Antichrist Named Time's "Person of the Year"

[earl40]

I'm interested to know why you think the Roman Church will last until the end of the world? Is that just a hunch because it has lasted so long, or because of something in Scripture?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

Well if one believes the RC "church" is the antichrist here is the depiction if the end of the line ......."7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[earl40]

If you're amil you have to agree with the Pope that the Roman Church is indefectible? That's a new one on me They should emphasise it more in books on amil eschatology, and they could receive the imprimatur of Pope Francis I suppose it ties in with the amil view that eschatology is so realised that nothing of any great significance or improvement is going to happen between now and the end of time.

I believe in realised eschatology too, but not static eschatology. The true Church has made great progress under Christ since eschatology was realised in the first century.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

For starters I do not recognize the RC church as a real or true church. So if they are around (I think they will be) the real church will be here, like the ones we attend, and their claims hold nothing over me so far as being around at the end of time since they are not a real church. I currently am a pessimistic amil that believes it will only get worse till Jesus comes.

This conversation you 2 have had is quite interesting, as I was previously a Historicist Post-Mill myself who has moved to an
Amill position so I can see where your both coming from.

I don't believe that the RC "church" is a church any longer having thought on that matter pre Trent it was the Catholic Church Apostate & post Trent having denied The Gospel & condemned it, it became the Catholic Church Reprobate, this would have implication with accepting their "baptism" pre Trent yes,post Trent not, just to veer off subject!

the problem I found was that in Rev 20 the word thousand is mentioned 6 times which tends to make you want lean to a
Post-Mill Interpretation & take it more literally though Revelation is a Symbolic Prophetic book so if you hold to it being
a symbolic thousand, despite the 6 references you will take the A-Mill position.

I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

does the Coming of The Lord here refer to a general Old Testament like coming in judgment, like Matt 24 which was fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 or does it refer to the actual Second Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ,our blessed Hope, if it is the former you will tend to a Post-Mill Interpretation if the latter you will be decisively A-Mill.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[earl40]

I don't believe that the RC "church" is a church any longer having thought on that matter pre Trent it was the Catholic Church Apostate & post Trent having denied The Gospel & condemned it, it became the Catholic Church Reprobate, this would have implication with accepting their "baptism" pre Trent yes,post Trent not, just to veer off subject!

 

[Peairtach]

I'm interested to know why you think the Roman Church will last until the end of the world? Is that just a hunch because it has lasted so long, or because of something in Scripture?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

Well if one believes the RC "church" is the antichrist here is the depiction if the end of the line ......."7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 20 is a somewhat difficult passage to be too dogmatic on, without going into detail on many other passages. Nevertheless, even just taking this without referring to other books of the Bible, I would tentatively hold that the "Beast from the Earth" (False Prophet) represents antichrists - false Christian teachers and false Christian teaching, including the Papacy as the Antichrist.

Notice then that the Beast (from the Sea) and the False Prophet have long before been already judged, when the Devil joins them after leading the world in general rebellion during the "little season".

So this passage would be no bar to the teaching, and indeed could be held to teach, the end of the Papacy long before the end of the age.

I'll get back on II Thessalonians 2:8 later, DV.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Stephen L Smith]

are you orange or green

My favourite colour is blue. The majority of my blood and my surname come from Scotland. St Andrews flag is blue so I will stick with that colour
I go to a Dutch Reformed church and love to tell my Dutch friends that Scotland, not the Netherlands is the land of the covenant

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Here is an African Reformed Baptist pastors take on Mandela:
A Letter from Kabwata: Nelson “Madiba” Mandela

 

[Free Christian]

Hi Stephen. My mother told me a while ago that her uncle many years ago was a Presbyterian minister in NZ. My family both sides were early Aussie settlers, both parents and grandparents born here. My fathers side came from Scotland and my mothers from the Isle of White.
Interesting letter/article that one. I suppose what matters ultimately in the end is if one is saved or not.

 

[Peairtach]

Robert

I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

does the Coming of The Lord here refer to a general Old Testament like coming in judgment, like Matt 24 which was fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 or does it refer to the actual Second Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ,our blessed Hope, if it is the former you will tend to a Post-Mill Interpretation if the latter you will be decisively A-Mill.

David Brown of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Critical and Explanatory Commentary fame, deals with II Thessalonians 2:8, in his book, "Christ's Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial?"

https://archive.org/details/christssecondco01browgoog

He deals with it in Part Three of his book, as the first in a series of objections to his postmillennial scheme, and this one he considers to be the most cogent. He devotes nine pages to the text, and those who are interested can read what he has to say.

His basic conclusion is that although the verse taken in isolation could refer to Christ's personal appearance at the end of time (or at the beginning of the pre-Millennium of Brown's particular concern), there is nothing which requires it to be so understood, and looking at in connection with other passages of Scripture points to a figurative reading of the verse.

"I do not say it cannot be [referring to Christ's Second Advent at the end of the age]. All I say is, I see nothing which imperatively requires us so to understand it."

 

[Stephen L Smith]

My mother told me a while ago that her uncle many years ago was a Presbyterian minister in NZ.

Hi. Do you know what church?

 

[One Little Nail]

Robert

I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

does the Coming of The Lord here refer to a general Old Testament like coming in judgment, like Matt 24 which was fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 or does it refer to the actual Second Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ,our blessed Hope, if it is the former you will tend to a Post-Mill Interpretation if the latter you will be decisively A-Mill.

David Brown of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Critical and Explanatory Commentary fame, deals with II Thessalonians 2:8, in his book, "Christ's Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial?"

https://archive.org/details/christssecondco01browgoog

He deals with it in Part Three of his book, as the first in a series of objections to his postmillennial scheme, and this one he considers to be the most cogent. He devotes nine pages to the text, and those who are interested can read what he has to say.

His basic conclusion is that although the verse taken in isolation could refer to Christ's personal appearance at the end of time (or at the beginning of the pre-Millennium of Brown's particular concern), there is nothing which requires it to be so understood, and looking at in connection with other passages of Scripture points to a figurative reading of the verse.

"I do not say it cannot be [referring to Christ's Second Advent at the end of the age]. All I say is, I see nothing which imperatively requires us so to understand it."

Richard it is a verse that can be taken at least 2 ways if you take, the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth as meaning the preaching of the Gospel, then shall destroy with the brightness of his coming could mean the Literal 2nd Coming of The Lord Jesus, which would mean it would be an A-Mill interpretation or his coming could be a distinct judgment event, like an Old Testament coming or a Matt 24 coming which occurred in AD70 if that is the correct interpretation then it favours a Post-Mill Advent, both are accepted Reformed views the latter more a Second Reformation position,
like I said I used to be Post but went A-Mill, doctrinally I leaned Post but say that The Holy Spirit Led me to a A-Mill position