Amillenialism and the Signs of the times.

[TannedIrishman]

I've only recently over the past few months gone from dispensationalism to Covenant theology. Once that happened, I had to drop a pre-trib rapture and after a while drop Premillennialism. However being now Amil (which I believe is the true eschatology of hope, sorry Postmil friends), I'm now lost as to the timing and chronology of eschatological events. What I once thought was a clear outline of history has now become symbolic. I don't know much about the Amil view, but from what I do know, it makes sense to me. However, does it leave us with any signs to watch out for? Or could Christ return today? Will there even be a final Man of Sin so to speak? I know how the ending of Amil teaching goes, but it doesn't seem to give us much to look to now, it's like we just don't know anything about the future anymore, and if things get worse, hope Jesus comes back soon.

I hope my question makes sense. I just feel lost eschatologically and don't know what to expect anymore (a global government? Middle Eastern and regional antichrist? Return of Christ without warning? Nations gathered for battle?)

 

[rbcbob]

More Than Conquerors by William Hendriksen. Brief, Satisfying, overview of the Book of Revelation. (Spoiler alert: The Lamb Wins)

 

[RamistThomist]

I'm coming to the conclusion that the method in interpreting "eschatological" passages is not immediately tied down to one's own position on the millennium's timing. For a while I was a historicist amil, where with the Reformers I saw papacy as man of sin, etc. I currently hold to something like historic premillannialism, bu with historicism as the hermeneutics (unless I see a contradiction elsewhere).

Short answer: if you hold to a Reformer's view ala historicism and tag it with ammillennialism, then you can begin to answer some of these questions. If you go the idealist route and everything is "spiritual," well, I don't really know how they would interpret key events in the future.

 

[TannedIrishman]

That's an interesting observation, could you tell me more about this view and if you know of similar minded resources?

 

[RamistThomist]

That's an interesting observation, could you tell me more about this view and if you know of similar minded resources?

Historicism? Short answer: prophetic events are being unfolded over history. Long answer: THe Reformers. Their are some good sermons on it but not any recent good commenttaries.

 

[jwithnell]

What I have found most helpful has been reading Biblical theology and solid exposition of the texts. Gerhardous Vos and GK Beale for the first, and reading John Murray on Romans 11, listening to Sinclair Ferguson on Revelations (available via SermonAudio) and listening to John Fesko on Danial (via the Geneva Presbyterian OPC in Georgia website).

 

[Peairtach]

I've only recently over the past few months gone from dispensationalism to Covenant theology. Once that happened, I had to drop a pre-trib rapture and after a while drop Premillennialism. However being now Amil (which I believe is the true eschatology of hope, sorry Postmil friends), I'm now lost as to the timing and chronology of eschatological events. What I once thought was a clear outline of history has now become symbolic. I don't know much about the Amil view, but from what I do know, it makes sense to me. However, does it leave us with any signs to watch out for? Or could Christ return today? Will there even be a final Man of Sin so to speak? I know how the ending of Amil teaching goes, but it doesn't seem to give us much to look to now, it's like we just don't know anything about the future anymore, and if things get worse, hope Jesus comes back soon.

I hope my question makes sense. I just feel lost eschatologically and don't know what to expect anymore (a global government? Middle Eastern and regional antichrist? Return of Christ without warning? Nations gathered for battle?)

Do you have to be able to ''chart'' everything, or does God want us to be able to chart history in advance? Personally I'm a postmil with historicist/idealist leanings, so I might have more of a loose "chart" than some amils, but the main things to know are certain, that there will be the second advent of Christ at the end of history, that there will be the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, and that there will be the judgment. Then a new heavens and new earth.

We also know that the world will end for us in death, which we must be ready for; or in the second advent, if you believe in the "any minute" end of the world, which I don't.

Does the Bible tell us specific things e.g. whether or not there will be a persecutory civil government for a time in America or Britain, in our lifetimes?

I doubt it.

 

[MW]

The "signs of the times" related to the coming of the Messiah. The carnal expectations of the Jews blinded them from seeing it. Regrettably, many who call themselves Christians also seek a carnal kingdom on earth and thereby fail to see the signs of the times, namely, the presence of the kingdom throughout this inter-adventual period. Tribulation and triumph are part of the presence of the kingdom throughout history.

 

[RamistThomist]

also see Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, volume 3, pp. 800-836.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi again, Josh,

Here are some Eschatology threads, posts, and articles that may edify you. I began focusing a lot of attention on the Amil view after I preached 60-some sermons on Revelation in 2009-2010. It's a good bit of material (none of the sermons are here) but you may find these both interesting and convincing.

 

[Jerome Rosana]

I am currently new to Reformed Theology. The church that I am currently attending here in the Philippines had the priviledged to have a skype session with Kim Riddlebarger. We discussed about this "Amillenialism", I came from a Wesleyan doctrine and it was different teaching about "rapture".

 

[Justified]

I am currently new to Reformed Theology. The church that I am currently attending here in the Philippines had the priviledged to have a skype session with Kim Riddlebarger. We discussed about this "Amillenialism", I came from a Wesleyan doctrine and it was different teaching about "rapture".

I'd like to be the first to welcome you brother. I think that you will find this a wonderful place to learn reformed theology.

 

[Brandt]

My personal advice is that you don't have to look for signs. If you lived in the 1940's, you could have constantly seen everything in terms of signs of the end, the same thing if you lived during the Civil War, the depression, the 1960's, the fall of Rome, the Black Plague in Europe, etc. Just live your life to the glory of God, and know that when Christ comes back, you will be His. I know it's a totally different way of thinking from what you are accustomed. Of course, that doesn't mean you don't consider the Anti-Christ and other things surrounding the end of times, because Scripture addresses it. Just a side note, one of the reasons I became amill is that their theologians all seem to be very vague about these things (But they are still theological), whereas compared to many dispensationalists, I have found they have an answer as to what every end times reference means, and it is ALWAYS set in the time that we are living in.

 

[Andres]

I am currently new to Reformed Theology. The church that I am currently attending here in the Philippines had the priviledged to have a skype session with Kim Riddlebarger. We discussed about this "Amillenialism", I came from a Wesleyan doctrine and it was different teaching about "rapture".

I second checking out Dr. Riddlebarger's work on Amilennialism. I found him most helpful regarding eschatology when I made the transition from dispensationalism to CT. You can listen to his series of lectures on Amilennialism here and also check out his two excellent books:

A Case for Amilennialism: Understanding the End Times

The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth about the Antichrist

 

[Jerome Rosana]

I am currently new to Reformed Theology. The church that I am currently attending here in the Philippines had the priviledged to have a skype session with Kim Riddlebarger. We discussed about this "Amillenialism", I came from a Wesleyan doctrine and it was different teaching about "rapture".

I second checking out Dr. Riddlebarger's work on Amilennialism. I found him most helpful regarding eschatology when I made the transition from dispensationalism to CT. You can listen to his series of lectures on Amilennialism here and also check out his two excellent books:

A Case for Amilennialism: Understanding the End Times

The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth about the Antichrist

Our pastor and some elders have a copy of the book of Kim Riddlebarger...haven't read it yet..they might lend it to me after they finished reading it.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

The "signs of the times" related to the coming of the Messiah. The carnal expectations of the Jews blinded them from seeing it. Regrettably, many who call themselves Christians also seek a carnal kingdom on earth and thereby fail to see the signs of the times, namely, the presence of the kingdom throughout this inter-adventual period. Tribulation and triumph are part of the presence of the kingdom throughout history.

Excellent observation, Rev. Winzer. I too have often marveled at the number of Christians who repeat the error of first century Judaism by expecting the kingdom to be an earthly institution.

 

[One Little Nail]

I'm now lost as to the timing and chronology of eschatological events. What I once thought was a clear outline of history has now become symbolic. I don't know much about the Amil view, but from what I do know, it makes sense to me. However, does it leave us with any signs to watch out for? Or could Christ return today? Will there even be a final Man of Sin so to speak?

there have been many signs fulfilled in the Historicist A-Mill prophetic view, you've got the papacy fulfilling the Antichrist prophecies of St Paul & St John, there has been the fulfillment of many of the book of Revelations signs during the New Testament age.
the fifth & sixth angels in Rev 9 sounding the fifth & sixth trumpets being fulfilled in the saracens & turks respectfully , and many such like prophecies see the following links for further information ;

Reading and Audio Section of the Historicism Research Foundation

Romanism and the Reformation from the standpoint of prophecy http://whitehorsemedia.com/docs/ROMANISM_AND_THE_REFORMATION.pdf

Revelation: A Panorama of the Gospel Age Revelation Commentary Directory

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Correction in my above post: that was 60+ sermons on Revelation, not Amillennialism.

I agree that Riddlebarger is good, and I especially like his, The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth about the Antichrist, as it ties many streams of prophetic revelation into one strand regarding the final manifestation of antichrist. I often recommend Wm Hendriksen (as noted above) and Dennis E. Johnson’s, Triumph of the Lamb: A Commentary on Revelation, which is an excellent examination of Revelation from an amil POV.

Much conventional Amil wisdom is that Revelation’s eschatology is – in your words, Josh – reduced to a view “of history [that] has now become symbolic”. Granted, there is much truth in this, but it is not true that there is nothing definable – discernable – event-wise as the end of the last days draws near. While recapitulating dynamics of the saints bearing witness, resulting in persecution, then in warning judgments, and finally destruction judgments – are depicted in gradually intensifying symbolic imagery throughout the NT church age – there are also, to my view, markers that refer to historical developments (I am thinking particularly of sorcerous drug use – marijuana, LSD, mescaline, mushrooms, and the other psychedelics – not to be confused with legit medicinal drugs!) occurring in end-time Babylon, “by [whose] sorceries were all nations deceived” (Rev 18:23).

I believe what can be discerned is the transformation of a headquarters nation of a global Babylonian empire into an antichristian beast state, and its complete destruction, the transfer of “beast” status to another political entity (the which had been the agent of God’s destroying Babylon) which will then proceed to war globally against the saints – which is the eschatological battle called Armageddon – and while the church is being fiercely and viciously persecuted the Saviour will return to avenge His beloved bride’s hurt and destroy the wicked, then to raise all to stand before Him in the great white throne judgment.

I have no time-line for this (they are fools who posit one), yet – as in Old Testament times – the mercy of our God forewarning us of impending major catastrophes that shall befall the saints along with others is shown to us, that we may “come out” (spiritually) from Babylon and walk close to Him, bearing witness against an intensifyingly evil age.

Much of what I have said above is in accord with the standard amil interpretation of the imagery in Revelation (and the details of 2 Thess 2); what is rarer is the specificity of IDing Babylon and the drug culture’s world-wide dissemination of itself in the ‘60s-‘80s of the previous century.

I think we might also expect to see preliminary judgments against this idolatry-spewing whore Babylon before its final demise. My most recent thoughts on these things are found in this paper, "The Fate of Babylon, a study in determining the identity and demise of Babylon in John’s Apocalypse". It is not for the faint-hearted, but then neither is this life as children of the Almighty God in an evil age of satanic giants!

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

It is always a wonder to me that the imaginations of men – followers of Christ included! – are so captivated by the Babylonian arts (the massive entertainment industry) and their high-tech depictions of humankind versus horrific and mighty monsters. On the one hand it is human nature to love tales of prowess and intelligence overcoming great odds, and on the other it seems many of our hearts and minds – our imaginations! – have not been captured by the high adventure of the gospel, i.e., the exploits, defeats, and spiritual realities of God’s children in the true story of the world.

Of course, they must be “captured” by faith – a faith that sees God at work, and the stakes involved as we wend our ways across the besieged planet to the City of gold and glory. Is anyone involved in a visionary adventure, or is it all hum-drum pedestrian religion?

 

[One Little Nail]

The Lord Jesus stated that we should look for His Coming & be prepared for it, it may happen in our life time it most probably won't, He did state as a general observation that as the days of Noah & as the days of Lot so shall be the Coming of The Lord so we should expect to see a general rise in lawlessness & sexual immorality in society precede The Coming of
The Lord.

 

[Peairtach]

Well if you're referring to the current state of things as being "lawless", that's not the first time that that has happened.

Since, for most people in history, our Lord's coming has been in the providence of death, which also cannot be predicted, and which also seals our destiny, our Lord's Second Advent partakes somewhat of the "already.......not yet".

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[One Little Nail]

Richard, I should have probably said what The Lord said in Matt 24:38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, that life was carrying on as normal,

though my memory was on The Old Testament which said that Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. & Gen 6:12-13 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. & for the earth is filled with violence through them;

and with Sodom Luke 17:28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; & Ezekiel 16:49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Yes lawlessness has always being around, but Jesus said that his coming would be in a time like Noah's & Lot's so that there would be a general rise in violence & sexual immorality, has there not been an increase in Apostate Protestant & western Nations of the sin of Sodom,

& affluence believe it or not just recently in our generation there are now more people in the world who are obese & overweight than who are malnourished, the first time in the history of the world, fullness of bread, so thats eating & drinking, done in excess

the abundance of Idleness have we not seen this occurring in the last century the vast increase in pleasure, leisure & recreation, we have so much professional sport, people travelling to & fro (from Daniel) holidaying & the sort, motion
pictures, T.V., musicians & actors & sportsmen paid millions to entertain the sheeple, abundant abuse of drugs, people
no longer have to spend most of their day scratching a living to survive,we fish for leisure not food! to much of a good thing

the same with violence, mankind has always been violent though in our day we have the weapons systems & capabilities
to shed so much more blood & to do so much more destruction, how many millions of souls were killed in the 20th Century
by wars & tyrants & despotic regimes, the ancient world would be astonished at these figures.

what of marrying & giving in marriage do we not also see such a pervasive abuse & excess of this divorces & remarriages
these things happening to excess.

all these things will continue to increase & call down upon themselves the wrath & vengeance of God,
we ought to look up as our redemption draws nigh.

and besides all these things from an Amill Historicist position we are in the time of the 7th Seventh Trumpet,
Rev 10:7 when the the mystery of God should be finished, also Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

for when the 7th trumpet sounds it shall consist of 7 vials of the wrath of God Rev chapter 16, the 6th vial has been poured out the river euphrates or ottoman empire has dried up & there is a resurgence of the papacy, being the 3 frog spirits,
when the 7th vial is poured out it is done, brother Rev 16:17, Armageddon shall occur or a worldwide supernatural deliverance of the church of God shall occur just like the 2 previous Old Testament supernatural deliverances , and great Babylon or Romanism comes in remembrance before God, Christ returns for His people we shall be caught up to be with Him forever & destroys the papal anti-Christ with the brightness of His coming, The End.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

He did state as a general observation that as the days of Noah & as the days of Lot so shall be the Coming of The Lord so we should expect to see a general rise in lawlessness & sexual immorality in society precede The Coming of
The Lord.

Or that simply they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Therefore it was "unexpected" or it was indicative of the wicked being crushed from the world....

 

[One Little Nail]

Yes no doubt it was unexpected , though I still maintain these things lawful in themselves were done in excess.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

Yes no doubt it was unexpected , though I still maintain these things lawful in themselves were done in excess.

so we should expect to see a general rise in lawlessness & sexual immorality in society precede The Coming of The Lord.

But do you think the context of this verse really carries the weight of increased wickedness, or is it in its context directly related to “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” It seems eisegetical to force further meaning of increased wickedness in the world.

Otherwise one could just get wild with it and imply that only 8 people will remain. Where is the hermeneutical rule for pressing this pessimism on a verse that in direct context is stating, you won’t know the time, nor will the Angels, just like in the days of Noah, the time was not known, then the wicked were taken away?

 

[One Little Nail]

Well were those days wicked in Noahs & Lots time, well of course & so shall it be when The Lord returns, by the way
Im not doing any date setting, just repeating what scripture says, you can draw your own conclusion, there was no
mention of an hour, day or year for that matter, we are entering the pouring out of the 7th vial though.

shouldn't that be 11 people you forgot to count Lot & his 2 incensous daughters.The Lord made the claim that the moral
climate would be similar, not the amount of people that get saved, if thats the case looks like you miss out & only my
family get saved the wicked in Noah's day had the testimony of his ark yet they rejected the sign.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

shouldn't that be 11 people you forgot to count Lot & his 2 incensous daughters.The Lord made the claim that the moral
climate would be similar, not the amount of people that get saved, if thats the case looks like you miss out & only my
family get saved the wicked in Noah's day had the testimony of his ark yet they rejected the sign.

I actually meant Noah, his Wife, his three Sons and their wives. Which should be 8.


I guess we are at an impass because when read the verse in context, It is speaking of the flood. I don't know where you get Lot and his daughters there. It's not what the text is talking about.

I do not see the context holding the weight of "volumn of wickedness." However I do see it directly dealing with event, knowledge of the timing of the event, and results of the event.

I will place the context, because we must be speaking of different things.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I see the context saying:
No man or angel knows the time.
Only the Father knows the time.
But as the Days of Noah were so shall the day be.
Then the definition of what is meant by the "Days of Noah"
People were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
Noah entered the Ark
The flood came
The wicked were taken from the earth
So also the coming of the Son of man be.

As you can see, there is nothing about Lot, or an emphasis on the increase of the wickedness, but instead on how sudden the day was, and the result of it was the removal of the wicked.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

I see now.. the harmon in Luke 17

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

But I still don't see a reference to an increase in wickedness as an emphasis, but on people doing the things of life which are emphasized.
drinking,
buying
selling,
planting
building
Then the event was sudden and unknown to them. They were removed from the earth.

 

[MW]

The times of Noah and Lot were pointed out because they manifested complete disregard for impending judgment. The parallel was not drawn in order to point out a particularly wicked generation in subsequent history. Every generation is marked by such wickedness. The apostles Paul (1 Thess 5) and Peter (2 Pet 3) applied it to their own generation.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

While I’m not in accord with Robert’s “Historic Amil”, I don’t think he’s stretching it when he equates “the days of Noe” with increasing evil, as the unexpectedness of the flood does not cancel out the proverbial wickedness of that time. It was because of the evil the flood came, and it is because of the evil of the last of the last days that the Lord shall return with vengeance. Earlier in Matt 24 it is written,

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” Matt 24:9-13).​

Then in verses 37-39, Jesus says,

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”​

I agree, the period of the last days – the entire NT age (cf. Heb 1:2) – is rife with evil (cf., Gal 1:4; 1 John 5:19; John 7:7; Eph 2:2), but the saying of Jesus in Matt 24:37 does refer to the days of Noah spoken of in Genesis 6:5, 11-13 where evil had increased to such an extent the only recourse was to destroy the human race save for the 8 of Noah. It is an additional factor – the sudden unexpectedness – of the judgment that is also a likeness between the two times.

It is not violating any hermeneutical rule to derive intensified evil at the end of the last days from the Noahic statements in Matt 24, nor, must I add, is it “pessimism” when it is derived from Scripture. Yes, I realize, there are schools of interpretation which call this view of intensified evil at the very end “pessimistic” and they tag that label onto the classic Amil as though there were another classic Amil view which says otherwise. The labels “pessimistic” and “optimistic” when tagged onto the Amillennial position are bogus categories which blur the clarity of classic Amillennialism.

Yes, amil’ers are indeed optimistic about the outcome of the final tribulation, as we know that the gold of the Lord shall be purified and fit for eternal glory; we count it privilege and honor to be accounted worthy to suffer loss and pain for the King; we know the true church will be as Paul said, “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us” (Rom 8:37), even in light of the sufferings of the immediately preceding verses.

What we are pessimistic about is the state of the societies of the world; we shall see the world taken by “strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thess 2:11), seeing that they all “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (v. 12). We are optimistic that the Lord shall call out all His elect – nary a one of His shall fail to come to Him – and then shall the end come.

So the labels are really meant to obscure the nuances of the Biblical truth, and I say, fie on them!

I do differ from Robert in his valiant defense of the Amil view in that I a) am not Historicist, and b) do not see the Papal bunch as the Antichrist, beast, and Babylon, but prefer – on Biblical warrant – the modern Amil take that these are other than Rome per se (though Rome is included in antichrist, and Babylon), and we shall be blind-sided if we exclude other manifestations from their proper prophetic Biblical places.

In my signature below, where is the link, Eschatology, can always be found posts and threads on a fuller exposition of my view of classic Amillennialism.

-----

P.S. I just noticed Rev Winzer’s comments added to the discussion. What he says is true, though this does not negate an intensification at the very end of what has been age-long. Rev Winzer and I have historically disagreed on this.