Any vegans in here?

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ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
I'll give the OP a longer response since he is a believer and from what I can gather..not a troll. I can't say much for the Vegan presence online. I find them a menace due to their religiosity and coercive tendencies.

There is a treatment of animals that falls under the duty of stewardship and obedience to the Lord's Day. This doesn't demand abstinence from consuming animal product. Furthermore, less than ideal or even poor conditions of livestock are less important than the life and health to those unable to afford higher quality and more ethically (whatever definition) raised animals. Vegan activists have little to offer other than time and left-wing environmental activism to support their agenda. They certainly don't have science. Every human society since the the Fall, has been omnivore to some extent. I'll concede there are illnesses that make the digestion of animal product a challenge, even a debilitating challenge for some. However, there are few in that category and they require well planned supplementation.

I prefer grass-fed meat, free range chicken, hormone free pork, wild-caught fish, and raw dairy products yet finances and availability consistently push back against those options. Anything by farmer/rancher Joel Salatin is worth reading. He is a self-described Christian, Libertarian lunatic. What's not to like? :) Just google his name. Foolish and crony laws contribute to the high cost of this. Many of the reasons for the higher cost of this that are because of farm subsidies. Subsidies that encourage cheap grain to feed livestock that isn't designed for grain. Also, how many egg carton of 'free range hens' say 'vegetarian fed.' Hello! Birds require bugs as well as seeds. This omission leads to a horrible Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio in even free range chickens.

As far as hunting as concerned, I've did a lot of it. Mainly in my youth. I wouldn't mind doing so now but time and opportunities are hard to come by. I'm not of the 'hunting should be only for food' camp though it is wasteful not to eat what you kill or find someone who will.

We've known since the 1980s much of the foreign aid with food and money ends up in the hands of corrupt officials and wasted. That's why there is chronic starvation in those countries to begin with. The late Hugo Chavez and his successors have starved Venezuela. They ran out all of the producers. Not 'the West' or bad weather. Natural food disasters recover much quicker. It has to rain or stop raining sometime.

In conclusion I also believe in the industrial revolution and the division of labor. Farmers and ranchers are now able to raise enough food with 1/100 the manpower it took in past centuries. We can now transport food from more profitable areas to areas unable to grow and raise food. This is a win. Starvation is asymptotically approaching eradication in the West. Huge strides are being made in India and China as well. When the real cost of food has dropped so much and feeds so many people we should count it as a win when we start talking about what animals may think of it and a better life for them.
 
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Joshua

Administrator
Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?
I agree that meat is a gift from God, of which we may partake freely, the same as all His good gifts. I agree that we are responsible not to over-indulge in this free gift (or any of God's free gifts), but rather, acknowledge that they are to be received and enjoyed with thankfulness to God. I disagree that science (many times, falsely so-called) is the final answer to determine the morality of a thing, considering its fallibility in determining healthy, etc.

I am fine with folks having scruples as to what they will eat personally (why would I try to bind their conscience to eat meat?), but I am not okay with implying that eating of meat is immoral because, perhaps, at some point, an animal was poorly treated, or a person greedily profited. I am all for grassfed, free-range, gluten-free, cage-free, organic, yada yada yada stuff, but I am not decidedly and necessarily against eating grainfed, genetically modified, non-organic, gluten-full, high-fructose syrup containing food on moral grounds. In fact, budget and availability wise, that's usually the route I go.

Should we care for our beasts? Of course. Am I responsible to research every avenue of possible mistreatment of an animal before partaking of it? I do not believe so. May someone do that, and object to their own partaking in such an endeavor? Sure. May they judge me for not doing so? I don't think so. The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
The ingestion of meat isn't wrong, it isn't healthy but it isn't spiritually or scripterly wrong.
In fact, eating meat and saturated fats is better for u. Can I get a shout out to my pal, BACON? I have been paleo for 7 years. I work in the medical field and have access to all sorts of physicians. The school of thought has shifted 180 degrees. Whereas, the thinking was, more grains and veggies vs meat and saturated fats, has now digressed. The thinking is, we are all low on fat from low fat eating, been gorged with fake fats and vegetable oils to the degree where we all have a level of early alzheimers and the level of inflamation is the majority of the population is ridiculous.

7 years ago, I had htn. I was put on Norvasc. I was inflamed; my crp was off the charts-the docs I knew looked at me as if I was a circus act. As well, pre-diabetic; my triglycerides were greater than 700!

I went Paleo on the suggestion of a nephrologist I know. I am now his poster child. I lost 30 lbs-off blood pressure meds, my chemistry is within normal limits now. I only use good fats, coconut oil, avacado oil, grapessed oil. No grains to speak of except rice-I tolerate rice, just fine.

But yea, no, the thinking that meat and saturated fats is bad for you is old school; in fact google it! Ask the docs.

My paleo chain mail if interested: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bushey/my-paleo-chain-mail/10152273344660092/

 

LilyG

Puritan Board Freshman
Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?
Actually Bavinck thought most reformers were of the persuasion that meat was permitted even before the flood.
 

Edward

Puritanboard Commissioner
Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?
(Emphasis supplied)

No, count me out on that one.

"Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat."

Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) but it is not a strained reading to see Abel as a meat eater.
 

Joshua

Administrator
I also want to highlight the deadly plight that millions of field mice face year after year, as new gardens are plowed and prepped for vegetable crops. No warnings. No evacuations. No funerals or memorials. And probably no posthumous use of them for human consumption. Save the field mice!
 

Southern Presbyterian

Puritan Board Doctor
"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food."
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
I also want to highlight the deadly plight that millions of field mice face year after year, as new gardens are plowed and prepped for vegetable crops. No warnings. No evacuations. No funerals or memorials. And probably no posthumous use of them for human consumption. Save the field mice!
That's why you are a fruitarian no doubt? :)
 

Jake

Puritan Board Junior
In the old covenant, the Jews were not able to eat freely of the meats we do today (e.g., no pork) nor were they able to eat vegan (i.e., required to eat lamb at the passover). Now with freedom in Christ we can adopt both of these diets, among others.

I personally see no compelling reason to abstain from eating animal products. In fact, I think some of the most efficient ways to get protein as the earth's population increases will be from (farmed) fish and insects, once we get over the latter.

I think the more pressing problem in our day and age is gluttony before we even get to the problem of where to source our food. While I admit times for both feasting and fasting, in general we should eat in moderation to meet our body's energy needs and not beyond that. A lot of the problems we face would be solved by everyone eating less, as many of us (myself included in the past) tend to carry extra for the never-seem-to-be-coming lean times with us always.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
(Emphasis supplied)

No, count me out on that one.

"Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat."

Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) but it is not a strained reading to see Abel as a meat eater.
That's a good point. As well, weren't Adam and Eve clothed with skins after the fall? I doubt they would have just let the meat rot without putting it to use.
 

lynnie

Puritan Board Graduate
Just curious.....

Do you eat food grown on typical American mega agriculture farms, sprayed with glycophosphate and all sorts of other things? If not, and you eat organic, do you know how many sprays they use (a lot). Do you eat food that is grown only on composted ground with no soil depletion or do you eat food from farms relying on fertilizers and depleting the soil?

Do you eat anything at all grown in the midwest ( corn, soy, wheat) and irrigated by the rapidly shrinking Ogallala aquifer, contributing to the loss of family wells? How about anything at all from Central valley (99% of our almonds, walnuts, pistachios, strawberries and broccoli, 95% of canned tomatoes, and large percents of peppers, spinach, lettuce, and all sorts of produce and rice). If so, you are contributing to that shrinking aquifer and land subsistence , with encroaching salt water also threatening to destroy family and municipal wells. It takes a gallon of water to grow one little almond...do you drink almond milk?

Do you consume bananas, coffee, or tea, or chocolate? Have you studied the greed and corruption of the great plantations sending us those items, picked by impoverished workers with usually no human rights or health benefits?

You are either living on fresh air and sunshine, or you are part of the same fallen and corrupt system meat eaters are part of. Unless you grow all your own food with composted soil renewing techniques and no sprays, and water it with rain or from an abundant aquifer, you are part of the broken creation that groans and awaits our redemption. Personally I think you should repent of being so ignorant and go eat a hamburger.
 

py3ak

They're stalling and plotting against me
Staff member
Do you eat food grown on typical American mega agriculture farms.... Do you eat food that is grown only on composted ground with no soil depletion or do you eat food from farms relying on fertilizers and depleting the soil?

Do you eat anything at all grown in the midwest... How about anything at all from Central valley...
Since the original poster lives in Australia, it's possible that neither Iowa nor California contribute very much to his diet...
 

Reformed Roman

Puritan Board Freshman
While I really enjoyed reading this entire convo and discussion, I think it slightly hijacked the main point of the thread. Sounds like Josiah was looking to find some like minded people who are on similar diets and discuss them. Ended up being a huge debate on vegetarianism. Don't get me wrong, I find that the questions asked were very good questions and I appreciate some of the challenges, but something to consider :). I know my wife has felt terrible as of late. It seems every time she eats dairy it makes her feel sick, as well as anything with gluten. We of all people laughed a little when people were in a "gluten free fad" but she tried it as some said it would help and she has felt a million times better between cutting milk and gluten out.
 

Logan

Puritan Board Junior
Are you anti science?
I'm certain Edward is not. But as an engineer myself I take lots of things with a grain of salt. Examples abound, such as the American Heart Association, without any real studies, speaking out against eating fatty foods (because "everyone knows" they are bad). They may have inadvertently increased the number of deaths related to heart disease. Reference Scott's video link above and Gary Taubes work below.

http://garytaubes.com/vegetable-oils-francis-bacon-bing-crosby-and-the-american-heart-association/
 

Tyrese

Puritan Board Sophomore
I generally limit myself to wild game (hunted myself), beef, pork, poultry (an other fowls), and freshwater/seafood. Does that count?
I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?
 

Edward

Puritanboard Commissioner
Are you anti science?
I'm anti- fake science with doctored numbers.

I don't have much respect for hired gun scientists who rent themselves to the best paying lawyers. (Anti-smoking was a multi-billion dollar industry).
 

Edward

Puritanboard Commissioner
Since the original poster lives in Australia, it's possible that neither Iowa nor California contribute very much to his diet...
You made me look.

U.S. exports of agricultural products to Australia, our 20th largest agricultural export market, totaled $1.3 billion in 2016. Leading domestic export categories included pork and pork products, prepared food, fresh fruit, dairy products, and dog and cat food.
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/australia

He probably doesn't eat much of the cat and dog food, but we probably get him with fresh fruit.
 

Joshua

Administrator
I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?
Tyrese, I am sure there are, but I don't personally know of any. A cursory search for "learn to hunt Maryland" turned this up:

https://honest-food.net/want-to-learn-to-hunt-get-started-now/

Hunting is rewarding on two primary levels for me.

1. Attainment of meat, and enjoyment of thereafter.
2. Enjoying God's creation where I hunt (Arkansas), regardless if I "get" anything or not.
 

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
U.S. exports of agricultural products to Australia, our 20th largest agricultural export market, totaled $1.3 billion in 2016. Leading domestic export categories included pork and pork products, prepared food, fresh fruit, dairy products, and dog
I didn't know dog was one of our major agricultural products, much less a major export.

Josiah, is Asian food popular in Australia?
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?
You don't live too far away from us. Every November, some of our (male) church members along with members from a sister church (and guests) do a "rendezvous." It's Friday to Saturday and we target practice, hunt, eat and do Bible studies. PM me if you are interested!
 

lynnie

Puritan Board Graduate
Ruben, I'll stand by my general point. Australian farming is modern and westernized with soil depletion, chemical sprays, and aquifer depletion. It is happening all over the world. "The earth will wear out like a garment". Creation is groaning. It isn't just meat production, it is plant production as well.
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
Given that Peter was given all kinds of food to eat, including clean and unclean animals, I don't think it much matters when man starting eating meat.

Critical to this discussion: plenty of the world's population eats meat because the critters can live on marginal lands that cannot support grain farming. Goats and sheep can live where no grain would be produced. Parts of the American west run cattle on open range for at least part of their lives. We had a lot of acreage destroyed by people trying to implement Eastern-style farming on lands that really could only support cattle. I find the "eat plants so everyone can eat" argument specious.
 

Tyrese

Puritan Board Sophomore
You don't live too far away from us. Every November, some of our (male) church members along with members from a sister church (and guests) do a "rendezvous." It's Friday to Saturday and we target practice, hunt, eat and do Bible studies. PM me if you are interested!
Will do!
 
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