being dense but how is sex "recreation" in the same way Baseball or Football is "recreation"?

The Confession doesn't speak to sports, only recreation. There is a lot that has nothing to do with sports that would fall under "recreation". I've heard many on the PB argue against recreation because the day is not for man's enjoyment. Many have also said (similar to the WCF) that all of our thoughts and conversations need to be on the things of God.

I just don't see how sex fits into that.

The confession has directly in mind when mentioning "recreation" the so-called "Book of Sports". Just because the Football League was not formed till 1878 does not mean recreation and "Sports" are separate things.

If having sex on the Sabbath causes you to sin then refrain from it.
 
Some of us were blessed to have had grandfathers who, somehow understood this and tried to live it out before their grandchildren.

Had one. It was awesome to watch in practice. He once pitched a game (dice or cards, I don't recall) that my aunt and her friend were playing into the fireplace as he would not have gaming in his house. He was Old School and lived it every minute. :up:

I still remember my grandmother telling my uncle (talking about work that week at after-church coffee at their place) "Mei net sizze - net op Zondag!!" (Approximately: Don't talk like that, not on Sunday!)
 
The Lord's Day is for worship, rest, fellowship, and works of necessity and mercy. So then, our thoughts, words, and deeds are to be directed towards these things.

One questions I have is "What things are appropriate for fellowship?" Can we kick a soccer ball leisurely with one another? Can we discuss the weather at church? Are we pursuing our own pleasures? Or are we building up the church by fellowshipping with one another? Or may we only fellowship with one another by speaking of the things of God? This thread is very interesting.
 
Resting from physical work is ineffectual if you haven't first found rest in Christ from your works and wickedness. Salvation gives us this rest unendingly, and the Sabbath points us to this. We have died to ourselves and walk in newness of life towards God: By his grace we are given the nature to apprehend the pleasure found in him and the ability to practice the first commandment unceasingly: We do our pleasure on the Lord's Day the same as on every other day of the week.

Is there a blessing in resting from our physical labor on the seventh day? Absolutely. Is this the entire scope of the Sabbath (and the blessings and cursings regarding it)? Certainly not.
 
Under the Puritan view, may a husband and wife have sex on the Sabbath?

(and that's a serious question, as silly or awkward as it may sound)

It might sound as if someone said "Yes, sexual relations on the Sabbath is acceptable" then you might come right back and use that to justify all sorts of other things.

I think that is something for you and your wife to think about before God and an open bible. Conjugal relations are a special form of fellowship between you and your wife.

Certainly if it was keeping you from other Sabbath tasks like going to church it would be distracting you from even more important things. :2cents:
 
Good questions, good observations.

The Lord's Day is for worship, rest, fellowship, and works of necessity and mercy. So then, our thoughts, words, and deeds are to be directed towards these things.

You summarize the Confessions' summary of the doctrine of Scripture well.

One questions I have is "What things are appropriate for fellowship?" Can we kick a soccer ball leisurely with one another?
Abstaining from recreation- thinking about it, talking about it, as well as doing it is part of the confessional summary.

(taking a break from the pursuit of entertaining, recreating or amusing ourselves is part of keeping the sabbath day holy- this is particularly difficult in this generation that is consumed with entertaining and amusing itself, without ceasing):)


Can we discuss the weather at church?
The only way I would know to explain this is incidentally, yes, as long as doing so does not dominate or interfere with the focus of the day.
Are we pursuing our own pleasures? Or are we building up the church by fellowshipping with one another?
Yes, your presence on Lord's Day worship is an encouragement in the faith to others, just by being there. I think this is a necessary incident of corporate worship.

Or may we only fellowship with one another by speaking of the things of God?
Look to directing thoughts, words and deeds toward that... but you have to hear people's problems before you can pray for them or try to help them with mercy, for example.
This thread is very interesting.
 
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It might sound as if someone said "Yes, sexual relations on the Sabbath is acceptable" then you might come right back and use that to justify all sorts of other things.

I think that is something for you and your wife to think about before God and an open bible. Conjugal relations are a special form of fellowship between you and your wife.

For clarification, I take exception to the Confession's statement of abstaining from recreation, so I don't personally think there's anything wrong with sex on the Sabbath. I'm just looking for clarification from those who strictly hold to the Confession in this regard.
 
I'm just looking for clarification from those who strictly hold to the Confession in this regard.

Not exactly. In your previous post (which has been deleted) you specifically state that recreation on the Sabbath is not sin. If you are truly "just looking for clarification" then ask questions without promoting your unconfessional views.
 
You know what's interesting here is that we're not talking much about calling the Sabbath a delight. If somebody told me that I could have one day a week to work on resurrecting and modifying one of the many dead motorcycles in my yard, and told me that I would not be interrupted at it unless it was really important, I would rejoice.

If someone told me to have a nice evening out with my wife, and I spent our time at dinner looking over her head at the football game on TV, my wife would rightly conclude that time with her didn't mean too much to me.

The Christian sabbath is a gift. It's God saying, "Come away with me for a little while."

The subtext that seems to be dominating much of this conversation is "What can I get away with doing?" I want to suggest that subtext is 100% wrong. If we truly believe what the Psalmist says, "Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you." (Ps 73:25) then we wouldn't spend so much time trying to figure out boundaries of what we can and can't do. We would instinctively know that some things distract us from the Lord, some things are neutral, and some things enhance our Godward motions. We would avoid the former whenever possible, make wise use of the middle option, and spend the bulk of our time and energy on the latter.

The fact that we find it a burden says far more about what we truly love, and what (or who) we don't love as much as we ought.
 
With respect to Col. 2 and Romans 14: the immediate association of "sabbaths" in Col. with the new moon fests, etc., shows that we are talking about something specifically Judaical and ceremonial -- not moral. In Romans 14, the close association with eating or not eating meats shows, again, that we're not talking about moral duties, but weak believers with certain superstitions or weakness of conscience regarding a day. It does not speak, however, against the moral duty of observing the creation-ordained Sabbath, which has even greater meaning with the advent of Christ.

OK, I kind of get the response in relation to Col. 2 (I would like to research this more). However, I don't think I get the connection in regards to the Rom. 14 passage. I don't think it speaks against the observance of the Sabbath either, but in how one observes it; am I wrong in this?

At the expense of being flippant (please don't take it this way, but I'm going to be hyperbolic to make my point), suppose I want to have some family time on Sunday after worship engaged in a game of Monopoly. From what I am hearing from some folks (I am sure well-intended) is that this is not honoring to God on the Sabbath because our thoughts are not focused on Him. What I am having a hard time with, and please help me to understand, is how can having some quality time with my family not be honoring toward God? Is the idea that in advance preparation for the Sabbath I should get my family game-playing time done between Monday and Saturday?

To me, it just seems too rigid to say we have to abstain from anything and everything that takes even one iota of our focus away from God on the Sabbath; otherwise we need to confess and repent. It's almost akin to the passage from 1 Thes. 5 that we should pray without ceasing. That's an imperative, right? I know it doesn't mean we should literally be on our knees 24/7 in prayer, but is to represent an attitude and awareness of God at all times. Yet I'm sure we even fail to keep this. Are we all confessing and repenting of this sin?

(Again, please don't take my comments as disrespectful or flippant. If I appear hyperbolic, it's solely for the sake of argument, not to denigrate or belittle anyone's practice).
 
In your previous post (which has been deleted) you specifically state that recreation on the Sabbath is not sin. If you are truly "just looking for clarification" then ask questions without promoting your unconfessional views.

I was responding to this:

If having sex on the Sabbath causes you to sin then refrain from it.

If I don't believe that sex on the Sabbath causes me to sin, and I don't think throwing a frisbee causes me to sin, am I wrong on both accounts?
 
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