"Apostolic Teams?"

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Bernard_Marx

Puritan Board Freshman
Recently I've come into contact with a church in the Toronto area that claims to be under a team of apostles through an informal Bible Study. Some of the folks my age at this Bible study invited me to come to their evening service, which I agreed to in light of the fact that there was no service at my church at the same time. Needless to say I wasn't impressed by what I witnessed there. All of the usual freakish charismatic stuff. However the sermon bothered me a lot. It was just the pastor (also an apostle) pointing the congregation to various passages in the Bible and applying them without any exegesis. After the servive was or, I attempted to make a B-line for the door but the pastor started talking to me. He told me "prophetically" that I need to stop "doing theology" and get a relationship with God. Needless to say this alarmed me.

But what he told me next frightened me. He told me that all churches are supposed to be under the authority of a team of apostles. I said there are no longer any, and provided the usual proofs. He then gave me a LITANY of scriptures apparantly indicating that there were apostles duirng the time of the church of acts that were not of the 12.

Here's my question: How am I to respond to this? I know that he's wrong, and he's teaching something that is potentially very dangerous. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Grace,

Tom
 
My wife has a relative from South Africa that is a missionary with this group. He is trying to plant a "church" in NC somewhere. Pretty wild stuff.

I'm speaking off the cuff here, but aren't apostles ones that were not only sent out directly by Christ, but they saw Christ in the flesh. Hence, Paul was an apostle by virtue of Christ's appearance to him on the Damascus road.
Also, Christ had other disciples than the 12. He sent out at least 70 before his ascension, and those would meet the criteria for apostle.

With those 2 criteria it's hard to see how there are modern day apostles. But in all my conversations with this relative it's been :banghead:
 
I have heard this nonsense too. I pointed out Acts 1:21-22, which I am sure you did as well. My speculation about Paul is that he had to continually defend his Apostleship because he wasn't one of the 12. As far as "other" Apostles, I challenged them to point out in Scripture where the title of Apostle was given to anyone or declared themselves Apostles other than the original 12, Matthias and Paul. Needless to say, there aren't any. Some argue for James and possibly Barnabas, but Scripture never actually identifies them as Apostles. I have even heard some argue for Apollos, but he isn't identified as an Apostle either. In fact Pricilla and Aquila had to pull him aside for further teaching.

This stuff reminds me of that movie "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall, where he went into the river, baptized himself and declared himself an Apostle.

I would recommend staying away from this group and get any of the people you know out of there ASAP. This is how cults suck people in.
 
wsw,

Thanks. But can you, or others, point me to any arguements that would enable me to show that the idea of continuing apostleship is not Biblical? There are some people I care about in there, so any advice would help.

Tom
 
[quote:9cb9c75c14][i:9cb9c75c14]Originally posted by Richard B. Davis[/i:9cb9c75c14]
wsw,

Thanks. But can you, or others, point me to any arguements that would enable me to show that the idea of continuing apostleship is not Biblical? There are some people I care about in there, so any advice would help.

Tom [/quote:9cb9c75c14]

I'll check out some sources but I would bet that if you could not make an argument using only Scripture, it would not convince them.

BTW, what do they think of the Pope? He claims Apostlic succession too.
 
Apostles were appointed by Christ:

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:


Eyewitness to the resurrected Christ:

1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?


Signs and wonders:

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

These signs and wonders were:
1) The raising from the dead
2) The immediate visible healing of dreaded diseases
3) Authority

Unless the position has -decreased- in power for some odd reason, which cannot be supported by scripture, there are no apostles today.
 
There was someone else who was also called an apostle (who really wasn't one), I think it was either Timothy or Titus(?). But that term just means "messenger" anyway. A good thing to say if he points to this and perhaps other Scriptures is that they (Titus or whoever was called an apostle) was an apostle of the church, sent by the original apostles who were apostles of Christ.

Rembrandt
 
[quote:1378530827][i:1378530827]Originally posted by Richard B. Davis[/i:1378530827]


Here's my question: How am I to respond to this? I know that he's wrong, and he's teaching something that is potentially very dangerous. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Grace,

Tom [/quote:1378530827]
Get away and stay away from them. You gave your reasons and leave it at that with the pastor/apostle. Have nothing more to do with them. Sticking around isnt going to show the ones you care about that it isnt something to flee from. If they see you say your peace and depart from that organization, your friends should see the integrity in that.
 
[quote:cdde90d332][i:cdde90d332]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:cdde90d332]
They are probably with the vineyard and the kansas city prophets, right? [/quote:cdde90d332]

Is that a new baseball team, "The Kansas City Prophets"?:scratch:
 
No, this group is out of South Africa, interestingly enough. Their "lead apostle" is named "Dudley Daniel."

Scott,

Thanks
 
Scott,

From your knowledge, do you know of any persons in the NT being called "apostles" other than those who had seen Christ, etc? If so, I am aware that apostle means one that is sent out, or something. Any help using this in an arguement?

Grace,

Tom :eureka:
 
2 Cor 8:23

2Co 8:23 If any asks about Titus, he is my partner and a fellow worker for you; or about our brothers, they are [i:7c667fcefb]messengers[/i:7c667fcefb] of the assemblies, the glory of Christ.

Messengers: # 652 Apostolos

MacArthur says that the term is non technical. Apostles not senbt by Christ but sent by the church. No miracles are documented in the NT by this group.

Aslo, when the epistles speak of leaders, it is never in terms of apostleship, only deacons elders etc.
 
[quote:4611b8ff40][i:4611b8ff40]Originally posted by Richard B. Davis[/i:4611b8ff40]
He told me "prophetically" that I need to stop "doing theology" and get a relationship with God. Needless to say this alarmed me.
[/quote:4611b8ff40]

Heed the alarm. Stay away from them.
 
Chiming in.

You can't undelude the self-deluded and you can't fix [b:ca14d8a755]stupid[/b:ca14d8a755]. Shake the dust off your feet and if you know anyone else there, share the truth with them and pray that they pull away as well.
 
God is all about theology there woudlnt be theology if there wasnt God

Kansas City Prophets are they a new national league team

blade
 
I'm not trying to "fix" that church or anyone in it. However I do think that it is helpful to talk to people and leaders in these kinds of churches, as it is important to know about them in the event that a brother or sister you know ends up in a church like that.

However I must say that I am rather put-off by the whole thing. I met with a member of the church the other day (who is a friend who has been going there since the church began) who raved about the apostolic leadership of the church and how their preaching was so good. I had no idea what he was talking about. It just seemed to me that the "apostle" was simply stringing together a bunch of verses that weren't meant to be strung together and telling us a buch of stories that I was unaware of how exactly they had anything to do with the topic of the sermon (this is assuming that I know what the sermon was about, which I didn't). People sit under this kind of preaching all the time. This is hardly a unique situation.

I'm angst about this whole thing. Anyone have any insight into how to talk with these people gracefully?? :help:
 
[quote:cc64a13e82]Here's my question: How am I to respond to this? I know that he's wrong, and he's teaching something that is potentially very dangerous. Any help would be very much appreciated.[/quote:cc64a13e82]

I am somewhat confused by exactly what you are concerned about. Are you concerned about his misapplication of apostleship or is he teaching heresy? If he has a team of elders or deacons and is simply calling them apostles, I see no harm (except that he might have a rather large ego.)

I read their statement of faith, and see no real problems with it other than vague Arminian references and that they believe in the charismata. As a Calvinist and a cessationist, I certainly do not agree with those parts.

What was the general topic of his sermon?

Edited to add:

Just from what you've posted, my biggest concern would be his attitude toward your "doing theology". He sounds like the sort who is responsible the rampant anti-intellectualism that is permeating the church.

[Edited on 4-21-2004 by Newly Reformed]
 
As in "sent", or as in the "office?"

If you mean sent, OK, if you mean apostles, no sir.

Also, check the signature requirements to comply with them (check the link on the bottom of my signature.)

and also :welcome:

[Edited on 12-11-2004 by webmaster]
 
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry,1 ye are God's building.

EAV 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

EAV 1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

EAV 1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

EAV 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest:1 for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed2 by fire; and the fire shall try3 every man's work of what sort it is.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

I like using foundational theology. If the Apostles and Prophets are the foundation and Christ is the Cornerstone, then the only way they can be Apostles and Prophets is by either tearing down the original foundation or building another foundation on top of what the Lord has already established, and by doing either aren't they saying the original is not good, or faulty and in need of repair.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
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