alt translation of Romans 8:28

[Chris Scott]

Sometime in the past few months, I read an article about an alternative translation for Romans 8:28. I was intrigued and found it worth reading more closely at the time, and now, of course, I cannot find it. Did I dream this? It's not in my Chrome history, Google isn't getting me there, can't find discussions of it here (a 2007 thread comes close, but nope), even ATLA/Ebsco came up dry, and my well-stocked church library is closed due to construction.

The translation was along the lines of "God works with those who love him to accomplish good purposes." (I may have butchered that, so let's not make too much of it unless we find the actual source.) The argument rested on complicated Greek grammar that's beyond me. The author found the interpretation to be consonant with Philippians 2:13 ("God works in you to will and act in order to fulfill his good purpose"). It it's a solid translation, this seems like a big deal, but I'm starting from a point of skepticism.

Any chance someone can point me to this article or another resource making this argument? It would be very helpful for a project I'm working on (and for sanity's sake, I need to know I'm not dreaming it up).

 

[ryanpresnell]

Hi Chris,

After looking at the Greek text of Romans 8:28, it looks like this is not something you made up - although I humbly submit with my limited knowledge of the language that I don't think that is a very good translation. It seems that whoever is making this argument is suggesting that τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν, "to the ones loving", should instead be translated as "with the ones loving". Either translation, if this two-word phrase is taken on its own, is plausible. This phrase is in the dative, which can be ambiguous at times. Here is a link that illustrates the many forms that the dative case can take on. I think that the translation you provided has some marked differences from how I would translate the verse; most notably, you are missing "all things" (πάντα). If I were to grant that the dative takes the particular form required for the translation you are considering, I would translate the verse this way [slightly wooden in order to create a more literal translation]:

"We know that God, with those loving God, works all things unto good, for those being called according to His purpose"

There's a pretty big problem here that I can see. Even the most pious lovers of God do not work all things for good. This would also cancel out the dative of means, "by means of those who love him, God works all things unto good," since God does not solely accomplish good by means of his elect- He uses plenty of other means. Another issue for this translation is that it relies on the presence of "ὁ θεὸς", "God" (the subject of "συνεργεῖ", "work together"). The NIV, NASB include it but the KJV, ESV do not. I included it in my translation because otherwise, the translation you are considering is impossible; however, I'm not going to vouch for either reading because I haven't looked into it. I'm sorry, I can't point you to an article or other resource making that particular argument since I was unable to find one, but I hope this helped to contextualize the translation of the passage a little bit!

 

[Chris Scott]

Thanks very much. If we can't find the article, maybe you should write one! I do remember "dative" being in the discussion. That's probably about where I thought "I need to spend more time with this later." I think the translation did include the "all things," I'm just not remembering it well. I was intrigued because it didn't seem at all heretical, but very different than the translations we're used to. I am very skeptical of anything that goes against hundreds of years of orthodox belief, so if this is something no one here has heard of, maybe it's not worth pursuing.

 

[Schoolman]

“All things” is the subject of the verse, not God or his called ones. “All things work together for good”… Dative has nothing to do with that.

’We know then that for them—lovers of God, all things work out as good for them—called by design.’

So the good we experience is not just with us, does not just come along, it is designed for us on purpose.

 

[ryanpresnell]

“All things” is the subject of the verse, not God or his called ones.

This is the view that I'm inclined to accept (although it doesn't seem to me that the meaning of the verse would change very much if God was the subject of the verb); however, it's grammatically plausible that "πάντα" (all things) is the object of the verb "συνεργεῖ" (work together). If "ὁ θεὸς" is original to the text, "πάντα", being in the neuter gender, would then take the accusative rather than the nominative case and thus be the object of "συνεργεῖ". I unfortunately made a mistake in my previous response and failed to notice that since the singular verb is used, even if "ὁ θεὸς" is not original to the text, the subject of "συνεργεῖ" could still be God. "προέγνω" and "προώρισεν" in verse 29 each derive their subject, God, from the antecedent "τὸν Θεὸν" in verse 28.

Dative has nothing to do with that.

The point of bringing up the dative phrase "τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν" was not to determine what the subject of the verb is! The main point of the thread is whether Romans 8:28 should be translated (shorthand) "with those who love him" or "for/to those who love him". This is dependent on which form the dative phrase is taking on.

 

[Schoolman]

Θεόν is authentically part of the text. It is accusative and cannot be the subject. And does everything really work with “them who love God?” That would be amazing.

 

[ryanpresnell]

Θεόν is authentically part of the text. It is accusative and cannot be the subject.

I apologize if I have given a lack of clarity in my responses- I think there may be some miscommunication going on. I’m not contesting that “θεόν” is authentic to the text. In the textual variants which I am referring to, an additional “θεὸς” is present, making it the subject of the verb. I’m not arguing that the accusative is acting as the subject. If the verse is in fact saying that God works all things together, the subject would be “he”, that is, God.

And does everything really work with “them who love God?” That would be amazing.

I agree- this is the point I made I my first reply and the reason I think that “with those who love him” is not a very good translation.