? about an invitation

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LadyFlynt

Puritan Board Doctor
I think I have this under the correct forum...if not, then I trust the moderators to move it.

We, as some on this board, agree with the ideals of Vision Forum and our family is listed amoung others we know on their website.

We just received an email inviting us (by someone we have known for years) to come meet with them and others whom we also know (we were unaware that they had been having meetings separate from the church). First of all, we can't due to the day that they meet and my husband's shift.

What concerned me was one of the activities they have...especially since I believe our church (several of the ppl attend our church) is possibly unaware of it.

Here are the activities...can you pick out the one?

"It is a very informal meeting including singing, teaching, communion, and prayer, and of course children are always included."

I'm tossed on this issue truely.
 
Colleen, I think your instincts are right on the money.

The solicitation sounds like they are inviting you to do a bunch of activities that properly you should get (although no doubt imperfectly) from your own church. A group of like minded families isn't a substitute or alternative for church.
 
Does your pastor know about this meeting? I would inform him of it.

Here's how to judge if what they are doing is merely fellowship or if they have ulterior motives: Respond that you would like to come, and ask if you could invite your pastor. Their response would be very telling, I believe.
 
Here is why I am tossed...(of course I'll let hubby in on this when he gets home, but I know he will appreciate your views on it)...

A couple of the families along with ours all left the same church a little over a year ago...for mostly the same reasons (in particular abuses of authority and position). For this reason I can understand wanting to meet without announcement. I know that they might want to encourage other families to head the families within the church in a certain direction...but to publically announce it might cause friction with those who feel otherwise. It might be a kind of unanounced "small group"...just find it funny that we were "invited" due to them finding our name on the same list as theirs.

However, I don't want to appear subversive to our church elders. I know our elders have read a couple of things by VF, but they haven't really commented on it.
 
Collen: As I understand, a subgroup within the church is having meetings without the church leaders being informed. If so, this is a recipe for disaster. I will tell you that congregational forms of government are prone to this.

This is an excerpt from the Westminster Directory of Family Worship:

VII. Whatsoever have been the effects and fruits of meetings of persons of divers families in the times of corruption or trouble, (in which cases many things are commendable, which otherwise are not tolerable,) yet, when God hath blessed us with peace and purity of the gospel, such meetings of persons of divers families (except in cases mentioned in these Directions) are to be disapproved, as tending to the hinderance of the religious exercise of each family by itself, to the prejudice of the publick ministry, to the rending of the families of particular congregations, and (in progress of time) of the whole kirk. Besides many offences which may come thereby, to the hardening of the hearts of carnal men, and grief of the godly.

In other words, the assembly wanted to keep families from gathering privately in order to preserve the peace of the real church. Gatherings like this have a tendency to lead to factionalism and splitting. The Directory does not bind any of us, but it is prudent advice from wise men.
 
Just fyi, the Directory is binding upon my denomination. I think the Divines were very wise to make note of this particular issue, and I believe it has great relevance today, as we see here.
 
okay, hubby read the email and your responses this morning. Found out the person who sent us the email is still not content even with the church we are in. He doesn't feel it goes far enough (he feels the father is head of the home so much that he isn't open to ministering to others or having their family involved in any type of ministry...pretty much keep to themselves).

We've listened to Doug Phillips on when to leave a church. We all had good reason to leave the last church...but there really is no reason to "leave" or split from this church. And no church is gonna be perfect...we already did our search for that and learned alot of hard lessons about ourselves and others.

Also, these three families are all listed on the the VF site as Reformed Credobaptists...and we are listed as (newly) Reformed Paedobaptists. This would be an area of contention anyhow. The church we are all a part of allows for both views to be held at the moment (the church was not reformed when it initially started...the elders came to that over five or six years ago I believe) and seems to be encouraging of those that believe in household/paedobaptism.
 
Colleen: Didn't your signature block used to indicate that you were attending an PCA bible study? Did you leave the fold? ;)
 
Originally posted by Scott
Colleen: Didn't your signature block used to indicate that you were attending an PCA bible study? Did you leave the fold? ;)

don't whether to :um: or :lol:

It was dividing our loyalties to attend the Wed night study and attend our church on Sunday and was causing some discontent (the grass is greener theory...thing is...if we started traveling full time to the PCA the grass would be greener at CBC). We are more in line with the families at CBC (more family oriented with father as head and more conservative in several areas). We are also able to participate and be family with the ppl at CBC since we live in the area. CBC is growing and church planting...and hubby will probably be training under the pastor there. They are starting on Calvin's Institutes this week.

However, we have maintain a couple of distant friendships through the PCA church and their new associate pastor is a close friend to one of our pastors.
 
for the record, Vision Forum does not in any way support families meeting outside the church or separate from the church while acting like a church (communion, etc). They are very clear on what a church is and that all families should be members of a local body and submissive to its leadership.

Here are a few quotes from VF:

Confession for Family Integrated Worship

ARTICLE II -- God Created Church and Family

We affirm that Almighty God is the sovereign Creator and Preserver of His people and all the institutions that bring blessing to mankind--including the church and the family--and is thus deserving of our highest honor and humble obedience (Col. 1:16-17).

We deny that we, being mere creatures, have a right to refashion the church and family according to our vain imaginations by altering God's prescribed government, worship, gender-based roles, or any other normative patterns revealed in Scripture.

ARTICLE V -- Church's Leadership and Ministry

We affirm God's revealed pattern in Scripture that the church be led and fed by a plurality of biblically qualified elders whom the Holy Spirit raises up from within the local church, who equip all the saints to do the work of ministry, and who may or may not be remunerated (Acts 14:23; 20:28; Eph. 4:11-12; 1 Tim. 5:17-18).

We deny/reject the two unbiblical extremes of our day: authoritarian, one-man leadership/one-man ministry that impedes the biblical functioning of the body, and leaderless house churches that disregard the biblical necessity of elders.

Doug also wrote this article posted on his website: (Emphassis added)

http://www.visionforumministries.org/sections/ncfic/articles/atimeformaturity.asp

Uniting Church and Family: A Time for Maturity

By Doug Phillips,
Posted: October 6, 2003

More than a year ago Vision Forum Ministries launched the National Center for Family Integrated Churches and sponsored our first national conference for Uniting Church and Family. The results were phenomenal. Several things were accomplished: First, a confessional statement was submitted as a summary of the issues and a platform for building unity between church and home. It was widely accepted and met with approbation. Second, hundreds of church leaders committed to working within their local churches for a more Christ-centered, family friendly model of worship and church life. Third, since the conference, scores of church plants have begun with the goal of establishing biblically constituted local churches that complement, rather than undermine, the Christian household.

But once a vision is cast, the real work begins. It is one thing to dream great dreams for Christ; it is another to make ourselves willing vessels of the Lord to accomplish these goals. Vision requires hard work, long-term commitment, and a persevering spirit. Along the way mistakes will be made. The godly man stumbles six times, but rises seven. So too, we must not quit because attempts to unite church and home are imperfect. Nor do we have the luxury of allowing every personal preference which is not appeased to be the basis for severing our relationship with those who stand with us in this great cause. There are ten thousand road obstacles to accomplishing a godly vision, but true leadership requires an indefatigueable willingness to work for a righteous cause to the end.

Having said this, I am amazed at the number of people who quickly give up on a vision when the first micro controversy arises, or when their feelings get hurt over issues of personal preference. Some actually masque a spirit of rebellion under theological verbiage aimed at justifying their unwillingness to commit themselves to others or to be personally accountable within a local body. In fact, many dear believers would rather wander in the valley of indecision and unaccountability for years at a time than risk the challenges associated with commitment.

In my view, we can no longer afford to act and think as children. The need of the day is for maturity. This means making tough choices, and acting on them. It means working through problems, not simply quitting every time a problem arises. It means being a problem solver, not just a complainer. It means recognizing that the grass is not always greener elsewhere.

Three Things Which Happen To Your Children When You Refuse to Yoke Yourselves to a Local Church and Attend its Weekly Meeting

We must acknowledge that there are times and seasons in which godly people find themselves in a genuine wilderness with no visible witness of the Church of Jesus Christ in terms of a doctrinally sound, biblically constituted, faithful assembly. In such cases there are two options: Move to a place where there is such a church or start a church work. Not an option is to remain indefinitely in a state of unaccountability and limbo. Meeting in your home with your family over an extended period of time with no intent to establish a biblically constituted church with government, discipline, sacraments, and exposition of the Word does not count as an attempt to start a church. It does not constitute obedience to the command to "œnot forsake the assembling of yourselves together."

While I recognize that there will always be unusual exceptions to this rule (stuck on a desert island, medical crisis situation, overseas in a Muslim land, etc.), we must assume that there is something unruly and disobedient about believers who simply forsake the assembling of themselves together with some local church for months at a time. Nor is it acceptable to refuse all accountability, where there is a faithful assemblage of believers in your proximity, merely because you fine tune issues differently from them. You have a choice---join, move, or form. Like the local church, none of these choices is perfect. Each carries elements of challenge and danger. Moreover, the best choices usually require the most work, commitment, and flexibility on your part. Whatever you do, there will be a price to pay. Everything great comes at a price. But what must be firmly and categorically emphasized is that God has not given Christians the option of not yoking to a church, of not attending the meeting of the local church, and of not having accountability within the context of a biblical body.

We must count the cost of disobedience. Sometimes the same ability to critically evaluate truth leaves Christians with a critical spirit. Such believers often find that no one is holy enough or "œright" enough to justify joining in fellowship. I oppose the many errors of doctrinal ecumenism, but I equally oppose the isolationism of doctrinal absolutists. Apart from the fact that this attitude shows an historic ignorance for the trials and tribulations of the New Testament church itself, the attitude is just plain rebellious.

Home educators especially must be honest with themselves: If, in their godly and biblical desire to have family friendly churches, they reject for months at a time the meeting of the local church while waiting for God to "solve their problem," or if they simply refuse for years at a time to formally yoke themselves to an imperfect but godly local assembly, they are teaching their children at least three serious errors:


1. Such parents teach their children that the law of God is optional. It must be obeyed only when the circumstances are convenient.


2. Such parents teach their children to have a low view of the local church specifically, and question legitimate authority in general, because of their lackadaisical or openly hostile perspective towards the local church.


3. To the extent that such parents hop from circumstance to circumstance, they are teaching their children to be quitters and preparing them for a pattern of discontentedness.



All of this to make a simple point: Press on for the cause of Christ. Don´t be a quitter. Take your commitment to building godly local churches seriously. Be willing to work hard so that your grandchildren will benefit from the sacrifices you are making today. Do not simply criticize your brothers in the cause, provide viable solutions and then work to implement them. Be patient with your brothers. Love the brethren. Don´t ask what your local church can do for you, but what you can do for your local church.

Phillip
 
Thanks Pastor Way! I knew Doug's stand was to remain in the church if at all possible. But having the statements in front of me helps alot.

BTW, hubby says that when this gentleman says "communiion" he means it as it sounded (the bread and wine).

thank you all for verifying the uneasyness felt in this situation.
 
by the way, my view here would be to ask what right at all do a group of DISGRUNTLED Christians have to meet together purposefully outside the church for worship and observation of the ordinance of the Lord's Table???

By their attitude, secrecy, and actions they are all around setting up a prime opportunity to partake in an UNWORTHY manner - and that does not even get into all the ecclesiastical objections we could raise. They are not a church and are committing serious sin in doing this.

They need to be humbly and lovingly warned before someone gets sick and dies!

Phillip

[Edited on 6-14-05 by pastorway]
 
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