Animal Death in the New Creation

[au5t1n]

I think this falls under eschatology. On the current vegetarian thread, A Mere Housewife brought up this issue:

I've often wondered about Christ eating fish in His glorified body, and what that means about animal death etc. in the new creation, but that is probably a different thread.

I have the same question about this verse:

Is. 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

So let's talk about animal death in the new creation. Yea or nay?

For the sake of full disclosure, I believe there was no animal death prior to Adam's Fall, though I know some here disagree. We can talk about the implications of that as it affects animal death in the new creation, but the latter is what I'm primarily concerned with.

 

[Kevin]

Yes, there will be animal death in the new creation. Eating only herbs is a sign of spiritual weakness and immaturity (cf Paul). In the final state we will be mature in every sense, we will be like Him, and thus we will enjoy all of the things that God calls blessings. This includes meat.

(for this, and all other blessings, make us truely greatful. Amen)

 

[au5t1n]

Yes, there will be animal death in the new creation. Eating only herbs is a sign of spiritual weakness and immaturity (cf Paul). In the final state we will be mature in every sense, we will be like Him, and thus we will enjoy all of the things that God calls blessings. This includes meat.

(for this, and all other blessings, make us truely greatful. Amen)

I agree that eating only herbs for spiritual reasons is a sign of spiritual weakness in this life, but aren't there theological and biblical issues with death still existing in eternity?

 

[Michael]

Death came into the world by sin. There will be no more death in a sinless creation.

 

[au5t1n]

Death came into the world by sin. There will be no more death in a sinless creation.

That is what I think too, but what do you make of Isaiah 25:6?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Quite frankly, I would be a tad dissappointed to never again get to enjoy a good steak dinner.

 

[au5t1n]

Quite frankly, I would be a tad dissappointed to never again get to enjoy a good steak dinner.

I don't like steak (I know, I know - I should be ashamed to call myself a Texan), but I would miss the shrimp.

 

[Andres]

as much as I LOVE my meat, especially steak (shame on you Austin!), i can promise you gentleman you will not miss anything when you are in the presence of the King forever worshipping Him.

 

[Michael]

That is what I think too, but what do you make of Isaiah 25:6?

I think it is as symbolic as the verse before it and the two after it.

 

[TimV]

I don't like steak (I know, I know - I should be ashamed to call myself a Texan), but I would miss the shrimp.

Shrimp and marrow are both unclean, so whatever we have in store, at least in the OT a reference to marrow would have to have been understood symbolically. Still, the question of Christ eating in His resurrected state is interesting.

 

[Peairtach]

I think this whole topic is thoroughly mysterious, as is the exact nature of our "spiritual bodies" in the New Heavens and New Earth.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (I Cor 15:44, ESV)

What is a spirtual body?

When Christ ate the fish He wasn't in His glorified state, although presumably He had a spiritual body.

The Old Heavens and Earth were corruptible, i.e. capable of corruption when and if Man sinned.

The New Heavens and New Earth are incorruptible, i.e. incapable of corruption, because a Man i.e. Christ has ensured that no-one in them will ever sin again.

In our world things - including fish - become decayed and corrupt once dead. Many would say that animals (and plants?) are subject to frustration by death.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Rom 8:20-21, ESV).

I certainly would miss my meat, but we already know that the married will have to do without their spouses.

 

[Kevin]

Death came into the world by sin. There will be no more death in a sinless creation.

I am not a (ken) Hamite.

Death is a natural part of creation and must exist prior ro rhe fall. Or else how do plants reproduce, unless the seed falls to the ground and DIES? The focus of Genesis is Mankind and primarily spiritual death. Physical human death is secondary. (or else why did spiritual death take place "right away", & physical death was delayed for centuries?)

Although no human died prior to the fall, certainly if Adam & Eve were "truely alive" then they expirience death on the cellular level. The hyper-creationists (hamites) prove far too much, in my opinion.

 

[Peairtach]

I don't like steak (I know, I know - I should be ashamed to call myself a Texan), but I would miss the shrimp.

Shrimp and marrow are both unclean, so whatever we have in store, at least in the OT a reference to marrow would have to have been understood symbolically. Still, the question of Christ eating in His resurrected state is interesting.

We know that blood and certain portions(?) of fat were forbidden. But was marrow forbidden, or was that an example of a Rabbinical addition?

My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips: (Psalm 63:5, KJV)

Is the above quotation correct with respect to "marrow"? Was "marrow" forbidden in the Levitical laws?

 

[Peairtach]

Kevin

Although no human died prior to the fall, certainly if Adam & Eve were "truely alive" then they expirience death on the cellular level. The hyper-creationists (hamites) prove far too much, in my opinion.

Do you believe Man would have physically died anyway if he hadn't have sinned, I assume not, or been translated into the incorruptible eschatalogical world without death?

These "deaths" at a cellular level, are they distressing or "good" for Man/animals/plants? Do the Hamites deny that such cellular death happened and/or believe that God made some other provision to avoid it?

 

[Dearly Bought]

Death came into the world by sin. There will be no more death in a sinless creation.

I am not a (ken) Hamite.

Death is a natural part of creation and must exist prior ro rhe fall. Or else how do plants reproduce, unless the seed falls to the ground and DIES? The focus of Genesis is Mankind and primarily spiritual death. Physical human death is secondary. (or else why did spiritual death take place "right away", & physical death was delayed for centuries?)

Although no human died prior to the fall, certainly if Adam & Eve were "truely alive" then they expirience death on the cellular level. The hyper-creationists (hamites) prove far too much, in my opinion.

If you are referring the convictions of Ken Ham and the Answers in Genesis ministry, I suggest that you investigate their views further that you might honestly and accurately represent them. Here's my brief synopsis:

The Bible never refers to plant life as nephesh chayyah, living creatures. There is no indication that Scripture views plants as truly "alive" that they might experience "death." Likewise, cellular death is not akin to the death of an entire living creature.​

Furthermore, I really have trouble understanding the isolation of "spiritual" death from the death of our physical bodies. It gives the appearance of a strange form of Gnosticism. The fact that the wicked are resurrected to judgment demonstrates that the curse of the Covenant of Works is felt in both body and soul.

 

[Skyler]

Of course there will be meat in the new heavens and earth; it will be genetically bred without the cow. We're already halfway there.

 

[au5t1n]

Eureka!

 

[WAWICRUZ]

What about the elimination of bodily wastes? Even if the consumption of meat was done away with in the New Earth, a meal of greens would still have to be digested, with its accompanying digestive byproduct. Could we assume the distastefulness of excreta as part of the Curse?

 

[Peairtach]

Could we assume the distastefulness of excreta as part of the Curse?

Was going to the lavatory part of the Curse? Sounds highly dubious.

 

[WAWICRUZ]

Could we assume the distastefulness of excreta as part of the Curse?

Was going to the lavatory part of the Curse? Sounds highly dubious.

You mean Adam's pre-Fall body and the eschatological glorified body both, respectively, had and will have inefficiencies in the digestive system?

Just throwing ideas around. Can't be dogmatic about these things. LOL.

 

[au5t1n]

To be honest, that is not a question I feel like I really need to know the answer to.

 

[Peairtach]

I'm not worried.

The original creation was "good" but not the best of all possible worlds.

In that context there was nothing wrong with Adam having to go to the lavatory. There was no disease and death associated with such functions and God's Providence was one for a perfect world in that context, a world "fit for purpose".

These things remind us we are part of the natural creation and yet our spiritual nature reminds us that we were created as the mediator, prophet, priest and king, between this natural creation and the Creator.

What the spiritual body will involve is beyond present understanding but God will provide the best for Christ and His people. We get some hints maybe with the accounts of Christ's resurrection. It's once again a bit mysterious that Jesus says that he has "flesh and bones" but our Apostle says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Possibly there is a difference between the risen body and the risen and glorified body? All things must be appropriate in their context in God's World.

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. (Lu 24:39-43, ESV)

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (I Cor 15:50-51, ESV)

No-one will be unhappy, discontented or uncomfortable with the New World and the Spiritual Body.

Were we capable of conceiving in our minds the things of this world when lying in our mother's womb? If God can think up all the good things of this world, can He not think up a superior world for His Son and His people?