Alcohol and the Christian (once again); Was Peter masters

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What i really to know, is if it would be a problem for you to know if your pastor drinks once in the while a glass of red wine (without becoming druk) ?
 
Alcohol is a gift of God and not to be despised. To abstain from social drinking for personal reasons is one's prerogative. But Jesus Himself turned water into wine as his first miracle and used wine in the institution of the Lord's Supper. To adopt a prohibitionist position would be to 1) bind the conscience where God's word has not done so; and 2) to violate the ordinance of the Lord's Supper by altering one of the commanded elements (ie., wine).

I commend Ken Gentry's book God Gave Wine which is a thorough Biblical defense of the moderationist position in contrast with the prohibitionist and abstentionist positions.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Alcohol is a gift of God and not to be despised. To abstain from social drinking for personal reasons is one's prerogative. But Jesus Himself turned water into wine as his first miracle and used wine in the institution of the Lord's Supper. To adopt a prohibitionist position would be to 1) bind the conscience where God's word has not done so; and 2) to violate the ordinance of the Lord's Supper by altering one of the commanded elements (ie., wine).
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:ditto:
 
I do not judge harshly those who drink alcohol in moderation. I understand it is not a crystal clear question, and fine and faithful Christians have come to different conclusions.

But has anyone actually read the book in question? Can anyone point out where Dr. Masters has gone astray in his reasoning?

It is well enough to state your position on the issue, but can anyone interact with Dr. Masters' arguments?

Blessings,

Jie-Huli
 
The only reasons I can think to abstain are:

1. if you may have a propensity to become a drunkard.
(like a family history of drunkards)

2. If it may be a stumbling block to someone else.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot


I commend Ken Gentry's book God Gave Wine which is a thorough Biblical defense of the moderationist position in contrast with the prohibitionist and abstentionist positions.
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Andrew, do you know where I can buy this book new?
 
Originally posted by bond-servant
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot


I commend Ken Gentry's book God Gave Wine which is a thorough Biblical defense of the moderationist position in contrast with the prohibitionist and abstentionist positions.
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Andrew, do you know where I can buy this book new?
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Beth, You can get the book for $13 (the cheapest new price I have seen) right here.
 
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I do not judge harshly those who drink alcohol in moderation. I understand it is not a crystal clear question, and fine and faithful Christians have come to different conclusions.

But has anyone actually read the book in question? Can anyone point out where Dr. Masters has gone astray in his reasoning?

It is well enough to state your position on the issue, but can anyone interact with Dr. Masters' arguments?

Blessings,

Jie-Huli
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I think this is wise. It is always helpful and respectful to be able to deal with opposing arguments on their ground - especially when they are the de facto position in the Church at large.
 
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I do not judge harshly those who drink alcohol in moderation. I understand it is not a crystal clear question, and fine and faithful Christians have come to different conclusions.

But has anyone actually read the book in question? Can anyone point out where Dr. Masters has gone astray in his reasoning?

It is well enough to state your position on the issue, but can anyone interact with Dr. Masters' arguments?

Blessings,

Jie-Huli
Click to expand...

I would be VERY intrested in this book, more so I would be inrested in seeing these two positions debated as you sem to be looking for here. I hope someone would be intrested but I am not counting on it.
 
My opinion, based upon recent discussions, it would be best to abstain for fear of stumbling anyone. In the same way I choose to embrace EP because of it's 'safety' factor in worship, I choose to abstain from drinking anywhere but in the privacy of my own home.
 
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I do not judge harshly those who drink alcohol in moderation. I understand it is not a crystal clear question, and fine and faithful Christians have come to different conclusions.

But has anyone actually read the book in question? Can anyone point out where Dr. Masters has gone astray in his reasoning?

It is well enough to state your position on the issue, but can anyone interact with Dr. Masters' arguments?

Blessings,

Jie-Huli
Click to expand...

I haven't read Masters' book so I can't comment directly on what he says. Gentry's book deals with a prohibitionist named Stephen Reynolds. If you want to read a debate between Gentry and Reynolds on the subject, see the Volume II, Number 2 1991 issue of Antithesis.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
My opinion, based upon recent discussions, it would be best to abstain for fear of stumbling anyone. In the same way I choose to embrace EP because of it's 'safety' factor in worship, I choose to abstain from drinking anywhere but in the privacy of my own home.
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Scott, Is this your position on tobacco too?
 
I have not considered that Andrew. Do you think this would be inconsistant not to as well consider tobacco? I guesss I have seen more people destroyed over alcohol/substance abuse than I have tobacco, so I am inclined more toward the abstinence on that issue.




[Edited on 11-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
If it's a question of causing people to stumble, I'd think more professing Christians (whether considered "weak" or not) would oppose use of tobacco today, even in moderation, than would oppose moderate use of alcohol.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I have not considered that Andrew. Do you think this would be inconsistant not to as well consider tobacco? I guesss I have seen more people destroyed over alcohol/substance abuse than I have tobacco, so I am inclined more toward the abstinence on that issue.




[Edited on 11-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]
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I think there is no principial difference between alcohol and tobacco on Christian liberty issues (smoking is, I think, considered the greatest "sin" by many today) -- except that wine is a commanded element of the Lord's Supper. I think abstention of either for fear of what others think is not what Christian liberty is all about. As Martin Luther said, "Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying [or abstaining from] the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish [or abstain from] women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky." [edits mine]
 
Well,
To be honest with you, based upon past discussions w/ Fred and P Way, I am totally confused. I don't want to go through the whole thing again here, but they have 'bound' my conscience. I don't fault Fred or Phillip for that, as they have alluded, Pauls warning is clear............so based upon that, I will approach the liberty w/ caution.

Make sense?
 
I think women and the sun, moon, and stars is a weak argument. I have a daughter who drinks, he used to drink to much and poissibly may still do so on ocasion. I HATE it was every passion in me. I never have drank, never knew anyone (before coming here) who drank responsably. If I drank it would further encourage my daughter and any other kid I work with that it's "cool". If the man who preaches Christ to them more than anyone else in their life drank beer it would without a doubt be a stumbeling block. If they read threads like this it would be a stumbeling block.

While smoking (which I do not do either) can cause you il health, you cannot get drunk from it. Absuing tobacco only harms you, abusing alcohol can harm anyone around you.
 
Would then total abstinance also preclude the BUYING of alcohol, though you may only use it for cooking b/c someone might stumble seeing you walk in a liqour store?

What about use of alcohol medicinally - a tablespoon of whisky to ward off the flu? :detective:
 
Originally posted by bond-servant
Would then total abstinance also preclude the BUYING of alcohol, though you may only use it for cooking b/c someone might stumble seeing you walk in a liqour store?

What about use of alcohol medicinally - a tablespoon of whisky to ward off the flu? :detective:
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Beth,
I will not go any further with my convicition; I am drawing some lines for myself.

As far as whiskey warding off the flu: A flu is generally viral. Alcohol does nothing to inhibit viral replication or proliferation; it may make you care less about it, but it is not an anti-viral.
 
How often is alcohol needed for cooking? Is it often? Isn't there "cooking alcohol"?

If I need medicine with alcohol I just use Nyquil.
 
I think I'll pick up Master's book to see what he says. I've always held the moderationist position, by default, but do not want to do so without truly examining all the evidence.

It seems to me the major point of contention is the alcoholic vs. nonalcoholic juice argument. For me it's like the subject of textual criticism, with one scholar disagreeing with another scholar until finally the poor layman's head is spinning! That's why I was wondering if Master's book is really that good, that good a defense of the abstainer's position.

Of all the practical arguments from the abstainer's position, the one I find most convincing is that there are so many warnings against drunkeness in the Bible, and yet we are not told what consitutes drunkeness. Are we to decide for ourselves when we have "crossed the line"? Are we to be the judges between good and evil, and that after a couple glasses of Merlot? The mandate is to avoid drunkeness, period, and it would seem the line should be clear to draw. It would be foolish to think we can have a little fornication, a little covetousness, a little idolatry, and the same must go for drunkeness.

I think that's their best argument.

One thing I will say-- last night being Thanksgiving, I had a glass of red wine and ended up not enjoying it at all. I felt much better after a strong cup of coffee. I'd had the same experience recently at a restaurant after having a beer, which I have always enjoyed in the past. Just didn't sit well. Maybe I've become allergic to alcohol? Now that would solve all my problems, wouldn't it? :D
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
For me, the question remains, is it worth stumbling someone?
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That probably is the million dollar question.

In the sermon
I was listening to by Rev. Hamilton, he brings up Spurgeon and his cigar smoking, and how this has been used to defend the Christian use of tobacco. He then related a story of how Spurgeon was riding around London one day and spotted a tobacco shop with a sign out front that read "SMOKE THE SAME CIGAR THAT C.H. SPURGEON SMOKES!!", and that apparently he quit the habit after seeing that.

Not sure if that's true, but it's in his sermon.
 
Rick,
I've heard the same story. The risk, is not worth the use. previously, I missed the most important point. I was focusing on making my heart glad in liu of considering my love for the brethren.
 
For what it's worth: For the last 15 years, neither dh or I have "had a drink" at home or otherwise, but I have had the same gut feeling about total abstinance out of conviction, as some Dispensational stuff: it was not properly balancing the Scriptures. We are currently leaning toward drinking in moderation, though have not really acted upon it.

Scott: haven't I seen a plethera of threads where you have spoken about which brew you were drinking? I haven't gone back and pulled up the threads, so I could have gotten you confused with someone else?

Also, do you not think smoking is just as (if not more) addictive, and even in moderation has been proven to be damaging to our bodies which is the temple of God? (and wine in moderation has shown to be beneficial or neutral)

Curious: Where are the relplies from the "active" social drinkers on this site?
 
Regarding the old argument that wine in biblical times had less or no alcohol in it, has seemed it fails on a few counts:

1)Noah was able to get drunk. Presumably it is impossible to become intoxicated on non-alcoholic beverages. The LXX uses Oinos in Gen 9:21, 24. This is the same noun in the NT. See also Gen 19:32; Prov 20:1 etc.

2) The background to the wedding at Cana and implied the narrative is that folk usually brought out the less expensive wine later in the feast (week) because folks were already "in their cups." (See John 2:10; same noun as Gen 9 etc in the LXX ) That is the assumption behind the surprise at the sudden appearance of excellent wine in the wedding.

3) If wine in biblical times contained no or little alcohol content (as compared to modern wine) then why the injunctions regarding drunkenness and wine? E.g., Eph 5:18. The injunction is not to be drunk (Methuskomai - same verb used in Gen 9 etc in the LXX. The injunction is not to abstain. Hence the injunction in 1 Tim 3:8 not to be addicted/given to "much wine" (same noun as before). Hence Paul enjoins Timothy to "drink a little oinos" for his stomach's sake.

Unless the noun oinos has endless elasticity then it denotes an alcoholic beverage capable, when consumed immoderately, of producing intoxication. This beverage is not forbidden to Christians but its abuse is.

Why is this difficult?

I can understand prudential arguments against the consumption of alcohol, but I am pressed to see the exegetical or logical force of arguments against alcohol consumption that purport to be biblical or theological in character.

rsc
 
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