Originally posted by DTK
Yes, elders were overseers,what does this prove? In an Episcopate a Bishop is an Elder,and a Priest is an Elder,one simply has been given more authority than the other. They are both overseers,so what is the point your making!!!
I am sorry that this is proving to be so difficult for you to see, but once again, I think that's an indication of how confused you are. What the example from Acts 20 proves is that all the elders at Ephesus were bishops, and the bishops were all elders. In other words, there is no basis for imagining that a bishop is a separate office, in which he presides over the other elders. Now, as I said in my post, stating it very carefully simply - this text and others in the New Testament prove that there was no Patriarchal office in the churches of the New Testament. Now, one must be very very confused indeed to miss that point which was made so carefully and clearly in my last post.
Moreover, you find no where in the New Testament any office for a priest. We are all priests before God, and as Chrysostom affirmed with other ECFs, we need no mediator with God apart from Christ.
What I find so amazing is this - You demonstrate yourself to be very unfamiliar with Holy Scripture. You give this pitch for "patristics and tradition" which you clearly haven't studied yourself. How can you in good conscience recommend a study of which you've never engaged yourself? When you understand so little of the New Testament Scriptures, why do you desire to move to a study of the patristics and traditions, the sources of which are far more difficult to ascertain and come by than the Scriptures? When over and over repeatedly, you demonstrate yourself to be uninformed on these matters, why recommend a discipline which you have yet to implement yourself? Do you not see, logically, how you have placed the cart before the horse, and how absurd such a recommendation appears?
It is clear that you do not understand the "ABCs" of the office, in which by your own testimony, you once served. Moreover, your confusion and frustration is showing when you ask me the obvious "what's your point?" Well, the points are clear. I think your responses are an indication that you don't know what to say, so you simply ask for the point to be repeated. Doesn't that give you cause to pause at your state of affairs?
Cheers,
DTK
Below is an Excerpt from Chrysostom,I am not sure why your trying to make a protestant out of him.I think He would disagree with you.
Treatise on the Priesthood (excerpt)
by St. John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407)
For the priestly office is indeed discharged on earth, but it ranks amongst heavenly ordinances; and very naturally so: for neither man, nor angel, nor archangel, nor any other created power, but the Paraclete Himself, instituted this vocation, and persuaded men while still abiding in the flesh to represent the ministry of angels. Wherefore the consecrated priest ought to be as pure as if he were standing in the heavens themselves in the midst of those powers. Fearful, indeed, and of most awful import, were the things which were used before the dispensation of grace, as the bells, the pomegranates, the stones on the breastplate and on the ephod, the girdle, the mitre, the long robe, the plate of gold, the holy of holies, the deep silence within. But if any one should examine the things which belong to the dispensation of grace, he will find that, small as they are, yet are they fearful and full of awe, and that what was spoken concerning the law is true in this case also, that "what has been made glorious hath no glory in this respect by reason of the glory which excelleth." For when thou seest the Lord sacrificed, and laid upon the altar, and the priest standing and praying over the victim, and all the worshippers empurpled with that precious blood, canst thou then think that thou art still amongst men, and standing upon the earth? Art thou not, on the contrary, straightway translated to Heaven, and casting out every carnal thought from the soul, dost thou not with disembodied spirit and pure reason contemplate the things which are in Heaven? Oh! what a marvel! what love of God to man! He who sitteth on high with the Father is at that hour held in the hands of all, and gives Himself to those who are willing to embrace and grasp Him. And this all do through the eyes of faith! Do these things seem to you fit to be despised, or such as to make it possible for any one to be uplifted against them?
Would you also learn from another miracle the exceeding sanctity of this office? Picture Elijah and the vast multitude standing around him, and the sacrifice laid upon the altar of stones, and all the rest of the people hushed into a deep silence while the prophet alone offers up prayer: then the sudden rush of fire from Heaven upon the sacrifice:--these are marvellous things, charged with terror. Now then pass from this scene to the rites which are celebrated in the present day; they are not only marvellous to behold, but transcendent in terror. There stands the priest, not bringing down fire from Heaven, but the Holy Spirit: and he makes prolonged supplication, not that some flame sent down from on high may consume the offerings, but that grace descending on the sacrifice may thereby enlighten the souls of all, and render them more refulgent than silver purified by fire. Who can despise this most awful mystery, unless he is stark mad and senseless? Or do you not know that no human soul could have endured that fire in the sacrifice, but all would have been utterly consumed, had not the assistance of God's grace been great.
For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, "Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?" What authority could be greater than this? "The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?"
But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son. For they have been conducted to this dignity as if they were already translated to Heaven, and had transcended human nature, and were released from the passions to which we are liable. Moreover, if a king should bestow this honor upon any of his subjects, authorizing him to cast into prison whom he pleased and to release them again, he becomes an object of envy and respect to all men; but he who has received from God an authority as much greater as heaven is more precious than earth, and souls more precious than bodies, seems to some to have received so small an honor that they are actually able to imagine that one of those who have been entrusted with these things will despise the gift. Away with such madness! For transparent madness it is to despise so great a dignity, without which it is not possible to obtain either our own salvation, or the good things which have been promised to us. For if no one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious?
You will find that He refers to this priesthood as an office.