A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles (Moreland)

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RamistThomist

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Moreland, J. P. A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles: Instruction and Inspiration for Living Supernaturally in Christ. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2021.

This review is from the audiobook.

Even though I think his arguments are sound, I will not agree with everything he says. I need to make that disclaimer up front. The rest of his book is so strong that my argument will appear like an endorsement of his book, and to a large degree it is, but there will be points of disagreement. I disagree with Moreland on "hearing God's voice." It is not so much what he said, but what he did not say. I really have not heard anyone on either side give a coherent and persuasive distinction between "prophecy" and "words of knowledge." I do not think they are the same, but I am not sure why not.

Even for cessationists, this book should be a welcome read. Moreland clarifies what we mean and do not mean by “miracle.” Moreover, it should be a challenging foil for those who say that God does not do miracles today. Perhaps he does not, but a critic better be able to analytically interact with the leading figures from the other side (e.g., Michael Brown, Craig Keener, and Moreland). No longer can one attack the Benny Hinns of the world. This is a much stronger challenge. Furthermore, regardless of what one thinks of God answering certain types of prayer requests, Moreland gives some gentle advice on persevering in prayer and the like.

Moreland defines a miracle along the lines of “an event caused by God or a supernatural being outside the law-governed course of nature.” Such a definition brings him to challenge the hegemony of David Hume and his disciples today. Simply put, a supernatural act does not require an overwhelming support of evidence. Nor does all evidence need to be scientifically testable. Disciplines such as forensic science do not even operate on such principles.

But that raises another question: how do we really know x is a miracle and not just a normal event? This is the single most important contribution Moreland makes. For example, let us pretend I get the flu. I ask God for healing and relief. A few days later, I am feeling better. Did God answer my prayer or was this just the nature of the case? Or both? We really cannot know for certain.

Intelligent Agent Principle

To answer this question, Moreland adopts “The Intelligent Agent Principle.” A miracle must meet several criteria:
  1. It has to be improbable by the nature of the case (at least <50%).
  2. It must be independent and have specificity.
In other words, there must be
  1. An intelligent agent involved.

Does this criteria prove miracles exist? Of course not. It simply delineates, with varying degrees of certainty, between natural providences and supernatural actions. Moreover, and this is a valid epistemological point across the board, one can have legitimate knowledge with varying degrees of certainty. Let us say that I only have 75% certainty that x is a miracle. That counts as legitimate knowledge. I might not bet the house on it, but in terms of practical, day-to-day living it is knowledge.

Church History

Moreland neither claims that the entire church always believed miracles continued, nor does he claim that they were Macarthurite cessationists. He actually goes to the evidence. The best is Augustine, since Augustine was a cessationist for much of his life. He then started investigating miracle stories in his diocese. This was not a man who wanted to be convinced, since he actually rejected the idea. Rather, like a good searcher of truth, he followed the evidence. You can read about it in City of God 22.8. It reads like the headlines from Charisma News. Similar, though less documented, claims can be found in Irenaeus.

Praying for Healing

This chapter is not so much on how to heal people (since only God can do that), but on how to be a blessing to people who are suffering. It gives gentle, yet specific suggestions on when you are praying for someone. But what if God does not heal them (or less spectacularly, does not answer my prayer)? The simple answer is “I don’t know.” Why could not Paul, a man who had raised the dead, heal Trophimus?

God might not answer prayer for several reasons:
  1. He might delay answering your prayer because he wants you to get others involved. God is teaching you the connection between prayer and partnership with him. That in itself is a good. If God teaches you to get more people involved and they learn that connection, then more “goods” have been created.
  2. Let’s say you want a job. Your prospective employer initially does not want to hire you. Other things being equal, should God coerce his will that he hire you? What if the employer simultaneously prayed that God would make you stop asking for this job? Should God listen to his prayer and coerce your will? Of course not. The point in this thought experiment is to get us thinking about how specific we are in prayer and what we really want in prayer.
  3. Do you even know what you are asking? This is not simply a cliche. Many times we are not specific in prayer. If God answered your prayer, you might not even know since you did not specifically ask for anything. How many prayers have you heard end with “lead, guide, and direct us”? If God answered that prayer, what criteria could you possibly use to verify it.
  4. In short, we might not know why God does not answer prayer.

Angels, Demons, and the Like

They exist. They are real. There are two dangers: one in seeing angels and demons everywhere, the other in a deistic overreaction. I have written enough elsewhere on angels and demons, so I do not need to belabor the point here.

Conclusion

For what it is worth, this book helped me to grow in holiness. I do not want to be the type of person who is crippled by unrepentant sin. I do not want that to get in the way of any partnership with God. This book might be Moreland’s swan song. We hope not, but we are glad he was able to write it.
 
I'm assuming Moreland would have also mentioned this under church history, but to me Irenaeus - who has a reputation of being a straight-shooter rather than engaging in the hagiographical tendencies of many ECFs - had probably the most striking things to say in this area.

Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others] (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4).​
Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5).​
In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms ‘spiritual,’ they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit. (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1).​
 
I'm assuming Moreland would have also mentioned this under church history, but to me Irenaeus - who has a reputation of being a straight-shooter rather than engaging in the hagiographical tendencies of many ECFs - had probably the most striking things to say in this area.

Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others] (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4).​
Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5).​
In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms ‘spiritual,’ they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit. (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1).​

He does. I didn't mention it because that passage has been debated on here before, whereas the Augustine passage is fairly open-and-shut.
 
While his discussion of healing is intersting, does he deal with healing of things like blindness, missing limbs, true cripples, etc?

I ask because the wonders in the NT where Christ and the Apostles caused blind men to see and deaf to hear or the lame to walk would have required whole muslces or organ groups to form instantaneiously.

It's not that I doubt that God can do these things but the claims by those who document healing never provide evidence of these kinds of ehalings. It leads to the question that if we're supposed to be praying for healings of things like cancer why wouldn't we regularly ask for prayer if we were missing eyes or a leg or confined to a wheelchair (e.g. Joi Ericksen Tada)?

The Unbelievable podcast has featured some folks recently that do a pretty good job of trying to document these but they don't really ever provide the kind of proof like Christ and the Apostles were able to provide where everyone knew someone had been blind since birth or ciippled with shriveled legs.

Why, if the gift of healing hasn't ceased, don't we see people with this gift if it is to be expected? Does Moreland offer advice to cripples about whether they ought to regularly pray that God answers a prayer that they are able to walk or that someone who has the same gift of healing (that didn't cease with the Apostles) would heal them.
 
While his discussion of healing is intersting, does he deal with healing of things like blindness, missing limbs, true cripples, etc?
Yes. Specifically blindness and cripples. Not sure about missing limbs.
I ask because the wonders in the NT where Christ and the Apostles caused blind men to see and deaf to hear or the lame to walk would have required whole muslces or organ groups to form instantaneiously.
That is not strictly true. Christ had to do a double healing because a blind man started seeing trees walking.
It's not that I doubt that God can do these things but the claims by those who document healing never provide evidence of these kinds of ehalings. It leads to the question that if we're supposed to be praying for healings of things like cancer why wouldn't we regularly ask for prayer if we were missing eyes or a leg or confined to a wheelchair (e.g. Joi Ericksen Tada)?

Craig Keener provides documentation in his works on miracles. I listened to it on audio some while back. I *think* saved a hard copy on my parents' computer to where I could verify it, but I don't know if it is still there.
Why, if the gift of healing hasn't ceased, don't we see people with this gift if it is to be expected?

I dispute that people don't see those with the gift. If people began with the assumption that the gift probably does not happen, and then they don't look for evidence of it and read the best texts on it, then they probably won't see those with the gift.
Does Moreland offer advice to cripples about whether they ought to regularly pray that God answers a prayer that they are able to walk or that someone who has the same gift of healing (that didn't cease with the Apostles) would heal them.
Yes
 
I make a distinction between the act and the interpretation of the act.
I see. What about when the woman has a dream to ask someone to make a sign of the cross over her cancer and it works and she is healed?

In this instance, it seems to be that the superstition caused the miracle, similar to the dirt. Even more shocking was Augustine’s comment that he and another approved of the dirt thing (at least I think it was that miracle, but I don’t have the book in front of me). Really the dirt was the most shocking:doh:

These seem different from the second miracle about the fistula, which simply seemed to be an extraordinary answer to prayer.
 
I dispute that people don't see those with the gift. If people began with the assumption that the gift probably does not happen, and then they don't look for evidence of it and read the best texts on it, then they probably won't see those with the gift.
Can you clarify to me whether you believe the gift of healing that the Spirit gave to persons at the time of the Apostles is being given to specific persons today?
 
Craig Keener provides documentation in his works on miracles. I listened to it on audio some while back. I *think* saved a hard copy on my parents' computer to where I could verify it, but I don't know if it is still there.
By the way, if you haven't seen (or listened to this), they are worth the time:


I had this in mind when I stated that I know there are those that provide some proof but I didn't see him providing evidence similar to what it seems like happened in the NT.

By the way, I find it really strange that you would throw in that somehow Christ had to do somethng twice. What do you thik that establishes exactly?
 
By the way, I find it really strange that you would throw in that somehow Christ had to do somethng twice. What do you thik that establishes exactly?
Mark 8.

23 He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”

24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”

25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
 
I see. What about when the woman has a dream to ask someone to make a sign of the cross over her cancer and it works and she is healed?

In this instance, it seems to be that the superstition caused the miracle, similar to the dirt. Even more shocking was Augustine’s comment that he and another approved of the dirt thing (at least I think it was that miracle, but I don’t have the book in front of me). Really the dirt was the most shocking:doh:

These seem different from the second miracle about the fistula, which simply seemed to be an extraordinary answer to prayer.
Ultimately, God is the one healing, not the "superstition." As to why God healed when a superstition was present, I don't know.
 
Mark 8.

23 He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”

24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”

25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
Yes, I know the passage. When you mentioned it, I knew what you were talking about, but what is the import?
 
Yes, I know the passage. When you mentioned it, I knew what you were talking about, but what is the import?
The healing wasn't instantaneous. It was in stages. Granted, most apostolic healings were instantaneous, but not all. In other words, instantaneous isn't a property per se of apostolic healings.
 
The healing wasn't instantaneous. It was in stages. Granted, most apostolic healings were instantaneous, but not all. In other words, instantaneous isn't a property per se of apostolic healings.
I would say restoring eyesight over the course of day is near enough instantaneous as makes no difference; in that case one gets the feeling it was within minutes.
 
The healing wasn't instantaneous. It was in stages. Granted, most apostolic healings were instantaneous, but not all. In other words, instantaneous isn't a property per se of apostolic healings.
Again, it's not clar what import that has to the concersation. Is it to point out that the way Christ healed was imperfect at times? Was it that He prayed for healing and it wasn't granted? How does this relate to the issue of the nature of healing?

I would also add that that "why" the healing occurs in two stages is an interesting issue. It's not that "most" ehalings int he NT or OT were instantaneous but *all* of them were. Why this is recorded is not purely historical but there is some theological importance to it.
 
Again, it's not clar what import that has to the concersation. Is it to point out that the way Christ healed was imperfect at times? Was it that He prayed for healing and it wasn't granted? How does this relate to the issue of the nature of healing?

Granted, I have nothing major riding on instantaneous healings. My point is that Jesus had to do it twice.
I would also add that that "why" the healing occurs in two stages is an interesting issue. It's not that "most" ehalings int he NT or OT were instantaneous but *all* of them were. Why this is recorded is not purely historical but there is some theological importance to it.

Whether all of them, perhaps excepting Mark 8, were instantaneous or not is not my major point. Let's say, and Keener documents these cases, that a person gets prayed for and 80% of the cancer is gone. Two weeks later, the rest of the cancer is gone. I can live with those results. Granted, it wasn't identical to apostolic healings, but still.
 
The funny thing for me is that when Iw as listening to Keener present his case about miraculous healing it wasn't as if I was skeptical of the reports.

It's not that I would commend Doug Wilson as a general rule for ministry but he was recently in another discussion on the Unbelievable Radio program and he said something to the effect that we live in a supernatural world. His point, which I agreed with, is that we live in a world in which spiritual forces are operative.

I pray for people when they are sick or with disease for their recovery. I don't do so with some sort of naturalistic expectation that it simply means that my prayers would mean that "random" biological processes would simply eliminate the cancer or some other disease. Even medical intervention is related to a doctor's skill given by God and he/she is using chemicals or other technquies that allow a body, created and sustained by God, to heal.

My 2nd child, Anna, turned 19 last week. She nearly died in front of me when born and I was not merely thankful to the NICU that saved her life but to God and the prayers of the Saints who were praying for her in the middle of the night on both coasts. The complete disappearance of the three strokes she suffered 7 months later were an occasion to thank God for answered prayer.

What I suppose I'm trying to balance out is how the gifts of healing oeprated in the Scriptures along with a sense of understanding what it looks like to persevere as Saints in a fallen Creation and not "expecting" the same.

A friend laughed once when my wife remarked that "nothing really happens to our family". Her friend said: "Yeah, your husband is legally blind, your son has type 1 diabetes, your daughter almost died at birth, and you have Multiple Sclerosis." My wife woke up blind in her left eye 3 years ago and recovered partial sight as MS had attacked her optical nerve.

We don't cease praying about such things nor have others ceased to pray with concern for us, but we're not in the habit of seeking some sort of "healer" for thse things either (around whom "clusters of healing" might exist).

They certainly bring suffering into our lives, but I'm very grateful for the Lord's provision.

I imiagine if I wasn't in a Reformed communion, I might be surrounded by people who think I ought to be finding someone with such a gift. In fact, I remember my charismatic days and the exercise of "spiritual gifts" was very common and central. It was exciting to think about at the time, but now I just don't really have any interest in it.

Sufferers don't need friends like Job who are broken records telling him that he sinned somehow but neither do they need counsel that a miracle may be the very thing they need from other "friends". I can't remember what was said but it was a minister dying of cancer who pointed out that it wasn't a failure of prayer or such that he wasn't healed.

The death of my Pastor's daughter really brought into sharp relief for me what it looks like for those in the thralls of this fallen creation to reckon with what Paul calls us to in terms of endurance. The hardest thing for me to endure is not my blindness but my lack of zeal for the things of the Lord on a daily basis. It's hard ot endure keeping my priorities stratght and putting sin to death within my members and being a good husband and father.

As an Elder, I don't even know what it would look like to vet a person who supposedly has the gift of "healing" and give him/her the ability to go anywhere near an elderly man in my congregation who is now in his third battle with cancer. Would that really edify him?

Again, it's not that I doubt the existence of "miraculous" things that happen in all these documented cases. If they occurred, then praise God. I just don't see the Christian life as waiting for an apostle to happen upon the crippled man when he was least expecting it and healing him. I praise God at such things but the word wasn't freed from cripples or sufferers at the time of the Apostles either.

So, if the point is that we should not doubt amazing things then I'm with him. If the point is that the Church needs to be poised for and expecting a miracle worker to show up then I think there is no such warrant. It just doesn't square with the tenor of the Epistles.
 
It's not that I would commend Doug Wilson as a general rule for ministry but he was recently in another discussion on the Unbelievable Radio program and he said something to the effect that we live in a supernatural world. His point, which I agreed with, is that we live in a world in which spiritual forces are operative.

Agreed. We must reject Hume and naturalism at all costs.
I pray for people when they are sick or with disease for their recovery. I don't do so with some sort of naturalistic expectation that it simply means that my prayers would mean that "random" biological processes would simply eliminate the cancer or some other disease. Even medical intervention is related to a doctor's skill given by God and he/she is using chemicals or other technquies that allow a body, created and sustained by God, to heal.

I don't disagree. That goes back to Moreland's Principle of Intelligent Agency on whether an act is miraculous or not. Moreland uses that principle to rule out what we might sloppily call "miracles."
What I suppose I'm trying to balance out is how the gifts of healing oeprated in the Scriptures along with a sense of understanding what it looks like to persevere as Saints in a fallen Creation and not "expecting" the same.

I get that. I'll admit I don't have a full answer to it. Even when God was healing people in the canon, many simply weren't healed.
I imiagine if I wasn't in a Reformed communion, I might be surrounded by people who think I ought to be finding someone with such a gift. In fact, I remember my charismatic days and the exercise of "spiritual gifts" was very common and central. It was exciting to think about at the time, but now I just don't really have any interest in it.

I was openly hostile to charismatics before I became Reformed. I had even been physically attacked by one. I have zero natural inclinations to charismaticism. Of Reformed people, I am the most staid and Stoic.
Sufferers don't need friends like Job who are broken records telling him that he sinned somehow but neither do they need counsel that a miracle may be the very thing they need from other "friends". I can't remember what was said but it was a minister dying of cancer who pointed out that it wasn't a failure of prayer or such that he wasn't healed.

I agree. It's not what I am advocating, but I agree with you on principle on that point.
As an Elder, I don't even know what it would look like to vet a person who supposedly has the gift of "healing" and give him/her the ability to go anywhere near an elderly man in my congregation who is now in his third battle with cancer. Would that really edify him?

Moreland addresses that.
So, if the point is that we should not doubt amazing things then I'm with him. If the point is that the Church needs to be poised for and expecting a miracle worker to show up then I think there is no such warrant. It just doesn't square with the tenor of the Epistles.

Again, I don't disagree. I don't think I advocated anything like new miracle workers rising up. For what it's worth, to the degree that it is an identifiable entity, I reject groups like the New Apostolic Reformation.

And as Moreland and Charles Kraft note in their books, there is more to "healing prayer" than simply zapping people whole.
 
I was openly hostile to charismatics before I became Reformed. I had even been physically attacked by one. I have zero natural inclinations to charismaticism. Of Reformed people, I am the most staid and Stoic.
I wouldn't say I'm openly hostile to Charismatics as much as I see most of their congregations as pitable. I don't write this in a condescending way but that I really do pity the lack of Christian formation I see in those congregations. I've jus never run across a stable (multi-generational) charismatic Church. The older I get, the more I appreciate multi-generational formation. Things can seem big and successful in the moment and they don't endure. As an example, the New Life movement of the 70's created a lot of non-denominational Churches that are now aging out and dying. There's no long-term fruit.

The closest thing I've seen to a seemingly successful attempt to blend the Reformed and the Charismatic is the Sovereign Grace thing as a movement or Acts 29. The former now has a bunch of Churches since the main Church had problems but they've had to rethink their Apostolic model and are trying to buld as they go. The latter lost Driscoll and has its own problems now.

I know we're alking about miracles as such but I guess what I'm getting at is that it's interesting to tease apart a "body part" (like healing or prophecy) but then it's important to ask where that body part is seen to be functioning within the context of a *stable* Church that has maintained fidelity across generations and isn't constantly re-inventing itself or re-consolidating after certain sections implode.

To borrow Poythress' terms, if one cannot stably define how these gifts operate discursively then all we're left with is the varying non-discursive ideas that end up getting practiced in a million different ways.
 
Granted, I have nothing major riding on instantaneous healings. My point is that Jesus had to do it twice

Or Jesus decided to do it twice (or in stages rather) for a specific theological point to his audience. Notice the stories around that one in Mark how the disciples are having trouble believing. Peter states that Jesus is the Christ in the following passage but clearly doesn't really know what that entails. Peter sees "partially" but not yet in full. His eyes need to be further opened after the resurrection.

Regarding healings, all I know is my wife should have died by age 18 from juvenile rheumatoid arthritis that she had severely when young. When little, she was in the hospital, woke up suddenly and told her grandmother that Jesus healed her. She was so young she has no memory of it but her grandmother did. Not long after, the JRE suddenly disappeared. There were people praying, but no one with a gift of healing or anything like that. The doctors didn't know what to say other than sometimes "JRE burns itself out." Well, rather than coincidence, we would like to give glory to God for an act of sudden recovery that was very, very out of the ordinary.

I am highly skeptical of people with sign gifts but have no problem whatsoever with God doing miracles today. In fact, it sounds more like pagan naturalism to me than Christian when someone denies God doing miracles today.
 
but I guess what I'm getting at is that it's interesting to tease apart a "body part" (like healing or prophecy) but then it's important to ask where that body part is seen to be functioning within the context of a *stable* Church that has maintained fidelity across generations and isn't constantly re-inventing itself or re-consolidating after certain sections implode.

I don't disagree. I don't think I am "teasing apart" a body part. But anyone who writes a legitimate book on a spiritual gift isn't "teasing" a body part.
 
I don't disagree. I don't think I am "teasing apart" a body part. But anyone who writes a legitimate book on a spiritual gift isn't "teasing" a body part.
What I meant to infer by that is that it is one thing to talk about the idea that miracles exist today and then try to argue for those who have the "gift of healing". I uese the "body part" analogy in the way Paul speaks of us as being part of the body and the point was that such a "gift" (healing) can't be described without reference to how it is shown to be operating. If we can't see it operating in multi-gernational and stable Churches then it is, to my thinking, teasing apart the idea from the whole. In part, I think this is what @Jerusalem Blade was driving at in another thread when we think about this issue. It's not that I'm unaware of the arguments. They are logically coherent (Moreland was one of my wife's professors in college by the way and is highly intelligent). It's not that I have a "blow for blow" answer to every argument about how a "healing gift" could theoretically perate, but I'm looking at the "Body as a whole" and not just a local congregation over a few years that says they are benefitting from it. I'm looking at the health of a larger, multi-generational Church that claims to have "healers" and see how they fare across generations. I just don't see healthy Bodies that can point to multi-gnerational stability.
 
but I'm looking at the "Body as a whole" and not just a local congregation over a few years that says they are benefitting from it. I'm looking at the health of a larger, multi-generational Church that claims to have "healers" and see how they fare across generations. I just don't see healthy Bodies that can point to multi-gnerational stability.

Understood. If, for the sake of hypothesis, there were any such bodies, would that change anything in the above post?
 
Understood. If, for the sake of hypothesis, there were any such bodies, would that change anything in the above post?
Yes. If we could "see" the identifiable gifts at play in a stable Church it would be helpful.

I'm trying to figure out how best to articulate this, but what I was trying to get at is that the gifts are spoken of by Paul but then he (and the other Aposltes) "move on". It's like all these gifts disapper into the background. We know what it looks like for Pator, Elder, and Diaconate gifts to include specific qualifications but these other gifts are just "there". We don't even know much about how the "prophet" group occurred in the OT, but they "fit" and there's no sense in which it seemed all that debatable whether someone was raised up from the Lord for some purpose.

That certain works existed for specific purposes in the NT like healing is non-controversial, but then, moving on, if it was a "natural gift" (meaning that it was something the Lord was giving organically to the Church it would continue to take on a life of its own and be understood. The Didache, for instance, seems to have a test for prophets but we don't know a whole lot after that in Church history because we don't read examples of that continuing.

Of course, one could argue that the ministry of the Wod and Sacrament certainly suffered for a long season, but its presence as some sort of analogy to the NT standard (along with the Diaconate) continued. Not to poison the well, but it's usually been the "weirdos" in Church history that suddenly annoint themselves with apostolic powers and the broad acceptance of the charismatic movement in the U.S. spreading to the world has a pretty hinky pedigree from the early days of Pentecostalism to the Latter Rain movement. It's not exacly the zenith of the Church's health where suddenly people are claiming regulary that tongues, healing, prophecy (even apostles) are an expected "office" in the warp and woof of the Church.

In saying all of this, I'm not disputing the existence of the miraculous or even the kinds of "prophecies" that some of the Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians would have believe in. It's just that they didn't simultaneously see those as enduring "offices" in the Church but extraordinary things that the Spirit did.

So, it's a long way of saying that I'd be interested in seeing that occur in some sort of recognized capacity in a Church that is stable and the gift was such that it fit into operation of the Body so that it was unmistakably given by Chirst not merely locally for a short season but functioned across generations.
 
By the way, I'm really frustrated by all my spelling issues. It seems I'm spelling OK but it's my vision and I don't have time to go back and edit my posts.
 
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