Ammillenialism and the Mark of the Beast.

[Osnah]

Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.

This doesn't sound far off from what it was like in the early days of the church under Roman rule. Jesus' words to the churches in Revelation shows us how bad it was for the early church in that they were greatly influenced to not worship the true God.

Under Roman rule your rights could be taken away for not worshipping the Caesar. If you didn't participate in the practices of the trade guilds (temple prostitution, idol worship, and more), you could not work to support your family. I am sure that if you interviewed early Christians, they would say that what we are experiencing today so far is nothing like being beheaded, lit on fire, or mauled by animals as entertainment.

The idea of Revelation is that persecution always happens throughout history. It comes and goes in it's harshness towards Christians, but it is always present in some form. Can we say that what we are experiencing today with Covid and all that it entails is what Revelation is referring to? That remains to be seen. Those that are being 'persecuted' today for not being vaxxed are not all Christians. The vaccine is not the mark of the beast. Is the world working together in some way to take away human rights? That is quite possible so. But at the time of the early church the whole world as they knew it was persecuting Christians.

I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however.

If you are referring to Luke 12, Jesus is rebuking those that did not see the 'signs of the time' in that they were unable to discern from Scripture that the Messiah was on earth at that time. In verses 49-53 He tells His audience that He has come to 'divide' and not give peace on earth. In verses 54-56 Jesus rebukes them for knowing how to discern the weather, yet they were unable to discern that He was in fact the Messiah. They should have understood the "signs of the time" in the OT pointing to His arrival. He is saying that Scripture up to that point was pointing to Him. It was not referring to discerning the 'end of days' as we know it.

 

[jwithnell]

I would also appreciate a clear and unambiguous response to Andrew's question.

Moderating
Please keep discussions regarding covid and vaccinations in the coronavirus forum.

 

[Phil D.]

Moderating
Please keep discussions regarding covid and vaccinations in the coronavirus forum.

Honest question: Is this necessary even when the specific subject-matter has a predominantly theological/eschatological aspect to it?

 

[A.Joseph]

I must admit this seems to be quite an extreme position but we seem to be in a very extreme situation. Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.

You Aussies are in a bad way right now…

This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.

Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.

 

[A.Joseph]

P.S. I don’t think the vaccine is the mark of the beast. (I don’t think to keep getting boosted is a great idea).


I do think other control issues surrounding the way we view health (and other human priorities) is a genesis to something that is brining about an even greater physical and/or external divide of humanity.

 

[jwithnell]

Honest question: Is this necessary even when the specific subject-matter has a predominantly theological/eschatological aspect to it?

I appreciate this question. I had not intended to "single you out" and had missed that the quote did not pick up parts of the previous parts of the thread. In this case, we've been trying to keep people involved who might otherwise have disengaged because the covid/vax issues get so heated.

 

[pilgrimmum]

P.S. I don’t think the vaccine is the mark of the beast. (I don’t think to keep getting boosted is a great idea).
View attachment 8756

I do think other control issues surrounding the way we view health (and other human priorities) is a genesis to something that is brining about an even greater physical and/or external divide of humanity.

All well and good with the booster advice thanks but if you don't get the booster from now on here in Australia you're considered unvaxxed and continue to no access to your former job( this includes all workers of any profession).

 

[pilgrimmum]

You Aussies are in a bad way right now…

This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.

Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.

You Aussies are in a bad way right now…

This is difficult not to see. The (global) coordination that’s been in development in various forms most prominently for at least a century is blatant. Some of the major players I reckon want to see things swiftly develop and play out in their lifetime. I read somewhere that America, in particular, was officially sold out economically somewhere in the mid-90s, and now the benefactors and power brokers are coming to collect. I don’t know the exact spiritual ramifications (and our Great & Sovereign Lord may throw in some curve balls) but these realities are apparent. Covid is merely an excuse.

Thankfully, we can forget politics and recommit ourselves to the things that truly matter.

Just wondering if we as Christians are concerned about hundreds of thousands if not millions of our brethren in places like Australia and other nations where the Jab (refusal of) is forcing people out of employment. Do we just keep talking about the persecuted Christians in places like China, North Korea and Afghanistan but refuse to acknowledge the millions of vaccine injured and dead and now the jobless in these western countries? Are they worth less attention and concern because they live in a 'Western Nation' And once we have dismissed them with our theological framework do we continue to ignore their plight pleading we have 'more important matters' to attend to? This has eerily familiar overtones to a parable I know. The silence from the church is DEAFENING!

 

[Andrew35]

I appreciate this question. I had not intended to "single you out" and had missed that the quote did not pick up parts of the previous parts of the thread. In this case, we've been trying to keep people involved who might otherwise have disengaged because the covid/vax issues get so heated.

I did pick up on what was said earlier. I was just confused because the position seemed to waver back and forth and wanted to press for a bit of clarity.

I mean, the mark as presented in Revelation seems pretty binary to me: you either have it or you have the Father's seal on your forehead.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Revelations 20 describes the beginning of the Gospel Era where Satan is BOUND by a mighty Angel a 1000 yrs FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS.. This 1000 yrs symbolizes the reign of Jesus Christ on the earth from the time of His Resurrection and ascension and the spread of the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. I believe we are in the "SHORT SEASON" of Satan having been LOOSED and are now experiencing his satanic chaos in the world.

Preface:
There is an answer to all that I lament in what follows. You will be hearing more about it soon. But let me give you a hint. It's about God.
Ephesians 3:20

~~~~~~~

I am what most would call a Postmillennialist. But maybe that's splitting hairs. The only difference (I wish) between the Postmill and Amill camps is whether the Bible speaks of something yet future that is different or, is there is only one period described between the Ascension and the Second coming.

From my point of view, the belief that Satan is bound now is laughable. If what we have seen to date of Christ's dominion over the world is as good as it gets, then the claim of the increase of His Kingdom having no end has, well, ended.

A thumbnail view of the basis of my optimism for the future. I consider myself a 65 Book of the Bible Postmil. I don't understand much of the Revelation, but neither do you. And I can prove it. As long as there remain wildly different interpretations of Revelation 20, for example, it should demonstrate that the Book is still sealed in many respects. Let me ask you. What other book of the New Testament has as much divergence of viewpoints? Are there disputes about Justification by Faith? Over the past two thousand years, the Church has confessed many heresies out of the Church. It is no longer an issue whether or not the gentiles must be circumcised and keep the ritual laws of Moses. Previous to the Church council in Acts 15, the Judaizers were wrong in their views. But following the council, they were now considered heretics and subject to Church discipline. And thus goes the rest of the time until now when we can and should be dogmatic about many Gospel truths that were only points of disagreement in history. Are you aware that many of the early Church fathers would not be allowed to teach or preach, and in some cases, not accepted for church membership?

Now I grant that it is possible, though unlikely, that some individuals and groups may have stumbled on a true-ish interpretation of the Revelation. But even they must hold their view lightly and wait for the Church to give its agreed-upon view.

Be a little more humble, guys and gals, while we concentrate on the clearly revealed will of God and believe and work towards the development of the Great Commission.

Let me give my opinion. I believe that these modern negative forms of Amillineaism will someday be called heresy. Remember what God did to the spies and the 600,000 adults when they ceased to accept their "Great Commission."

Christ is often denominated as the Savior of the World, and the whole Bible is filled with prayers and prophesies that state that the Nations will flow into the Church.

Even if it is the end of time, where are we told to act differently towards our commander and chief? And what Greek philosophy have we accepted that somehow the spirit of man is so much more important than its outworking in the world of matter.

Below are some paragraphs from something I am working on.
~~~~~~~
Trivial Pursuit - It's Not a Game

You must have noticed that the commercial is almost always better than the product.

The restaurant's menu is filled with beautiful photographs of lovely dinners and luscious burgers. Don't they seem irresistible? So you are enticed to order one of those delicious-looking burgers. But when it is served, it never looks like the picture. But you knew that would be the case. We are just used to the advertisement being better than the product advertised. That's life.

Apologia: The sweeping generalization is a logical fallacy that I will attempt not to make. But I will speak very generally of what I have seen is commonly true among most professing Christians in our day. I know that some of you who do not fit this mold might disagree with what I say. Still, others who are lazy and worldly will make fun of what I say. But for the rest of you, and I include myself, listen- Please listen.

I want to speak generally of the day we are living in. In my fifty years of experience as a Christian, I have concluded that we are currently a pathetic bunch. I think the Church, at least the Church I'm familiar with in the United States, is operating at a level as far below normal as Pentecost was above normal. And we are used to it and don't really expect all that much more.

The way I see it, the Church is a joke in the eyes of the world. And don't make the mistake of thinking that it's persecution. We are weak, without strength, with little confidence in what the great King of Heaven and Earth may yet do in this world. You know who I mean, the one to whom all power and glory in heaven and on Earth have been given. One of the most significant signs of our times is the prevalence of a defeatist form of amillennialism. As if we somehow have to explain why nothing is really happening or improving in Christendom. We make apologies for King Jesus.

Christendom, that's a concept that, as far as I can tell, has no meaning in the present world in which we live. Many, even of the Reformed, don't believe we should hope and work for such a thing as Christendom. We not only have lost our hope in this world to see the glory of God, but we've adopted doctrines that explain why we shouldn't have much hope. I like to put it this way. From what the Bible teaches about the growth of the Kingdom of God on Earth from beginning to end, one could objectively conclude that Jesus is a pretty shoddy Savior of the World. That the commercial was far better than the product as advertised.
~~~~~~~
I just gotta run a passage or two from Jesus' prayer in John 17 about our future oneness of Christians.

John 17:11
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:20-23
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Many say, "Isn't the Spiritual oneness between true Christians a wonderful thing?"

What oneness? I see the exact opposite. We are not one. We are a pathetic mess. Jesus prayed that our oneness would be so evident that the world--the God-hating world--would be unable to deny that the Father sent the Son as Savior of the world.

FYI
Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on. According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, estimations show more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally. Feb 27, 2021

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I just gotta run a passage or two from Jesus' prayer in John 17 about our future oneness of Christians.

Yes! Ephesians 4:8-16. We are so privileged to pray for these glorious things.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Just wondering if we as Christians are concerned about hundreds of thousands if not millions of our brethren in places like Australia and other nations where the Jab (refusal of) is forcing people out of employment.

I think we sure can miss this. Those things are happening here in the US as well, but perhaps not as widely and egregiously as in Australia and other places.

And once we have dismissed them with our theological framework do we continue to ignore their plight pleading we have 'more important matters' to attend to? This has eerily familiar overtones to a parable I know. The silence from the church is DEAFENING!

I don’t think anyone is dismissing people’s suffering via a theological framework. The point I think rather is seeking to grasp God’s great promises and purposes in the midst of suffering, and praying to that end, including pleas for mercy.

Do you feel that the silence of the churches in Australia is deafening?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

I hope to keep this pithy. Back in John's day, the mark of the beast was figurative (G.K. Beale's view), the mark in the hand signifying the actions one takes in cooperation with the beast / ungodly state against Christ and His people, and the mark in the forehead the disposition of the mind to follow the beast thusly. Even though some slavers branded their slaves with a mark, the forbidden mark was a sign of idolatry God knew even if invisible to man.

It remains thus today. However – a big however! – while it is an invisible mark even today, the technology of today makes it possible to mark people, both willingly and unwillingly, for agreed compliance, and/or coerced/forced unwilling compliance and tracking.

As one who is highly alert to "beast-marking" – and who has been boosted – I am not marked by the beast, but sealed by God; seeing I have had respiratory illness (likely from earlier years of smoking), heart disease (now treated), and am nigh 80 years old, reckon it prudent to have been fully vaxed – otherwise how could I travel in the Lord's work and freely mingle with people while seeking to plant a church? Plus I am in the vulnerable category of those both aged and having "co-morbidities" which could send me into eternity sooner than later, unable to labor in the harvest.

The connection I see with the various and apparently ongoing covid vaccinations is that it is putting into place, under the guise of public health and safety, a high-tech government-controlled monitoring of people and their actions (and even emotions!) enhanced by AI, an exemplar of this being exhibited by China and the CCP. Author Kai Strittmatter, in his book, We Have Been Harmonized: Life in China's Surveillance State, does a good job showing how this happened / is happening there. On this side of the world the covid mandates and tracking/surveillance (smartphones being enlisted to aid this) it is being implemented as a public health matter – putting into place the same sort of government-controlled surveillance. Not just a "trial run" to get us used to it, but the actual technological groundwork for mass population control slowly being formed.

It is not the jab that is the mark of the beast, nor even the technology of surveillance, but what shall eventually be – in the name of public health and safety – allegiance to the beast state in its enforcement of sane, unbigoted, enlightened solidarity with humankind unfettered by the pathology and wickedness of the "hate-fostering" Bible, the Christ it promotes, and the Christians who adhere to both it and Him. We shall be outlawed, as will our King and His holy Law.

Those who will not comply with this universal mandate – by whatever means of compliance and attestation the state will require – will be unable to buy, sell, be licensed, able to rent, to enter premises, etc without the proper QR code or whatever technology will come up with signifying your adherence to the order of the state.

The antidote for Christ's people shall be His presence with us, "And they overcame him [the dragon] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death....And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:11, 17).

 

[Andrew35]

I hope to keep this pithy. Back in John's day, the mark of the beast was figurative (G.K. Beale's view), the mark in the hand signifying the actions one takes in cooperation with the beast / ungodly state against Christ and His people, and the mark in the forehead the disposition of the mind to follow the beast thusly. Even though some slavers branded their slaves with a mark, the forbidden mark was a sign of idolatry God knew even if invisible to man.

It remains thus today. However – a big however! – while it is an invisible mark even today, the technology of today makes it possible to mark people, both willingly and unwillingly, for agreed compliance, and/or coerced/forced unwilling compliance and tracking.

As one who is highly alert to "beast-marking" – and who has been boosted – I am not marked by the beast, but sealed by God; seeing I have had respiratory illness (likely from earlier years of smoking), heart disease (now treated), and am nigh 80 years old, reckon it prudent to have been fully vaxed – otherwise how could I travel in the Lord's work and freely mingle with people while seeking to plant a church? Plus I am in the vulnerable category of those both aged and having "co-morbidities" which could send me into eternity sooner than later, unable to labor in the harvest.

The connection I see with the various and apparently ongoing covid vaccinations is that it is putting into place, under the guise of public health and safety, a high-tech government-controlled monitoring of people and their actions (and even emotions!) enhanced by AI, an exemplar of this being exhibited by China and the CCP. Author Kai Strittmatter, in his book, We Have Been Harmonized: Life in China's Surveillance State, does a good job showing how this happened / is happening there. On this side of the world the covid mandates and tracking/surveillance (smartphones being enlisted to aid this) it is being implemented as a public health matter – putting into place the same sort of government-controlled surveillance. Not just a "trial run" to get us used to it, but the actual technological groundwork for mass population control slowly being formed.

It is not the jab that is the mark of the beast, nor even the technology of surveillance, but what shall eventually be – in the name of public health and safety – allegiance to the beast state in its enforcement of sane, unbigoted, enlightened solidarity with humankind unfettered by the pathology and wickedness of the "hate-fostering" Bible, the Christ it promotes, and the Christians who adhere to both it and Him. We shall be outlawed, as will our King and His holy Law.

Those who will not comply with this universal mandate – by whatever means of compliance and attestation the state will require – will be unable to buy, sell, be licensed, able to rent, to enter premises, etc without the proper QR code or whatever technology will come up with signifying your adherence to the order of the state.

The antidote for Christ's people shall be His presence with us, "And they overcame him [the dragon] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death....And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:11, 17).

I would say this describes my own position perfectly as well, and better than I could.