aeons and ho aiwn ho aiwn

[rpavich]

I'm not quite sure that the font will come through so I'm going to just type in "fake transliterated" Greek for now.

I was speaking with a person who was of the belief that "aeons" only means "ages" as in "a length of time" and that when the word is used, it NEVER means "eternity" or "never-ending"

I looked up the lemma and found that across the board all of the major Lexicons, it's basic meaning is "never ending" or "eternity" and that though it's used other ways...that's basically it.

Well, this person insists that all Lexical sources just translate it that way due to their "theological bias" and not really the word's meaning.

I searched the web and found that there are a LOT of people who believe this and not many places refuting it.

can someone give me some input or a good source of information besides what I've already used?

the only thing that I could think was to say that if that's the case, then all of the references used of God's "eternal" glory and such really means "God's just temporary glory"...and of course nobody would say that's true...

 

[rbcbob]

I'm not quite sure that the font will come through so I'm going to just type in "fake transliterated" Greek for now.

I was speaking with a person who was of the belief that "aeons" only means "ages" as in "a length of time" and that when the word is used, it NEVER means "eternity" or "never-ending"

I looked up the lemma and found that across the board all of the major Lexicons, it's basic meaning is "never ending" or "eternity" and that though it's used other ways...that's basically it.

Well, this person insists that all Lexical sources just translate it that way due to their "theological bias" and not really the word's meaning.

I searched the web and found that there are a LOT of people who believe this and not many places refuting it.

can someone give me some input or a good source of information besides what I've already used?

the only thing that I could think was to say that if that's the case, then all of the references used of God's "eternal" glory and such really means "God's just temporary glory"...and of course nobody would say that's true...

When someone tells you "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up", just smile and let them go back to the koolaide.

 

[Prufrock]

First I would have the person carefully read LSJ's entry for the word (since they cannot claim this to be a "theologically biased" source). The entry can be found here.. That uses shown therein sufficiently eliminate the notion that the word never conveys the concept of perpetuity or eternality. The real issue, however, is not what the word meant in Classical Greek, but theologically and exegetically what it means in the context of the New Testament.

 

[rpavich]

The real issue, however, is not what the word meant in Classical Greek, but theologically and exegetically what it means in the context of the New Testament.

I think this is what they are getting at, let me try and summarize.


"The REAL theology of the bible was that there is NO eternal Hell, only temporal punishment and then the people who've been sent there are annihilated.

The people who write lexicons and commentaries have an agenda against this and that INFORMS their definition of Aeon...so you cannot go by any Lexicon or commentary.

Since everyone has an opinion and mine is as good as yours, and since I've now disallowed any authority to consult, then you can't tell me I'm wrong."

 

[Jon Peters]

Doesn't Vos in Pauline Eschatology deal with this is some shape or form?

 

[CharlieJ]

Pretty clear

There are several places in the NT that clearly refute this:

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

"Forever" is εις τον αιωνα (unto the age). It would be absurd to think that Jesus was speaking of people believing in him only being granted an extension on life.

Romans 16:27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

"Forevermore" is εις τους αιωνας (unto the ages). Again, it is absurd to suggest Paul is ascribing glory only until the end of a limited "age." Hebrews 13:21 is parallel.

The Septuagint is clear as well, as early as Gen. 3:22

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever( εις τον αιωνα)." Seriously, the tree of life only lets you live to the end of some "age"?

Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever (εις τον αιωνα), for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." Here the contrast is between an indefinite and definite period.


Now, it is true that context can limit the duration. For example, Exodus 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever (εις τον αιωνα)." Obviously, there is a termination to this. However, it is illegitimate to conclude that the word or phrase must be limited simply because it can be limited. The context clearly usually clearly indicates the duration.

 

[rpavich]

charlie,
that was along the lines that I was thinking also..thanks for the good information, clearly presented.

I would say that this is the most solid way to deal with it that I can see.

If someone is willing to say that these are just "durations" then I'm not sure that anything can be discussed rationally...

 

[rpavich]

All,
I finally said this thanks to CharlieJ's suggestion that I go this route:

Laura,

Quote:
Because, well, I was getting mad. Plus, I'm trying to quit smoking... and I'm probably not being as nice as I would normally be.

No problem, I understand.

-------------------------------------
As for your thoughts on Aeon being just a length of time:

I did a study on the various forms of "aeon" and related phrases including OT cognates...and truthfully, the only way to see it as not "eternal" in the passages we are speaking about is to just dismiss every lexical, grammatical, and historical Christian book for the last several hundred years at least....if not longer even.

I understand that the actual WORD aeon CAN also mean something OTHER than "eternity" or "without end" the fact is that almost all of the time it does.

Here is an example:

eis ho qeonion ho aeonion is used 18 times in reference to Christ and/or God the father.

Am I to assume that you believe that "to whom be glory forever and ever! Amen." actually means "to whom be the glory for a pretty long time and a pretty long time, amen"?

Or in Revelation:
"Each one of the four living creatures had six wings and was full of eyes all around and inside. They never rest day or night, saying:
Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God, the All-Powerful,
Who was and who is, and who is still to come!
And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives ***forever and ever,*** the twenty-four elders throw themselves to the ground before the one who sits on the throne and worship the one who lives ***forever and ever,*** and they offer their crowns before his throne, saying:

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power,
since you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created!

Means that they are giving glory to God who lives for a really long time?

If you're going to say that, then we REALLY have a huge divide between us, but if you don't affirm that, my question is why?

Why NOT affirm that?

Same thing in the OT with OLAM. Sure you can find a place where the semantic range allows for something less than "eternity" but so what?

ALL words have a semantic range and all words ONLY have meaning IN CONTEXT.

That's just life.

Did you notice something? I used the word "life" in a certain way. I meant "that's the way it goes..." or "that's how things are" but take a look at the semantic range of the actual word life:
This is a partial list; the actual list is twice as long:

A: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
B: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
C: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
D: the period from birth to death
E: a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convicts life
F: a way or manner of living
G: livelihood


But you KNEW what I meant by the common usage of the phrase, our common understanding of the idioms of the English language and the context of my comment that it was found in.

The same goes for aeon. It has a semantic range and can be used a certain way...but the context is king.

There are no hard feelings over this...I understand that things can get a little heated...

God bless you too,
bob


I hope that helps you to see where I'm coming from on this.

 

[rpavich]

If I could get your help once again; this person is appealing to a man named "John Wesley Harding" for ALL of her info.

It seems that all of the universalist websites love him; although I don't know much about him.

here is a link to a google book of where she's getting all of the info:

Aiōn-aiōnios: the Greek word ... - Google Books



I guess my thought would be; what makes her think that JW Harding has any more authority than any other scholar?

His basic premise is that scholars have perverted the meaning of aeon for there own purposes...

I did find this about JW Hanson:


John Wesley Hanson

HANSON, John Wesley,
author,
born in Boston, Massachusetts, 12 May, 1823.
After attending the Lowell high school, he entered a counting-room in that city, where he remained seven years, still continuing his studies, he was ordained to the ministry of the Universalist church in Wentworth, New Hampshire, in 1845, held pastorates in Danvers, Massachusetts, in 1846-'8, and Gardiner, Maine, in 1850-'4, and in 1848 edited the "Massachusetts Era," the first Republican paper in Lowell.

He edited the "Gospel Banner" in Augusta, Maine, in 1854-'60, and was pastor in Haverhill, Massachusetts, till 1865, serving also in 1863-'4 as chaplain of the 6th Massachusetts regiment and army correspondent of the Boston "Journal" and the New York "Tribune."

He was pastor in Dubuque, Iowa, in 1866-'9, and then had charge of the "New Covenant " in Chicago, Illinois, till 1884. Buchtel college, Ohio, gave him the degree of D. D. in 1876. He has published histories of Danvers, Massachusetts (Danvers, 1847), Norridgewock, Maine (Norridgewock, 1849), and Gardiner, Maine (Gardiner, 1852); "Bible Threatenings Explained " (Chicago, 1847);"Witnesses to the Truth," a collection of quotations from the poets (Boston, 1850; enlarged as "Cloud of Witnesses," 1883);" Aion-Aionios" (Chicago, 1876); " Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation" (1877); " Twelve Sermons on the Lord's Prayer" (1883); " The New Covenant," a translation of the New Testament" (2 vols., 1883-'5); and "Voices of the Faith " (1884).--His wife, Eliza Rice (HOLBROOK), born in Norridgewock, Maine, 11 April, 1825; died in Blue Island, Illinois, 16 September, 1865, married Dr. Hanson on 30 May, 1846. She published "Women Workers," a popular book.