Apostasy and Perseverance of the Saints

[omniavanitas]

Hey, everyone. I've read a few old threads on here about the perseverance of the saints, but I have a few questions. So the idea is that if you're truly elect, you won't permanently apostatize, correct? It also means that the elect can fall into grave sin, yet recover. So would an example of this be Saul and David? Saul was anointed by God but ended up in ruin, yet David, despite his many sins, was still glorified in God. In the case of 1 Samuel 15:11, would we take this "God regretting" as a condescension for the sake of their understanding?

Since God's grace can overcome one's resistance to the faith, they weren't elect if they completely fall away from the faith? Would it be a case of God using the reprobate's apparent membership in the faithful for an ultimate good? Sort of like we see with Judas that ultimately results in the Resurrection?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Pomopu]

Another angle to look at perseverance (since honestly you have the answer to your questions in your questions) is this: What does it mean to be born again? I feel like the answer to that question must always conclude in the doctrine of the saints' perseverance.

Not having a doctrine of the perseverance also implies that the doctrine of justification is totally wrong. There'd have to be a caveat: Justified by faith**

** batteries not included; but this justification is subject to change, fade, shift, be lost, depending on the obedience or faith of said justified person; no returns after death of the aforementioned once justified person; the aforementioned once justified person may be totally damned to eternity, having once been justified by God; handle wisely. Contents may shift with time.

 

[omniavanitas]

Another angle to look at perseverance (since honestly you have the answer to your questions in your questions) is this: What does it mean to be born again? I feel like the answer to that question must always conclude in the doctrine of the saints' perseverance.

Not having a doctrine of the perseverance also implies that the doctrine of justification is totally wrong. There'd have to be a caveat: Justified by faith**

** batteries not included; but this justification is subject to change, fade, shift, be lost, depending on the obedience or faith of said justified person; no returns after death of the aforementioned once justified person; the aforementioned once justified person may be totally damned to eternity, having once been justified by God; handle wisely. Contents may shift with time.

Yeah, I realized that after reading the original post again lol.

It also seems to highlight original sin, especially as how it relates to our will. It seems the strawman argument against Reformed theology regarding free will just crumbles. We don't even have free will outside of God because we're so enslaved to sin that everything we do is influenced by it if we're not regenerated by God., right?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Welcome to Puritan Board, Pedro!

About 1 Samuel 15:11 NIV '84), “I am grieved that I have made Saul king...” — I like the nuance caught in that rendering. It was Joni Eareckson Tada who said, “God permits what he hates to achieve what he loves.”

The LORD knew what Saul would do when made king, but He had him appointed to that office so as to bring about the trying and "seasoning" of David. Saul was not an elect person.

As Logan said, you also answered your own question. Jesus said, in John 10:27-28 KJV, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish".

We elect may fail terribly, yet His wondrous fear keeps our hearts, and we love Him all the more for His forbearance and mercy.

 

[jwright82]

Another angle to look at perseverance (since honestly you have the answer to your questions in your questions) is this: What does it mean to be born again? I feel like the answer to that question must always conclude in the doctrine of the saints' perseverance.

Not having a doctrine of the perseverance also implies that the doctrine of justification is totally wrong. There'd have to be a caveat: Justified by faith**

** batteries not included; but this justification is subject to change, fade, shift, be lost, depending on the obedience or faith of said justified person; no returns after death of the aforementioned once justified person; the aforementioned once justified person may be totally damned to eternity, having once been justified by God; handle wisely. Contents may shift with time.

They always get you with the fine print.