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How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
I respond by saying that it is possible the universe actually is 13.7 billion years old.
The speed of light, as far as I know, has not always been constant. Furthermore, as Todd noted, it's based on unfounded assumptions. Can God not create an already mature earth with light already there? Yeah.
How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
How does a believer respond to the age of the universe posited by the naturalist which states that the ovservable universe is 13.7 billion years old because light, which is the fastest thing existing, took that long to reach us?
'Amen, brother?'
As a Humphreyite, I agree that parts of the universe are that old. Some are younger, some are older, depending upon how close they are to the earth; owing to relativity, time flowed faster for them than it did on Earth during creation week, so they actually did age billions of years.
The problem with the "created light" idea is the 1970A supernova. If this hypothesis were true, the star that was observed to explode actually never did--the image of its explosion was created in transit, and behind it was a supernova remnant the whole time. In other words, we saw an event that never happened. I personally don't think God would create a deception like that; it seems inconsistent with His nature.
On a related note, though . . . and I'm not talking 13.7 Billion . . . it does appear, from geological/paleontological records and such, that the earth is very old. And since creation is revelation, does a young earth theory necessarily imply that God's revelation is deceptive? Just a question. It's an issue I'm only recently dealing with. So, instead of flaming me, help me 'see the light' (bad pun intended).
The problem with the "created light" idea is the 1970A supernova. If this hypothesis were true, the star that was observed to explode actually never did--the image of its explosion was created in transit, and behind it was a supernova remnant the whole time. In other words, we saw an event that never happened. I personally don't think God would create a deception like that; it seems inconsistent with His nature.
I understand your concern, but that doesn't rule out the fact that God did that. And certainly I wouldn't dream of classifying his ability or right to do such a thing as a deception. It seems as if you dismiss the ability (or probability) of God to create the universe with the appearance of age out of hand, as it doesn't support the supposed evidence interpreted by secular scientists, whose presuppositions are to eliminate or deny the supernatural.
Did God connect the earth and the stars with light without making that light travel from the stars to the earth?
Did God make the light appear on the earth without causing the light to travel?
The problem with the "created light" idea is the 1970A supernova. If this hypothesis were true, the star that was observed to explode actually never did--the image of its explosion was created in transit, and behind it was a supernova remnant the whole time. In other words, we saw an event that never happened. I personally don't think God would create a deception like that; it seems inconsistent with His nature.
I understand your concern, but that doesn't rule out the fact that God did that. And certainly I wouldn't dream of classifying his ability or right to do such a thing as a deception. It seems as if you dismiss the ability (or probability) of God to create the universe with the appearance of age out of hand, as it doesn't support the supposed evidence interpreted by secular scientists, whose presuppositions are to eliminate or deny the supernatural.
Couple of things:
1) if God created the universe with apparent age, it really would be 13.7 billion years old, even if time has not existed that long.
2) While I know the 144 hour creation theory would have problems with this, there are plenty of theories for interpretation of Gen 1 that do not require 144 hours.
Of the two, anyone could use the former. For the 144 hour creationist, the first should be fine. God could have created Adam with a navel, with a scar on his right arm that looked for all the world like a shark bite, and as a 25-year-old man.
For the second, it would present problems for those that hold to a YE, 144 hour creation. But it is consistent with a non-literal view of the Gen 1 creation account (like Augustine's) and certainly does no damage to the rest of scripture.
The problem with the "created light" idea is the 1970A supernova. If this hypothesis were true, the star that was observed to explode actually never did--the image of its explosion was created in transit, and behind it was a supernova remnant the whole time. In other words, we saw an event that never happened. I personally don't think God would create a deception like that; it seems inconsistent with His nature.
I understand your concern, but that doesn't rule out the fact that God did that. And certainly I wouldn't dream of classifying his ability or right to do such a thing as a deception. It seems as if you dismiss the ability (or probability) of God to create the universe with the appearance of age out of hand, as it doesn't support the supposed evidence interpreted by secular scientists, whose presuppositions are to eliminate or deny the supernatural.
My problem with this is very simply put. If my son put together evidence of something that never happened, didn't actually say that the event that he made to appear to have happened, what would you call it? Duplicity? Deception? Certainly a violation of the 9th commandment. Do we really want to attribute to God what we would call lying in our own children?
My problem with this is very simply put. If my son put together evidence of something that never happened, didn't actually say that the event that he made to appear to have happened, what would you call it? Duplicity? Deception? Certainly a violation of the 9th commandment. Do we really want to attribute to God what we would call lying in our own children?
Couple of things:
1) if God created the universe with apparent age, it really would be 13.7 billion years old, even if time has not existed that long.
2) While I know the 144 hour creation theory would have problems with this, there are plenty of theories for interpretation of Gen 1 that do not require 144 hours.
Of the two, anyone could use the former. For the 144 hour creationist, the first should be fine. God could have created Adam with a navel, with a scar on his right arm that looked for all the world like a shark bite, and as a 25-year-old man.
For the second, it would present problems for those that hold to a YE, 144 hour creation. But it is consistent with a non-literal view of the Gen 1 creation account (like Augustine's) and certainly does no damage to the rest of scripture.
At what point do we begin reading Genesis "literally?" There are many who would take that line of reasoning past Genesis 1.
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I understand your concern, but that doesn't rule out the fact that God did that. And certainly I wouldn't dream of classifying his ability or right to do such a thing as a deception. It seems as if you dismiss the ability (or probability) of God to create the universe with the appearance of age out of hand, as it doesn't support the supposed evidence interpreted by secular scientists, whose presuppositions are to eliminate or deny the supernatural.
My problem with this is very simply put. If my son put together evidence of something that never happened, didn't actually say that the event that he made to appear to have happened, what would you call it? Duplicity? Deception? Certainly a violation of the 9th commandment. Do we really want to attribute to God what we would call lying in our own children?
I didn't say God deceived. I am making the point the star could have very well exploded, then God "stretched out the heavens." Eisegetical interpretation into God's natural creation is problem for Christians as much as is eisegetical interpretation of the Scriptures. The problem is you have to continually change with the interpretations of unbelieving scientists. And you are at the mercy of believing they always tell the truth about the things they report. Scientists have been know to lie, just look at the history of the supposed "missing links."
My problem with this is very simply put. If my son put together evidence of something that never happened, didn't actually say that the event that he made to appear to have happened, what would you call it? Duplicity? Deception? Certainly a violation of the 9th commandment. Do we really want to attribute to God what we would call lying in our own children?
The main problem here is it's not your created son we are talking about. You are measuring God against a human interpretation of a standard of morality. How is it certainly a violation of the 9th commandment? If God created a mature tree, and then said, "I created this mature tree," there is no lie.
Now if God created a mature universe and said, "I created this in the space of six days" and he leaves it at that, how can that be called a lie?
It hardly fits that by finding evidence of a mature universe we are in a position to attribute deception to God.
Todd,
I defer to your knowledge here. What is wrong with the Russ Humphrey gravitational time dilation ("white hole") explanation (in layman's terms)?
Claiming 13.7 billion years presents problems for the old earthers too. "Observed" distances in the universe exceed the 13.7/13.8 billion number. The horizon problem is a difficulty for big bangers as well. (Granted there are proposed solutions by them to the problem. I'm just indicating that it is not all cut and dried).
Incidentally, if memory serves me, my high school physics class was claiming closer to 20 billion years. It is interesting how the "assured" results of science change over time. Again, it has a lot to do with the interpretive framework in which the "facts" and observations are put.