An argument against observing the Sabbath according to the sun's position

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Tim

Puritan Board Graduate
This just occurred to me.

Some advocate a sunset to sunset Sabbath observance, instead of midnight to midnight. The are also other views that are based on sunrise or sunset.

How would this be possible in the arctic? I am sure that there are believers in the Arctic regions. In the summer, you might get "trapped" in a Sabbath that lasts for weeks. In the winter, you might never have a Sabbath for several months.

Now, this would not have been a problem for those living before Christ, in the broad region we know as the Holy Land, since that is a mid-latitude area of the world. God's people were confined to that geographical area, so there would be no problem to observe a sunset to sunset practice.

Not so now. There are believers everywhere. To me, this supports midnight to midnight.
 
How does that support midnight to midnight? Why not 11:00 to 11:00? Or 2:36 to 2:36? The problem with a midnight to midnight observance is that there is no scriptural warrant for it. The scriptures do clearly teach that a day is to be observed from evening to evening though.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And there is clear command from God to keep the Sabbath from evening to evening.

Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

The people in those areas that you spoke of would need to choose an hour in the evening of the seventh day to observe until the same hour the first day.
 
This just occurred to me.

Some advocate a sunset to sunset Sabbath observance, instead of midnight to midnight. The are also other views that are based on sunrise or sunset.

How would this be possible in the arctic? I am sure that there are believers in the Arctic regions. In the summer, you might get "trapped" in a Sabbath that lasts for weeks. In the winter, you might never have a Sabbath for several months.

Yep that is the argument I posed on a previous thread on time to observe the sabbath
lots of good debate on it, you can check it out
 
How does that support midnight to midnight?

Logically speaking, my argument doesn't insist on a positive warrant for midnight to midnight. I'll grant that. What I am trying to do is show that in some areas of the world, it would not be possible to follow an observance based on the sun's position.

The problem with a midnight to midnight observance is that there is no scriptural warrant for it. The scriptures do clearly teach that a day is to be observed from evening to evening though.

There are other threads that provide extensive arguments for both sides. It is not my intention to re-examine such material here, only to show what I see to be a practical problem with sunset to sunset.

The people in those areas that you spoke of would need to choose an hour in the evening of the seventh day to observe until the same hour the first day.

Your suggestion that arctic people would have to pick a time when evening starts seems arbitrary and inconsistent with the practice based on the sun's position that you support. If we are free to choose our own Sabbath hours, then midnight to midnight is equally acceptable.
 
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I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.
 
hum...maybe just maybe our true sabbath rest is in Jesus according to Hebrews 4, and all the rest of the discussion is periferal???

However, as one who respects observing a day as predating the Mosaic law, it is not about the sun. Even in NJ it goes down before 5 in winter and maybe 3 hours later in summer. It is after dinner (or supper if you call the evening meal that) to after the same evening meal the next night. I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.
 
I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.

Eskimos eat whenever they can catch a fish or a seal or a whale.

But dawn o dusk would not apply to them or siberians and it hardly applies to me in Seattle in the winter it is dusk at 4:30 pm

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it. If we desire to enter the precursor rest to heaven we will do the time. Who ever would not like the Lord's day here will probably not enjoy heaven.

I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.
 
I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.

Eskimos eat whenever they can catch a fish or a seal or a whale.

But dawn o dusk would not apply to them or siberians and it hardly applies to me in Seattle in the winter it is dusk at 4:30 pm

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it. If we desire to enter the precursor rest to heaven we will do the time. Who ever would not like the Lord's day here will probably not enjoy heaven.

I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.

If you are a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, why are you sharing your ignorance with everyone? I want to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. I don't want to be led into a ditch by a blind person.
 
I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.

If you are a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, why are you sharing your ignorance with everyone? I want to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. I don't want to be led into a ditch by a blind person.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry to have bothered you. I meant that only as a qualifier to the statement just before it, comparing something in this life to heaven, about which I know so little to nothing.

I meant to use it as it was here used 2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? — I speak as a fool — I am more: NKJV

Please forgive me for this figure of speech.
 
I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it.

It is the desire of my heart to obey what God commands. If the Bible gives an answer to this specific question, I want to know it, so I can obey God.
 
I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

What?

What about today. Were they only to obey the 4th commandment back when it was given?

No, So God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.

Also consider shift workers who start work at 11 pm and get off at 7 am or who start at 3 pm and get off at 11 pm

Should no Christian take shift work even if they won't work the Lord's day should they not have 1 or 2 hours overlap.
 
I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

I think Paul would disagree with you. According to Romans 1, the moral law is written upon the hearts of all men. To deny this is, I think, a grave mistake.
 
I don't think you can make a good biblical argument that the terms "morning" or "evening" have anything to do with the suns position in the first place.
:2cents:
 
Why can't they refer to meals? People sleep and have breakfast, they have a midday meal, they have an evening meal. God designed us to get hungry 5-6 hours after the last meal. ( normal healthy meal that is, not cofffee and cake). Why can't it be based on either evening meal to evening meal, or wake up to wakeup?

God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.


makes sense to me.......
 
Then, to what do they refer?

When you start and finish your work for the day.

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:10:32 EST-----

Why can't they refer to meals? People sleep and have breakfast, they have a midday meal, they have an evening meal. God designed us to get hungry 5-6 hours after the last meal. ( normal healthy meal that is, not cofffee and cake). Why can't it be based on either evening meal to evening meal, or wake up to wakeup?

God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.


makes sense to me.......

I don't see where the bible refers them to meals. Only the start and stop of daily labor.
 
When you start and finish your work for the day.

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.
 
If you think your honoring the Sabbath day, at whatever time, let's just say within a particular 24-hour period on yoru Sunday, then is the Indian Christian in India in sin when you are honoring the sabbath while he finishes his work and goes to sleep?

Your Sunday is his Monday.

I greatly admire the devotion of men in history have given to their Sabbath observance. I haven't seen anything like it in our day. One clearest example of someone I greatly admire in this area is Thomas (Stonewall) Jackson. I have no doubt that that man honored the Sabbath day from a true conviction.

Debates as to times and dates and hours seem absurd to me. I am not convinced yet of a Christian Sabbath day observance. Most of what I seen from those who hold to one are petty arguments like this thread and endless worries about what can and cannot be done.

However, just reading about those like General Jackson and how they truly honored the Lord in their observance has helped keep my mind open to being wrong.

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honor the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.
 
So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.
 
Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honored the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

:scratch:

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.
 
If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----


It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?
 
You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.
 
I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----



Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

So then it is on topic. :lol:
 
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