Amillenialism and the Signs of the times.

[MW]

I just noticed Rev Winzer’s comments added to the discussion. What he says is true, though this does not negate an intensification at the very end of what has been age-long.

But it does negate the misuse which is made of this text for providing impetus to the idea that this world is growing worse. And when all the texts which premils use for this idea have been properly interpreted according to the inaugurated eschatological scheme it will be seen that none of them prognosticate on actual conditions at the time of our Lord's second coming.

 

[earl40]

I just noticed Rev Winzer’s comments added to the discussion. What he says is true, though this does not negate an intensification at the very end of what has been age-long.

But it does negate the misuse which is made of this text for providing impetus to the idea that this world is growing worse. And when all the texts which premils use for this idea have been properly interpreted according to the inaugurated eschatological scheme it will be seen that none of them prognosticate on actual conditions at the time of our Lord's second coming.

Which is why we all should say "Come Lord Jesus" instead of "Who is the antichrist that is to come?".

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

This is my favorite book on the subject. Promise of the Future: Cornelis P. Venema: 9780851517933: Amazon.com: Books

There is a less technical book that was done that looks good also.

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Future...0719806&sr=1-1&keywords=Christ+and+the+future

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi Earl,

The strategies of war are not so easily set aside; it is common wisdom that we do well to learn of our enemy, while the religious come up with contrived dogmas and fancies.

In Proverbs 21:12, 21 it is written,

The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked:
but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness . . .

A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty,
and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.​

My dear brother Matthew, better man than I though you are, I would not have you on the watchtower in our time of peril.

“Texts the premils use” you say? You figure such are the grist for my mill? But then the whole issue between us is which view is it that is “properly interpreted according to the inaugurated eschatological scheme”! I find yours lacking, as you do mine, though mine is the main view of the contemporary Amil camp, and which I can defend, as you know.

I go after the premil to break down the false edifice they build which endangers many with false assurances – endangers their very eternal destinies! (Some I love are there.)

The blindness of some, even in the Reformed camp! A blind eye to evil amassing with clear intent, infernal strategies, and dark wisdom! But such is “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thess 2:7) Paul made known. Alas, few there are as “the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do” (1 Chron 12:32).

But the Captain of our warfare will see to it we do well in the days to come, for all those who are of His Spirit will rise to the evil occasion, whatever camp they are of, for “When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him” (Isa 59:19). And that standard is His word made alive by the Spirit of power who indwells us.

It’s no big deal that you constantly disagree with me on this; the LORD will do as He pleases, and no man shall stay His hand. He that keeps us is the Almighty. We shall triumph, even when death rattles his feeble sword. Pollyannaism shall disappear as a mist in the heat of day; false hope as a vain dream upon waking. Our sorry slumber shall not continue long.


Randy, I also much like Venema’s Promise of the Future.

 

[MW]

My dear brother Matthew, better man than I though you are, I would not have you on the watchtower in our time of peril.

I suppose, Steve, what you call a time of peril I call a time of patience, as I understand the Book of Revelation, which is the constant call of the saints from the beginning to the end. Thankfully Christ is on the watchtower and the kingdom is secure under His sovereign mediatorial rule.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Matthew, I like this Thos. Boston quote of yours,

“He does the will of God’s providence, that employs his interest, gifts, and abilities in his calling, moving in his own sphere prudently, constantly, and vigorously, as those in heaven do.”​

 

[One Little Nail]

I do differ from Robert in his valiant defense of the Amil view in that I a) am not Historicist, and b) do not see the Papal bunch as the Antichrist, beast, and Babylon, but prefer – on Biblical warrant – the modern Amil take that these are other than Rome per se (though Rome is included in antichrist, and Babylon), and we shall be blind-sided if we exclude other manifestations from their proper prophetic Biblical places.

Steve thanks for the encouraging word, though I would wish that God's people were all of the same mind.
Idon't exclude other manifestations of evil but find that a lot of these draw back to Rome & her agent provocateurs, the jesuits. the jesuits had their origins from the only non-outlawed knights templar group, these being the aragon templars.
Templarism is freemasonry, and anybody who has done any research on these institutions will know what evil they do, so jesuitism is templarism is masonry is illuminati which is jesuitism, & around we go.

While I’m not in accord with Robert’s “Historic Amil”, I don’t think he’s stretching it when he equates “the days of Noe” with increasing evil &
It is not violating any hermeneutical rule to derive intensified evil at the end of the last days from the Noahic statements in Matt 24.

Thanks again, I began my christian walk with the Assemblies of God, so embraced their premillennial dispensationalism for a while, when I began to embrace various aspects of the Reformed faith it was jettisoned, i did embrace Historicist Postmillennialism
for a while, but have moved to an Amill position. Ralph Woodrow's Great Prophecies of the Bible, initially helped me come to an understanding of Historicism, which had a consensus in the Reformed churches Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association

What we are pessimistic about is the state of the societies of the world; we shall see the world taken by “strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thess 2:11), seeing that they all “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (v. 12). We are optimistic that the Lord shall call out all His elect – nary a one of His shall fail to come to Him – and then shall the end come.

you see from the Historicist position, the strong delusion which Paul mentions is viewed from Paul's own day & not from a post reformation futurist position, the gospel went out into all the world from the time of the Apostles & spread as a great mustard tree,
then the great apostasy which Paul prophesied about would happen happened, eastern & western catholic churches fell away from the faith & worshiped demons, then the man of sin, the papacy took up residence in the Temple of God ie; the Church.
the strong delusion & the great falling away are talking about one & the same thing, Pastor Steve. Pastor Matthew, this has been Historically fulfilled in Church history, contrary to previous aspersions made that Historicist School can't agree on anything.

P.S. I just noticed Rev Winzer’s comments added to the discussion. What he says is true, though this does not negate an intensification at the very end of what has been age-long. Rev Winzer and I have historically disagreed on this.

My dear brother Matthew, better man than I though you are, I would not have you on the watchtower in our time of peril.

I suppose, Steve, what you call a time of peril I call a time of patience, as I understand the Book of Revelation, which is the constant call of the saints from the beginning to the end. Thankfully Christ is on the watchtower and the kingdom is secure under His sovereign mediatorial rule.

I would have both you gentlemen & Ministers of the Gospel in the Lord's Watchtower, despite the minor differences between you, nevertheless the Lord has called you both to be His Ministers & hath made you both His Watchmen.

This Forum is both a Confessional & Puritan faith forum, both these Witnesses advocated a Historicist Prophetical Scheme you 2 gentlemen would do well that "ye heed the more sure Word of Prophecy".

 

[earl40]

Hi Earl,

The strategies of war are not so easily set aside; it is common wisdom that we do well to learn of our enemy, while the religious come up with contrived dogmas and fancies.

In Proverbs 21:12, 21 it is written,

The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked:
but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness . . .

A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty,
and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.​

Hi Steve,

I try not to set aside the strategies of war the enemy employs. I realize that good times and bad shall come and go and I do not know when Our Lord shall come. This I know, I am looking forward to His arrival and not to an especially bad time that will precede His coming in the clouds with those who have fallen asleep in Him.

 

[pem]

I too went from dispensationalism to Covenant theology. I am now convinced (along with the Puritans of WCF)the papacy is Antichrist (and mohammed is False Prophet) . I cannot see anyone or thing that could pretend to be God on earth and fool so many folk as the papcy does. I also believe that Dispensationalism was hatched by the the demons that are Jesuits in order to deflect the fact that the papacy is indeed Biblical Antichrist. Who could ever discover Dispensationalism in the Bible without demonic help ? Plymouth Brethren ? JN Darby ? Scofield ? No way man could have discovered it alone . These are just my musings - thinking aloud

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello pem (you should get your signature in order),

When you said the antichrist is the papacy, and Mohammed the false prophet, how is it that Revelation 13:12 says of the false prophet (aka the beast from the earth) he “causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast”. Do you see Islam causing worship of the papacy?

Thanks for your exhortations, Robert. I will agree the papacy has yet some part to play in God’s plan, yet on this confessional board I am not bound to the 1647 WCF’s view, as the 1936 OPC/PCA Westminster Confession is also acceptable. And better, in that I am not looking through 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century lens at the world, but the Scripture is allowed to discern the times since then, including the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century. The LORD has allowed other players to move on the board of the world stage, and we are allowed to see them in their true visage, without the old view as blinders upon our eyes.

By the way, who do you say the false prophet / beast from the earth is?


Matthew, what you say about the watchtower sounds very spiritual, though I would not say “Christ is on the watchtower” but on the throne of omniscience, which is an infinitely higher station.

He has given it to men to be watchmen over His Israel in this phase of our pilgrimage.

 

[MW]

He has given it to men to be watchmen over His Israel in this phase of our pilgrimage.

He has given it to men in relation to His church, and that watch is divided into smaller parts; it is not exercised over the world. Christ watches over the whole of His Church as the good Shepherd, and over the whole of the world as the Governor of the nations.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Come on, Matthew – I think you find needless fault. There is a huge difference between the Governor and His servant watchmen.

 

[Peairtach]

Robert

the gospel went out into all the world from the time of the Apostles & spread as a great mustard tree,

Since the mustard tree never has yet reached full development and flourishing, filling ALL the earth, there is still "everything to play for", dear friends, brothers and gentlemen.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Peairtach]

Pem

I too went from dispensationalism to Covenant theology. I am now convinced (along with the Puritans of WCF)the papacy is Antichrist (and mohammed is False Prophet) . I cannot see anyone or thing that could pretend to be God on earth and fool so many folk as the papcy does. I also believe that Dispensationalism was hatched by the the demons that are Jesuits in order to deflect the fact that the papacy is indeed Biblical Antichrist. Who could ever discover Dispensationalism in the Bible without demonic help ? Plymouth Brethren ? JN Darby ? Scofield ? No way man could have discovered it alone . These are just my musings - thinking aloud

The Beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Earth generally represent the twin dangers for the Church, (1) statist or state sponsored persecution and other forms of persecution from outwith the Church, and (2) false teaching within the visible Church. Muslim persecution of Christians would fall generally under the rubric of the Beast from the Sea, whereas antichrists and Antichrist ( those who set up an idol in the Visible Church, and the idols they set up) would include the Papacy as Antichrist, and all unorthodox forms or perversions of Christianity which are so erroneous that a false Christ and false Gospel is set up with a pretence to genuine Christianity.

"Antichrist" in the biblical context means " in the place of Christ" i.e. a false Christ/ Gospel, subtily or not so subtily placed in substitution of our glorious Lord and Saviour. In the context of the epistles of John the Apostle the antichrist being immediately addressed there is Christian or "Christian" Gnosticism.

I would recommend the reading of Patrick Fairbairn's "The Interpretation of Prophecy" (BoT) if you have the time or inclination to study this aspect of God's Word, further.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[One Little Nail]

Robert

the gospel went out into all the world from the time of the Apostles & spread as a great mustard tree,

Since the mustard tree never has yet reached full development and flourishing, filling ALL the earth, there is still "everything to play for", dear friends, brothers and gentlemen.

Richard, the following Scriptures from Romans & Colossians show that the Word of God went into the whole world as the Bible interprets it,

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world;

Yet the world rejected it & knew it not, because it lieth in wickedness

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

we are told to not love this same world 1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Remember Christ prayed not for the world, but for only those whom God gave Him John 17

These following 2 verses are speaking of the fallen, lost, sinful reprobate wicked who are Lustful & prideful, they will perish,

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

do not entertain false millennial hopes of the worlds redemption or the Church's triumph for it is not prophesied, I relinquished my postmillenniall delusions for Scriptural Historicist Amillennialism, only God's Elect remnant will be saved,
we are about to Prophetically enter into the seventh vial which brings about the end, Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying,
It is done. there is no space for a literal 1000 years between the 6th & 7th vials, 7 vials are all released upon the sounding of the 7th trumpet, so that when the last vial is poured out, it will usher in the Eternal Kingdom of God.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Peairtach]

The word "world" there is being used to indicate that the Gospel had gone furth of Judea and Samaria to the Gentile nations and impacted the Mediterranean world, but as we know, the Gospel had only begun to impact God's wide world at that stage. Even today, the leaven has not yet leavened the three measures of meal, but only partially In my humble opinion.

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[cmaglaughlin]

I've found "preterism" to be most interesting. If you've never heard of it, be prepared to be blown away...start here...Babu G. Ranganathan's Articles on Religion and Science: Second Coming of Christ Misunderstood (7th edition)

 

[Peairtach]

I've found "preterism" to be most interesting. If you've never heard of it, be prepared to be blown away...start here...Babu G. Ranganathan's Articles on Religion and Science: Second Coming of Christ Misunderstood (7th edition)

A recent preterist development is completely heretical, although it should be said that quite radical preterists such as Gentry are not "Hyperpreterists" or "Full Preterists" whose writings and websites should be avoided. They, puffed up with a wicked pride in their own "insights" into Scripure, teach that the Second Advent, Eschaton, Resurrection and Last judgment are past.

A number of scholars contributed to a book against this vile and contra-confessional nonsense called "When Shall These Things Be?" (P and R)

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[pem]

Hi Steve, sorry about my signature -i think its sorted now . As i said in my post , these are just musings but i do agree with original WCF concerning Antichrist & papacy . Mohammed is A false prophet not The false prophet so that was my typo error. There are many antichrists & many false prophets but at this moment in time papacy and islam fit the bill perfectly as the biggest two. If there is a Greater Antichrist than the papacy and a Greater false prophet than mohammed then Christ will not be returning for quite some time . I say this because it will take the best part of a thousand years before anything greater than those two entities comes along to fool and deceive the masses in the manner they are being so at this point in time to replace them. Like Calvin , i dont look too much into the Book of Revelation as its a difficult study to make concrete statements about ..................Bye the way, i dont know much about this 1936 Westminister confession . Has it got anything to do with the liberalism that J Gresham Machen warned about in the 1930's ? Or the Auburn liberalism Gordon C Clark talks about in his Westminster Confession study book ? I agree with Machen & Clark that theological liberalism is not Christianity but a false gospel . Please excuse my ignorance regarding American Presbyterianism but for an Englishman its a minefield .

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi pem!

Actually it was Machen (along with Ned Stonehouse and another) who recommended the changes to the Second General Assembly of the OPC in Nov 1936, and which constitute the form of the WCF used by the OPC and PCA presently.

 

[One Little Nail]

The Beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Earth generally represent the twin dangers for the Church, (1) statist or state sponsored persecution and other forms of persecution from outwith the Church, and (2) false teaching within the visible Church. Muslim persecution of Christians would fall generally under the rubric of the Beast from the Sea, whereas antichrists and Antichrist ( those who set up an idol in the Visible Church, and the idols they set up) would include the Papacy as Antichrist, and all unorthodox forms or perversions of Christianity which are so erroneous that a false Christ and false Gospel is set up with a pretence to genuine Christianity.

"Antichrist" in the biblical context means " in the place of Christ" i.e. a false Christ/ Gospel, subtily or not so subtily placed in substitution of our glorious Lord and Saviour. In the context of the epistles of John the Apostle the antichrist being immediately addressed there is Christian or "Christian" Gnosticism.

Thanks for your exhortations, Robert. I will agree the papacy has yet some part to play in God’s plan, yet on this confessional board I am not bound to the 1647 WCF’s view, as the 1936 OPC/PCA Westminster Confession is also acceptable. And better, in that I am not looking through 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century lens at the world, but the Scripture is allowed to discern the times since then, including the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century. The LORD has allowed other players to move on the board of the world stage, and we are allowed to see them in their true visage, without the old view as blinders upon our eyes.

By the way, who do you say the false prophet / beast from the earth is?

Hi Steve, it's unfortunate that there is a bit of disunity in the Reformed world on these prophetic matters, Oh the Glorious past when the Reformed, Lutherans & Combined Protestant world were in harmonious agreement on the Papacy being that very
Son of Perdition & man of sin who was seated in the temple of God or that Antichrist, it was like the rich & fat oil running down Aaron's beard & like an awesome mighty army with banners standing at the ready for a fight!

its a great shame that the further we've moved away from the Glorious Reformation the more that professing Presbyterians have moved away from their blessed heritage, its Doctrines like Sola Scriptura in Worship, Establishmentarianism, or Historicism
amongst others, these are defections & apostasies from Reformation attainments & should be lamented, what people may see as a 17th Century lens are really just better & truer interpretations of scripture.

Now Brother to answer your question on, who do you say the false prophet / beast from the earth is? I've deliberately put Richards "spiritual interpretation" quote up that it may be contrasted with a Historicist Interpretation.

I take it that the quote your referring to is;

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

To be continued...

 

[pem]

Hi pem!

Actually it was Machen (along with Ned Stonehouse and another) who recommended the changes to the Second General Assembly of the OPC in Nov 1936, and which constitute the form of the WCF used by the OPC and PCA presently.

What sort of changes were they ? And why did they change ? did they have more knowledge than the men who drafted the original ?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

pem, this is from the Preface to the Orthodox Presbyterian Church's WCF:

In June 1936, the First General Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (called the Presbyterian Church of America until 1939) met to constitute a new denomination as the spiritual heir of the old Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A, which had fallen under modernist control. It elected a Committee on the Constitution and charged it to "present for adoption to the General Assembly meeting in the autumn of 1936 the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms as the confession of the faith of this church." The Committee was instructed to "take as the basis of its consideration the particular form of the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms which appears in the Constitution of the Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A., 1934 edition." The Committee was empowered to recommend the elimination (or retention) of changes to the Confession made in 1903, but to recommend no other changes to "that form of these Standards."

Accordingly, the Committee on the Constitution (consisting of Ned B. Stonehouse [chairman], J. Gresham Machen [ex officio], and Murray Forst Thompson) recommended to the Second General Assembly, meeting in November 1936, that the Confession of Faith and Catechisms be adopted "in the form which they possessed" before the revisions of 1903 (including the Declaratory Statement) were introduced, with two exceptions. The Committee recommended that the change in chapter 22.3 and the removal of the reference to the pope as the Antichrist (but not the other changes) in chapter 25.6 be retained. The Assembly adopted these recommendations. It also rejected a proposal to append a declaratory statement to the Confession that would have declared premillennialism to be consistent with the church standards.​

[end quote]

This is not to say they did not think the pope an antichrist, just not the antichrist.

------

This is from OPC minister G.I. Williamson writing in The Ordained Servant:

“In our earlier history, as I understand it, we Presbyterians had a similar concept and conviction. Let me give two examples: (1) the original text of the WCF 25.6 said:​

“There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof: but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.​

“I hope that everyone who reads this will understand that I am in complete agreement with the first part of this section of the WCF. But I am also thankful that the part that I have underlined has been changed. I certainly believe that what the Scriptures say about the antichrist has a valid application to the false claims of the papacy. I also believe what 2 Thessalonians says about “the man of sin [or lawlessness]” can be applied—by the principle of analogy—against the papacy. But I do not believe (as the authors of the WCF did) that the papacy is what the Apostles Paul and John specifically intended us to understand their words to mean. I am therefore in complete agreement with the deletion of the underlined words in the OPC and PCA version.”​

In the interests of full disclosure I should say that G.I. does not believe in a "personal antichrist", but is more in line with the view of B.B. Warfield, who sees it as the spirit of the antichrist. Others of us appreciate the revision and do hold there is an actual man of sin, and antichrist.

-------

Robert, you said, “what people may see as a 17th Century lens are really just better & truer interpretations of scripture.” So you say. A lot of this just ends up as pointless wrangling, these arguments having been laid out many times.

My concern with these things is primarily pastoral, that souls be prepared for the times to come – which we should all be, of whatever camp, though I see many professing saints awash in the wine of Babylon and groggy from its draughts – so I will speak and publish. Indeed, there are exegetical and hermeneutic points of great importance as well – I think of Revelation and 2 Thessalonians 2, among other texts – but for those who want to stay with Rome as the prime villain of our present times, okay, suit yourselves, and call those who differ “apostatizing from Reformation attainments”, but some of us heed the call for the church to be “semper reformanda” (always Reforming), as well as under the rule of “sola Scriptura”, and if the secondary standards need minor adjusting (as the OPC and PCA have seen to), so be it. It is not profitable to be wrangling over our Confessions. There is very slight difference, and may we each strive to serve our King to the best of our understandings.

We shall all answer to Him upon His return, and we should remember the word, “My brethren, be not many masters [teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation [stricter judgment]” (James 3:1).

 

[One Little Nail]

The Beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Earth generally represent the twin dangers for the Church, (1) statist or state sponsored persecution and other forms of persecution from outwith the Church, and (2) false teaching within the visible Church. Muslim persecution of Christians would fall generally under the rubric of the Beast from the Sea, whereas antichrists and Antichrist ( those who set up an idol in the Visible Church, and the idols they set up) would include the Papacy as Antichrist, and all unorthodox forms or perversions of Christianity which are so erroneous that a false Christ and false Gospel is set up with a pretence to genuine Christianity.

"Antichrist" in the biblical context means " in the place of Christ" i.e. a false Christ/ Gospel, subtily or not so subtily placed in substitution of our glorious Lord and Saviour. In the context of the epistles of John the Apostle the antichrist being immediately addressed there is Christian or "Christian" Gnosticism.

By the way, who do you say the false prophet / beast from the earth is?

Now Brother to answer your question on, who do you say the false prophet / beast from the earth is? I've deliberately put Richards "spiritual interpretation" quote up that it may be contrasted with a Historicist Interpretation.

I take it that the quote your referring to is;

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

To be continued...


the beast John saw rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, is imperial pagan rome, or the first beast Rev 13:12.


the beast out of the earth is the roman church papal, as you can see it had an appearance that it was christian or as a lamb but really inwardly was a ravenous beast, as the histories well show. This beast,
which is also represented as a scarlet coloured whore church in Rev 17 & the false prophet in Rev 16, is also MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


it revives the imperial form of government, spoken of as one of the 7 heads of the beast that was wounded to death on the first beast. thus by re-establishing this form of roman government, it is said to have made
an image of the first slain beast come to life & revive that is his deadly wound was healed Rev 13:15. thus this image of the beast or imperial PAPAL roman beast is said to be the 8th head or mountain in Rev 17:11,
it is also the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, it shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition.


the angel in Rev 17 gives John an interpretation of what the 7 heads are on the scarlet coloured beast ,upon which the woman or scarlet coloured whore church sits upon, he says they are 7 mountains &
also 7 forms of government, we know that the city of rome was built on seven hills or mountains, rome was famous for this & also historically there were 7 forms or administrations of government in rome pagan,

interestedly enough there was also a hill just outside the bounds of the original city, an 8th hill if you will, this hill just happened to be called Mons Vaticanus, it were the vatican is located, so not only is rome papal
situated on an 8th mountain or hill, it is also the 8th form or administration of a revived roman beast, or the image of, thus fulfilling the angels interpretation in Rev 17:11 of an additional 8th mountain or hill.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. This is the 8th or image of the beast.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Robert,

Thanks for your answer, which is the standard historicist take during the Reformation era. It is better, in my view, than having Islam be the false prophet, which is, as I understand it, both a small beast and false prophet operating in Islamic lands (among others similar), and given by the Lord to trouble nations, including some in the West.

And I think your view on Rev 13 and 17 was standard during the Reformation as this certainly fit a lot of the Biblical criteria, as did 2 Thess 2 – though as type and not antitype.

Your conjecture that Papal Rome will re-establish the Roman [Empire] form of government is just that, conjecture without basis, save an old hermeneutic once rightly applied. This leads to problems when observing modern Europe – Papal Rome has so disgraced itself with various activities it has no reputation as it once had, such that it could persuade nations to do this or that. Everywhere the pope goes he causes offence, even though many common people are loyal to him.

Even from the beginning (the days when Revelation was written – 95 or so AD) Imperial Rome was the beast from the sea, while the beast from the land was comprised of those who promoted the worship of the Caesars and the Roman State, and the indigenous cultic deities of the pagans in Asia Minor (where John was stationed, as were the 7 churches to which he wrote); however, as per the “modified idealist” (or eclectic) Amillennial view, the second beast / false prophet also represented all the false teachers and teachings of religion and philosophy to emerge up through the NT church age. Limiting this 2nd beast to Papal Rome blinds the vision Scripture is meant to give us.

No longer can Revelation 17:18 be said to depict Rome, Imperial or Papal: “And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”

There is truth in equating – at least partly – the false prophet with Babylon; the latter may well be said, speaking generically, to represent all the cultures of the world in opposition to God; this includes their economies, entertainments, philosophies, religions, legal systems, etc. This world culture against God and His people may, however, be said to have a headquarters nation, as was the case with Chaldean Babylon and the Imperial Roman Empire.

It is very likely that Papal Rome has some further evil part to play in world events (besides capturing millions of souls in its false doctrines), but I hardly think it shall be on the scale where it reigns over the kings of the earth.

Papal Rome is the villain many Christians love to hate – even Dispensationalists – and this also, in my view, is part of the great deception holding many even in the church.

The evil you now see creeping out of the shadows of once-hidden abominations and into the public square, even into the very laws of nations – down under as well as elsewhere in the West – is world-wide whore Babylon who rides the beast, that is, the state with its power of the sword, and the two of them shall drink the blood of the saints when the time is right and God fires up the furnace which purifies the gold.

For sure Papal Rome is part of Babylon, but the greater is – or shall be – more fearsome than Rome ever was.

We’ve compared our two views, and I don’t care to get into an extended discussion debating it, if that’s alright with you.

 

[Peairtach]

Robert,

Quintessentially , the Beast from the Earth/False Prophet is the Papacy, but by the very symbolical nature and genius of the Book of Revelation, which is able to include within a symbol a lot of meaning, I would say that we should in addition think more broadly than the Papacy.

Were there, for instance, no false prophets/antichrists and those in and from the Church who may have taught false doctrine such that the Gospel was overturned, and advocated compromise with persecutory civil power and worldly power in John's day (first century) ?

 

[One Little Nail]

Your conjecture that Papal Rome will re-establish the Roman [Empire] form of government is just that, conjecture without basis, save an old hermeneutic once rightly applied. This leads to problems when observing modern Europe – Papal Rome has so disgraced itself with various activities it has no reputation as it once had, such that it could persuade nations to do this or that. Everywhere the pope goes he causes offence, even though many common people are loyal to him.

Actually I should of said that it was my belief that this is what was done in the past, though its power has diminished greatly since the Reformation, thanks be to God, & will be destroyed with everything that offends at the Lords coming.

We’ve compared our two views, and I don’t care to get into an extended discussion debating it, if that’s alright with you.

Thanks Steve that's fine with me

 

[Sovereign Grace]

I've found "preterism" to be most interesting. If you've never heard of it, be prepared to be blown away...start here...Babu G. Ranganathan's Articles on Religion and Science: Second Coming of Christ Misunderstood (7th edition)

Preterism....I am talking solely about full-preterism...UGH!!! That system takes away the second coming of Jesus Christ and our bodily resurrection away from us...seeing He "supposedly" came back in AD 70. No resurrection for us, no Blessed Hope! Avoid that system like the plague.

I am an Amil partial-preterist....some things were fulfilled, yet others, especially Christ's glorious return hasn't.

 

[One Little Nail]

Robert,

Quintessentially , the Beast from the Earth/False Prophet is the Papacy, but by the very symbolical nature and genius of the Book of Revelation, which is able to include within a symbol a lot of meaning, I would say that we should in addition think more broadly than the Papacy.

Richard I wouldn't say that Quintessentially , the Beast from the Earth/False Prophet is the Papacy, I would say that it is the the Beast from the Earth/False Prophet also the image of the Beast from the sea , that is the sign has one interpretation & fulfillment , not a dual or multiple fulfillment in any sense which would make the Book of Revelation a book of guiding principles & not a book of Prophecy or Prophetic Imagery, Chap 13 of the Book of Revelation is a duplicate of Daniel Chap 7's Little Horn, that is the Beast from the Earth/False Prophet also the image of the Beast from the sea is the little Horn & vice versa.

Were there, for instance, no false prophets/antichrists and those in and from the Church who may have taught false doctrine such that the Gospel was overturned, and advocated compromise with persecutory civil power and worldly power in John's day (first century) ?

there were many & still are many False Prophets/Antichrists as well as Beasts, there is a difference between ''a'' False Prophets/Antichrists & Beasts & "The" Earth/False Prophet also the image of the Beast from the sea that Rev 13 & Dan 7 refer too, The Book of Revelations admits but One interpretation though, as does all Scriptural Prophecy, imagine the havoc this would reek if applied to the Messianic Prophesies , this is the reason that Post Christian Pharisaical Talmudic Judaism came up with there Mishradic multiple fulfillment of prophecy scheme to deny the Christians the use of them to prove Jesus is the Messiah.