An Interesting Movement - Reclaiming the Mainline Denominations

[John The Baptist]

Hey all, I came across this website. It's a movement to 'reclaim' the liberal mainline denominations through strengthening what conservative churches remain and letting the liberal churches die off.

Anyone heard of this? Give the website a quick tour and let me know what you think.

Home | Operation Reconquist

www.operationreconquista.com

 

[Sovereign Grace]

That’s a really good thing to do. It’s an uphill battle to say the least. I used to belong to a missionary Baptist church that’s in the ABC. It’s conservative in that they, and the churches in that association, do not ordain women, but other ABC churches in WVa do have female “pastors”. I’ve often wondered why they’ve stayed in the ABC.

 

[hammondjones]

You might be able to hijack a congregation, but without support at the presbytery level where would it go from there? PCUSA is fairly top-down for Presbyterianism. Better to vote with your feet.

 

[John The Baptist]

You might be able to hijack a congregation, but without support at the presbytery level where would it go from there? PCUSA is fairly top-down for Presbyterianism. Better to vote with your feet.

I think they’re hoping the liberal local bodies will not gain many new congregants, leaving only conservatives left for leadership. All this would be over a significant stretch of time.

They discourage people from joining liberal local bodies.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

I think they’re hoping the liberal local bodies will not gain many new congregants, leaving only conservatives left for leadership. All this would be over a significant stretch of time.

They discourage people from joining liberal local bodies.

Will they submit to the mandatory female elders?

 

[John The Baptist]

Will they submit to the mandatory female elders?

No idea, I am not a part of them.

They say on their website they do not take an organizational stand on that. They are more concerned about the ‘fundamentals of the faith (my paraphrase). They are committed to the ecumenical creeds and the five solas. The entire movement is made up of like 9 different denominations.

I think not taking a position on female eldership is ignoring it as the obvious bridge to liberalism. But that’s as a whole movement. Perhaps each denomination makes its own stance on the issue. For example, the conservative baptists may not ordain women but the ‘conservative’ Methodists might.

Each wrote its own 95 theses, none of which I have read.

 

[arapahoepark]

I have heard of it. Some Gen Z guy with no family (yeah I know I am one to talk) talked about it on Aaron Renn's podcast. He warms the pews in liberal churches to reclaim, largely their buildings.
I mention family because I would not want to train up my kids in a church like that.

 

[RamistThomist]

Is that Redeemed Zoomer's group? He has a lot of talent and zero maturity (in an objective sense). He's still a Barthian of sorts, though he knows enough Patristic theology to correct the worst aspects of Barthianism. He doesn't seem to understand that the PCUSA will fight to the death and burn every church in court before they give up their property. He honestly believes they will play fair.

 

[mpinckard]

My question with movements like this is, what is actually being reclaimed?

 

[dsanch1120]

I’ve listened to him a bit. R. Scott Clark mentioned him in the heidelcast recently as well.
I like the idea, but as someone interested in ministry in the future, I could not join a mainline church as I would be required to affirm unbiblical things. I think there’s a few steps of reformed before most reformed folks would be able to join and then a few steps after that before they would consider joining. But I respect the idea and I do hope it works out for all of them, God can revive these denominations and I think we all hope that he will.

 

[John The Baptist]

My question with movements like this is, what is actually being reclaimed?

They seem to want to reclaim the historic (read: mainline) denominations because of their contribution to society (in a practical sense such as seminaries and hospitals) and their connection with the past.

They seem to recognize the orthodoxy of the newer conservative denominations but do not want to abandon the institutions of the mainlines.

Is that Redeemed Zoomer's group? He has a lot of talent and zero maturity (in an objective sense). He's still a Barthian of sorts, though he knows enough Patristic theology to correct the worst aspects of Barthianism. He doesn't seem to understand that the PCUSA will fight to the death and burn every church in court before they give up their property. He honestly believes they will play fair.

Yes. Even though I don’t really know what being Barthian entails, when I first saw his stuff I thought “he sounds like he likes Barth.” Maybe it was all the kingdom stuff he mentions.

I find his absolute disdain for MacArthur to be quite hilarious.

Why do you think that about the PCUSA?

 

[mpinckard]

They seem to want to reclaim the historic (read: mainline) denominations because of their contribution to society (in a practical sense such as seminaries and hospitals) and their connection with the past.

They seem to recognize the orthodoxy of the newer conservative denominations but do not want to abandon the institutions of the mainlines.

I'm just not sure any of that is worth reclaiming. It feels like a big struggle for something that amounts to little more than a symbolic victory.

 

[Charles Johnson]

This sounds like if Elijah had joined the prophets of Baal instead of slaying them, in order to eventually inherit the deeds to their high places.

It sounds silly, doesn't it?

 

[dsanch1120]

This sounds like if Elijah had joined the prophets of Baal instead of slaying them, in order to eventually inherit the deeds to their high places.

It sounds silly, doesn't it?

I don’t think that’s an accurate portrayal at all. There is a benefit to institutions and church buildings. I imagine all of us have benefitted greatly from the old Princeton writers. Most of the denominations were once faithful and there are some (albeit few) who remain faithful in these denominations. I think there’s a lot of problems with the plans, but this is based on the idea of revival and renewal, which I see in scripture. I have my issues with the plan, but this is not a fair comparison.

 

[RamistThomist]

I told Redeemed Zoomer that I like pretty buildings, but it is more important to actually hear God's word than be in a pretty building where a trans priestess is catechizing your children while you are trying to reconquer it in ten years.

 

[John The Baptist]

I told Redeemed Zoomer that I like pretty buildings, but it is more important to actually hear God's word than be in a pretty building where a trans priestess is catechizing your children while you are trying to reconquer it in ten years.

That would certainly be the wrong approach, but I don’t think that’s their plan. He contends that there are some conservative churches left in these denominations and those will survive so strengthen and support those churches, not the libs. They are encouraging people to only join conservative local bodies, let the chaff dwindle and die. They even have a map with all the conservative churches, ranking them on their ‘conservativeness’

How that works with a top down denomination like PCUSA, I know not. Nonetheless, he’s not encouraging for that kind of ‘takeover,’ not one where they have to attend a horrendous local church waiting for it to die it.

This sounds like if Elijah had joined the prophets of Baal instead of slaying them, in order to eventually inherit the deeds to their high places.

It sounds silly, doesn't it?

I’m not rejecting your analogy, but this group would probably see themselves doing something similar to Elijah (without the slaying). I imagine they would see themselves as the 7000 whose God is keeping for himself and they are waiting it out and preparing for when the liberal local churches die out so they can eventually retake the denomination.

It certainly sounds like a difficult drawn out process.

 

[Solparvus]

I've not explored the site, so no comment on the plan as a whole.

I trust and hope that persistent prayer and fasting are part of their plan. There is no other way to reclaim the mainline denominations and thoroughly purge out the leaven except Christ through the Spirit. Neither Hezekiah nor Josiah needed to wait for the Old Guard to die off. Once the Spirit came, it was game over for those who wanted to continue in error. Nothing is impossible for the Lord.

Bless God that there are some godly minorities among these denominations. I have dear friends that attend one in the RCA, and they're the real thing from what I can see. May the Lord cause their influence to outpace their small status.

 

[Jake]

He seems to have a little respect for the ARP Church, which we're fairly unique (some of this we share with the RPCNA) in having existing a long time, never having been a part of the "mainline," having historic church buildings and institutions, and were at one point drifting to liberalism but have steered the ship. That being said, one important "step" we never took was to ordain female elders and pastors, which is hard to come back from.

That being said, he does seem to advocate for joining more evangelically minded churches within the mainline denominations. One issue is that he doesn't see female elders and pastors as a big deal in this, and many mainline churches require either accepting this or practicing it. The PC(USA) from what I understand is fairly "top-down" on this issue. That being said, some denominations allow more freedom on this point. The RCA for example has some conservative congregations and they have not imposed any beliefs on them, although participating the courts of the church presents challenges. This congregation in Grand Rapids of the RCA I understand has a philosophy of holding on as long as they can there: https://providencereformed.org/ Even the UCC, which has some of the most liberal theology of any of the mainline, gives more autonomy in some cases. The Calvin Synod of the UCC (the old Hungarian Reformed Church) is moderate to conservative from what I've heard, and they have sufficient autonomy to practice what they believe: https://calvinsynod.org/

 

[james123]

I've known of Zoomer for quite some time and he seems to be doing nothing but harm. When I spoke to him he basically admitted to having next to no theological knowledge, yet still thinks himself fit to teach (mainly using YouTube and Instagram). There are many serious issues with his theology, he is an ecumenist, an evolutionist, does not think people should leave churches over "female pastors", and pushes new converts to join denominations such as the PCUSA with the goal of reclaiming their buildings. He tends to misrepresent Presbyterianism too which has not been helpful in any way, and has been very critical of denominations such as the OPC.
The basis for this "Reconquista" idea is really just shallow appeals to tradition and aesthetics - there is no real depth or legitimate Scriptural reason behind it. Due to this shallow basis, many of his followers 'converted' to Eastern Orthodoxy when Zoomer lost to Jay Dyer in a debate - he of course sees no real issue with this. I think the whole matter is very foolish, all that this is accomplishing is boosting the numbers of apostate churches at the expense of new converts. I think 2 Chronicles 19:2 is very fitting to this whole situation.
There is also a fundamental flaw behind this idea. He thinks mainline churches and institutions should be reclaimed because they influence the culture. If this were true then that would be a legitimate reason to try and do so, but the reality is that we live in a post-Christian society where the mainline churches have no cultural influence whatsoever. Mainline denominations do not steer the culture, rather they are steered by the culture - that's the sole reason why they have people and money. His whole idea is very similar to Neo-Calvinism, and yet his is far less thought out.

 

[Solparvus]

This congregation in Grand Rapids of the RCA I understand has a philosophy of holding on as long as they can there: https://providencereformed.org/

I've been there. They're committed to the old paths. If anyone visits Grand Rapids I recommend them.

 

[John The Baptist]

That being said, one important "step" we never took was to ordain female elders and pastors, which is hard to come back from.

I think this is the biggest issue with this ‘movement.’ Female ordination seems to be THE gateway drug into liberalism. By ignoring/allowing room for that, full blown liberalism will always only be a few steps away. The exegesis/theological outlook which encourages female ordination is the same exegesis/theological outlook which accepts LGBTQ ordination, it seems.

 

[Ioannes]

Yeah this whole thing bothers me. Huge negatives- worshipping under people who condone sin and reject God’s word as inerrant. What are the positives again? Nice buildings and different letters in my denomination’s name? Seems like a blatant appeal to vanity over eternal truth.

 

[MyCrows]

I told Redeemed Zoomer that I like pretty buildings, but it is more important to actually hear God's word than be in a pretty building where a trans priestess is catechizing your children while you are trying to reconquer it in ten years.

If you can't say Amen, you got to say ouch.

This pretty much sums up the pros vs cons as far as I see them.

 

[iainduguid]

Without having studied the proposals in detail, there are two glaring flaws in the plan. First, as has been noted, in most cases the denomination centrally controls the buildings and would die rather than give them up. They also have the ability to tax local churches, so "conservative" congregations end up funding all manner of liberal causes. Second, the liberals control the ordination process, so there is zero prospect of anyone with a genuinely orthodox view of the Bible, or of the ordination of women (and likely these days with an orthodox view of homosexuality) getting ordained. Which means eventually conservative local churches, however successful, have to call a not particularly conservative pastor, or leave the denomination (without their building). If you want the pretty building, it's probably better to wait for the congregation to die out and hope they are willing to sell it to another church, rather than preferring to sell it to a casino, mosque, or carpet factory.

I wrestled with the issue as a candidate for ministry in the 1980's Church of Scotland. At that point, there were a significant number of conservative churches following the Reconquista plan. When I was turned down by the selection process as being obviously unsuitable for ministry, many of the conservative ministers told me it could have nothing to do with my opposition to women in ministry since "that wasn't allowed". Fast forward 35 years, and many of those churches have now left, in most cases without their buildings (and their pastor's pensions). I recognize that there are different questions to ask in leaving a denomination compared to joining a denomination - that's why I was willing to apply to the Church of Scotland in the first place. If you are a pastor in a more liberal denomination, I understand why you might feel called to stay and fight. But in my view, that's more of a rearguard action against overwhelming odds to try to protect a few sheep than a grand strategy with great hope of victory.

 

[MyCrows]

Also, how does this idea align with the Lord's rebuking and commending his church in Rev. Ch 2 and 3?

I understand trying to strengthen what remains, but I don't believe we are called to enter into the synagogues of Satan.

 

[Edward]

He doesn't seem to understand that the PCUSA will fight to the death and burn every church in court before they give up their property. He honestly believes they will play fair.

Not any more. In most cases they've figured out that they can do more with cash than they can a mostly empty building that they can't really afford to keep open. Bring a skilled negotiator to the table, and play 'Let's make a deal'.

As far as conservative churches in the mainline denominations, there aren't enough left to make this a strategy. The last tranche that left the PCUSA, and the folks that are leaving the UMC are leaving over the gay issue; they are otherwise generally comfortably liberal (probably more salvageable churches in the UMC than the other mainlines at this point, but they are leaving for a new denomination that isn't that conservative).

If you want to save a denomination from liberalism, target the PCA and its more woke presbyteries.

 

[Jake]

If you want to save a denomination from liberalism, target the PCA and its more woke presbyteries.

Do you think there is theological liberalism in the PCA?

 

[retroGRAD3]

I've known of Zoomer for quite some time and he seems to be doing nothing but harm. When I spoke to him he basically admitted to having next to no theological knowledge, yet still thinks himself fit to teach (mainly using YouTube and Instagram). There are many serious issues with his theology, he is an ecumenist, an evolutionist, does not think people should leave churches over "female pastors", and pushes new converts to join denominations such as the PCUSA with the goal of reclaiming their buildings. He tends to misrepresent Presbyterianism too which has not been helpful in any way, and has been very critical of denominations such as the OPC.
The basis for this "Reconquista" idea is really just shallow appeals to tradition and aesthetics - there is no real depth or legitimate Scriptural reason behind it. Due to this shallow basis, many of his followers 'converted' to Eastern Orthodoxy when Zoomer lost to Jay Dyer in a debate - he of course sees no real issue with this. I think the whole matter is very foolish, all that this is accomplishing is boosting the numbers of apostate churches at the expense of new converts. I think 2 Chronicles 19:2 is very fitting to this whole situation.
There is also a fundamental flaw behind this idea. He thinks mainline churches and institutions should be reclaimed because they influence the culture. If this were true then that would be a legitimate reason to try and do so, but the reality is that we live in a post-Christian society where the mainline churches have no cultural influence whatsoever. Mainline denominations do not steer the culture, rather they are steered by the culture - that's the sole reason why they have people and money. His whole idea is very similar to Neo-Calvinism, and yet his is far less thought out.

Agree with everything here. Zoomer has no business leading anything. As far as I can tell, he is most interested in being a YouTube celebrity. He will never mature in the faith without putting himself under a sound teacher. Also, as others have pointed out, he is a liberal himself.

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

That would certainly be the wrong approach, but I don’t think that’s their plan. He contends that there are some conservative churches left in these denominations and those will survive so strengthen and support those churches, not the libs. They are encouraging people to only join conservative local bodies, let the chaff dwindle and die. They even have a map with all the conservative churches, ranking them on their ‘conservativeness’

It is worth noting their definition of "conservative" is pretty broad... From what others have told me Redeemed Zoomer's own church was on the fence about putting up a pride flag at one point. I'm not saying that invalidates the whole idea, but I'd definitely be concerned about the level of compromise which would have to be involved. Early on in my journey into Presbyterianism, before I knew much, I worked at and was a member of a "conservative" PCUSA church. They were good folks, and many of them I'm sure are believers, but even now I think the level of compromise would be too high for me to be part of that body unless there were absolutely no other options.

I haven't listened to Redeemed Zoomer much but it seems to me like this whole project is based on a kind of wonky over-emphasis on a view of the covenant that sees any institution that calls itself Christian as part of the Church and therefore worthy of fighting to reclaim. Is that accurate?

 

[Hansseco]

"Female pastors​

We understand that the question of women's roles in church leadership is one of great controversy. Because we strive to be united in the common goal of returning the Mainline Churches to orthodoxy and we do not believe this is an essential issue of the faith, we intentionally do not take a stance one way or the other on the question of female pastors. We respect differing opinions on this issue as long as one's opinion is based on a faithful exegesis of Scripture rather than an imposition of one's own cultural ideals onto the church."

This tells me all I need to know. The only possible way to conclude women can become pastors is by imposing of "one's own cultural ideals onto the church". The issue of women teaching or being elders/pastors is the root from which affirming homosexuality springs. If you can take a clear statement like "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over men" and say the issue of female pastors is "controversial" then you are not taking the Bible seriously.

I have seen this in the denomination I am currently in which broke off from the RCA. They were also unwilling to take a stance on female pastors. It seems many miss the essential connection between the egalitarian position and the affirming position. The Church continues to take the stance that if many people--theologians, scholars, pastors--disagree on the interpretation of scripture, then both sides must stand on equal exegetical footing. Not so.