Accurately understanding "Reformed continuationism"

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by Moses Costigan, Mar 1, 2018.

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  1. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I don't see why they need supernatural checks. When Paul says "test the prophecies," I don't see what kind of supernatural criteria could be involved.
    I don't see the NT really concerned about "ordaining" prophets.
     
  2. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    He is forever more the God man Jesus Christ....
     
  3. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    He is still and shall always be for all eternity the same Lord Jesus. Looking back at it, I now see someone could have concluded that He was Jesus while on earth, and than ceased to be while now in Heaven. Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
     
  4. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I agree with you that the Normitive way that God operates today is through the preaching and teaching of the scriptures, but do still see Him at times using things such as visions and dreams to reach into nations and peoples group that were until now closed off from the Gospel. I have just read and heard some testimonies from what I see as credible witnesses that God moving especially among Muslims in this fashion today.
    The people affected still must hear the good news and be turned to Christ by the Holy Spirit, as the prior working is more like preparing them to receive the good news now.
     
  5. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    The purpose of the so called sign gifts were to testify and witness to the truth of Jesus being whom He claimed Himself to be, and the truth of the Gospel itself. God has now firmly established to all the veracity of the truth of Jesus being the Son of God and savior/messiah, and that the scriptures are the very word of God, so why the need for them to continue onward?
     
  6. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Signs and wonders are not needed today, nor the normitive way that God operates today, but in special situations such closed off until now Muslims areas, seems to be operating in some unique fashions even today.
     
  7. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    I've been brought out of both Romanism and Charismaticism, with quite a bit of angst and continued need to work through false teaching.

    Pastor Angus Stewart, of the PRC was helpful both in his written articles and pastoral care. Perhaps some would be helped by this series and also a two hour debate he did, which I recently listened to again and found deeply convincing of Cessationism.

    There is no greater sign and wonder than regeneration by the Spirit, and the justification of the elect sinner in Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/charismaticchristianity.html
    http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/ongoingprophecy.html
    http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/speakingintongues.html
    http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/miracles.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  8. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    They need the checks because Paul required it in public worship (1 Cor 14). The other prophets had to validate that a new revelation was authentic. When John called the church to "test the spirits" he gave them criteria to identify the specific false teaching they faced. That doesn't nullify what Paul said earlier about how prophecy is conducted in public gatherings.

    But we would have to be, because we don't have any apostles or prophets to recognize and validate the ministry of a new prophet.

    The apostles and prophets are linked together in a unique foundational way (Eph 2:20, 3:5). In Revelation 22:6-9, the angel identified the prophets to the apostle John as "your brothers" and as those who uniquely partake of the "spirits of the prophets". Elsewhere in Revelation, the prophets are distinct from the saints (Rev. 11:18, 16:6, 18:20, 18:24).

    Prophecies did not just come sporadically from the saints but from those uniquely called to that office and equipped with that gift. If they are to continue today, then we need the original ecclesiastical structure as well which validated their ministry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  9. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    I think this is the bottom line, Pastor.
     
  10. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I would guess the prophecy's coming true would be one mark. And when Paul told us to discern the prophets, he didn't give us a list. He just assumed it would happen. If there was a supernatural checklist, he should have given it.
    If the NT says ordain prophets, then we can worry about ordination criteria. Some have the gift of encouragement, yet we don't ordain encouragers.
    That doesn't fit with Paul's command that we should all desire the gift of prophecy.
     
  11. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Assertion.
    That has nothing to do with prophecy. Paul says prophecy is a sign for believers, but why would believers need a sign that Jesus is God? They already know that.
     
  12. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    There is a clear distinction between the NT Apostles and OT prophets of God, as they were inspired by the Spirit and infallible when speaking forth for God, or recording down for Him, and the gifts to prophesy were not in the same vein.
    The recordings of the gifts, and how there were meantto function for within thelocal assemblies, were all in the transistion period in the NT, for the Apostles were still living, but when they were all being put to death for sake of Christ, the gifts were shifting from them being normal occurrences, as the Lord left to us then the more sure word of the scriptures/prophecy, as per Peter.
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Interesting discussion , showing the viewpoints between Gaffin and Grudem concerning spiritual gifts.
    http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/35/35-2/JETS_35-2_173-181_White.pdf
     
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  14. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    Have you had an instance when you tested a prophecy? What criteria did you use? If proper discernment is based on the bible, what verses helped you? I am genuinely asking, Jacob.
     
  15. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    There are no Apostles/prophets today, correct?
     
  16. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    That's the problem. There is a lot assumed because they had the system in place to validate the prophecies.

    But encouragers are not listed as specific officers in the church. Prophets are (Eph 4:11). Encouragers are not responsible to communicate divine revelation. Prophets are. Maybe you don't like the word "ordain", but there would have to be some sort of public recognition of his (or her) office in order to exercise it in public worship. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).

    It fits perfectly when you have the ecclesiastical structures in place which were there in that time period.
     
  17. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    When a NT Apostle/Prophet spoke in a church assembly, none needed to check them, as they were operating as inspired of the Lord when giving forth doctrines, but those who were prophesying from God were not in that same situation, as their utterances and revelations were not always true, as were mixed with emotions and false utterances at times.It seems that the gift of prophecy was more giving forth encouragement, guidance, and praise than outright doctrines and divine revelation.
     
  18. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Any claim being made today of a prophecy must be checked against the scriptures themselves.
     
  19. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    David, I reject any claim to modern day prophecy. If you heard someone prophecy, what verses of the bible would you use to substantiate it? How would you check the "credentials" of both the prophet and the one discerning the prophecy?
     
  20. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    But in 1 Cor. 14 he tells the church to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially to prophecy
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I do not say there are apostles today. I am pushing back on some cessationist arguments concerning prophets. I am trying to do everyone a favor. Many Reformed and Macarthurite folks are used to arguing against the Benny Hinns of the world. But if they debated someone like Keener or Michael Brown or Steve Hays, it would be a very differerent story.
     
  22. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I have been in cessationist churches all my life. I've never seen (or heard, rather) a prophecy. I am simply going by the text alone right now. I will bring in experience (or lack thereof) later.
    Depends on what was prophecided, speaking hypothetically, of course. And whether this was actually prophecy or word of knowledge. If someone prophecied, like Richard Cameron, that he would die in the next week, and he indeed died the next week, then it seems an open and shut case.
     
  23. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    Again, the command was made within an ecclesiastical context where the other apostles or prophets could validate the newly gifted prophets in the congregation. Of course, when you have that accountability in place, you can eagerly desire and exercise those gifts in the congregation. But we don't live within that context or ecclesiastical structure anymore, and haven't for 1900 years or so.
     
  24. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    Amen!
     
  25. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Prof. Duguid has already rebutted that statement, and much of it hinges on the denotation of "revelation." As noted above, if God reveals to me that I need to pray for missionary X right now because his life is in danger, is that false and/or unnecessary?
     
  26. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    What is the criteria for apostolic validation of prophets?
     
  27. Cedarbay

    Cedarbay Puritan Board Freshman

    We are agreeing that the Spirit does indeed bring people to our minds for prayer. I don't consider this private revelation.
     
  28. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

    But God has already revealed to us that we ought to pray for all men, and so I don’t see how your example refutes Owen’s quote. Also, i find it hard to believe that the fate of a particular missionary would truly rest on my prayer alone, which is what would seem to be necessary for God to give such a revelation to just me.
     
  29. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Jacob- “if God reveals to me that I need to...” you keep introducing hypotheticals like this. First we need to determine whether Scripture teaches us that God will speak to us this way. Does Scripture say these gifts (I suppose you would label this one a word of knowledge or prophecy?) were for the edification of the church, for the building up of the saints, or were they for private situations like this theoretical situation?
     
  30. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    So Acts 14 tells about the healing of the crippled man at Lystra- I’m not sure what your thinking is, but this text shows how signs and wonders accompanied the apostles’ ministry. I see the text as descriptive rather than prescriptive, and as you know there is a rule of interpretation regarding that distinction. But I may be missing your point.

    1 Corinthians 1:7- I think Paul is thanking God for the grace given to them so abundantly that they do not lack in any gift or grace; and that in all this, they are eagerly awaiting the coming of Christ. I don’t think the verse is speaking to whether or not, or how long, any of these gifts will continue of use in the church. The context just doesn’t seem to be speaking to that, but if you’ve found a commentary that says it does, please share. So far, I don’t think this text proves that Paul sees the extraordinary gifts continuing until Christ returns.
     
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