Arab "Christian" hatred of Muslims

Discussion in 'Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church' started by VilnaGaon, Oct 9, 2009.

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  1. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    Over the years, here in North America, I have witnessed an almost venomous hatred of Muslims by so-called Arab ""Christians""---mostly Copts. Strangely this hatred in the form of words, glares, attitudes and just plain loathing tends to be directed more against darker-skinned Muslims from Asia and Africa than against Arab Muslims.
    Has anyone else on this board noticed this?
    People like this are just making it harder for us Christians who do witness to Muslims rather than just hate them!
     
  2. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Anyone who comes out of a cult usually has some resentment baggage to overcome before they can effectively minister to those who are still stuck in it. :2cents:
     
  3. Mark Hettler

    Mark Hettler Puritan Board Freshman

    If I were a Christian from a Muslim country, and my sanctification process wasn't quite completed yet, I suspect I might harbor some resentment myself.
     
  4. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    My wife used to live in Cairo and the Copts were given a lovely home by the Egyptians there: on top of the garbage piles outside the city. I'd be bitter, I think.
     
  5. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    I think I would also struggle with bitterness if I was persecuted. I think it can be easy for those of us who do not face persecution to tell others to "love their enemies."
     
  6. Sweaty Deacon

    Sweaty Deacon Puritan Board Freshman

    And since Islam required the Copts to pay the jizya or tribute every year at which time they were publicly humiliated as part of their payment, and live in dhimmitude, stripping their Christianity of it's power and treating them as second class citizens - I can see bitter.
     
  7. Scottish Lass

    Scottish Lass Puritan Board Doctor

    I don't know the percentages, but I would think that at least many Arab Christians were never associated with Islam, if that's what you're referring to.
     
  8. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    No, I'm just looking at a Christians humanity when dealing with issues. We may present ourselves as sanctified and totally forgiving, but there is always some baggage to deal with.
     
  9. Turtle

    Turtle Puritan Board Freshman

    The few Arab Christians that I know (who were born and raised under persecutions in Islamic countries) are exceptionally polite, very expressive of their faith in Christ, and only get visibly frustrated when Americans ignorantly nod along with proponents of the "peaceful religion" as if it were of equal value and effect as the true religion.

    Their most frustrating moments occur when Americans listen intently to "erudite Doctors" (and practitioners) of the peaceful religion, but refuse to listen to those who have lived under oppression in countries dominated by the peaceful religion. The ones I know can still quote many of the verses (of hatred and violence against the Kafir, infidel) that they were forced, as young children, to memorize from the Qur'an.

    The frustration I have witnessed them to have is not against people per-se, but rather against deceit and the apparent ambivalence to whether or not there really is any deliberate deception going on.

    Bryan
     
  10. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Islam is not "peaceful". In the end, it is oppression or extermination for those who do not embrace it.
     
  11. Scottish Lass

    Scottish Lass Puritan Board Doctor

    I guess I don't know what you mean by "cult," then.
     
  12. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Cult= any religion with a my way or the highway threat from the leader(s)
     
  13. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Copts are a cult.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Puritan Board Doctor

    I had a some encounters with an Egyptian Copt couple recently in the course of my work, and they were definitely bitter against muhummadeens. The have endured a long history of severe persecution at the hands of the 'prophet's' followers.
     
  15. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    Many of these Middle Eastern ""Christians"" have a history of persecuting the Jews in their countries even under Islamic Rule. eg. the Armenian persecution of Jews under the Ottoman Empire. The Muslims seem to have a hierachy of infidels with Christians on the top and Jews at the bottom. Sorry, I can't shed too many tears for these false ""Christians"" being persecuted by Muslims, when they do likewise to the Jews. I believe from Romans 11, that we should take care how we treat God's ancient people ---- the Jews.
    I would like your views on this.
     
  16. toddpedlar

    toddpedlar Iron Dramatist Staff Member

    It seems to me, Rich, that you aren't hearing what Anna was saying, and that we're way down a rabbit trail. You have understood the OP to be talking about Arab Muslim converts to Christianity who are bitter and judgmental toward Muslims. I am gathering this from your "you would be bitter too if you came out of a cult".

    However, there are a fairly large number of Arabs both in Palestine and in Egypt, and other Arabic regions, who have been Christians for generations. Now I'm not sure what the OP was focusing on for certain, but one cannot assume that simply because one of Arabic descent is a Christian today, he must have converted from Islam. This is (I think) all Anna was trying to point out.

    As for the "cult" comment, it's usually not common usage to refer to Islam as a cult - it's simply a false relgion.
     
  17. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    These so-called Arab ""Christians"" are no more Christian than Roman Catholics are. The hatred they demonstrate to Muslims here in the Free World, while calling themselves Christian, gives True Christians who witness to Muslims a bad name.
     
  18. toddpedlar

    toddpedlar Iron Dramatist Staff Member

    I take it by "these" you are referring to a particular small group of people that you have some experience with. However, you are painting with a very broad brush, tarring Arab Christians of all kinds with the brush you wish to slap on the particular people who have offended you by their actions. You should be more specific about who it is you're addressing (and make your criticisms in a more Christlike manner yourself). While I agree that the people you are talking about are a poor witness for Christ, I can't say much more for your own manner in taking them to task.
     
  19. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    Todd, I think that a large part of the previous comment is directed at the fact that the overwhelming majority of these Arab Christians are Coptic, Maronite, Church of Antioch, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. and in many places on this board, we are very quick to place RCs in the camp of the pagan, EOs in the camp of the pagan, insert-any-non-protestant-group, etc. etc., and yet when we talk Jews persecuting these groups in the Middle East, we move with almost mechanical precision to speak of the "beleaguered Christians" there. Were they here, we would call them idolators, but in the abstract, they are Christians. I think that therein lies the frustration.

    Why the double standard? (That's not directed at you, but at anyone who can answer; as I've seen this a number of times in other threads.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  20. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    These Arab '""Christians"" I refer to are mostly Coptic, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox and Maronite who by their theology have shown themselves outside the Historic Christian Faith. I disagree that my comments are un-Christlike, I am of Dutch Heritage, I call a spade a spade.
    I have had quite a few Muslims tell me of their encounters with these Middle Eastern ""Christians"" and the hate they received from them. Particularly disturbing was a bearded Pakistani Muslim employee of mine who told me of his encounter with a Coptic woman at a Supermarket checkout counter, where she screamed her hatred of Muslims to him in public. I firmly believe in witnessing to Muslims, not hating them.
     
  21. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    So wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them by these terms instead of Christians? We don't call RC's Roman Catholic Christians. Shouldn't we just acknowledge them as non-Christians and be a witness to them? Why do you expect more from these non-Christians than other non-Christians? As far as giving Christianity a bad name, I'm sure that I am guilty of doing such a thing on a regular bases. There are many ppl in America who claim Christianity who are in deep, unrepentant sin who are giving Christianity a bad name. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit doesn't rely on any of us to do His work of justification. Non-Christians can see the light of true Christians while acknowledging that those same said Christians are not perfect. I don't think it's our job to quench the fire of every group which claims Christianity and yet is clearly not Christian. I think it's our job to spread the truth of the Gospel to all those to whom we can. :2cents:
     
  22. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    When these groups call themselves Christian and openly and publicly hate Muslims we should repudiate their profession of Christianity. The difference between Roman Catholics, Copts, Orthodox and other non-Christians like Hindus and Sikhs is that Hindu and Sikhs do not profess the title Christian while holding to their wicked beliefs and practices like these groups do. A hypocrite is worse than an infidel.
     
  23. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Jacob, before you develop such passionate opinions you should really broaden your knowledge base. Sorry, but the books you get your information from seem rather inbred, judging by your posts.

    First, Copts aren't Arabs. Second, there are no examples to my knowledge of Armenians persecuting Jews to the extent that they deserved to have a half million plus murdered my Muslims. Thirdly, well, I hardly know where to go, since your posts are based on passion that you've picked up somewhere and are so ambiguous that they are hard to answer in any event.

    OK, make a list of these "false Christians" and what specifically they did to Jews.

    Copts and Assyrians and Armenians are even more ancient than the Jews, and the half the Assyrians and more than half of the Armenians are orthodox Christians. The Palestinian Christian are Jews. Specifically those Jews who converted to Christianity at the very time of Christ, thus they are doubly Jews, ethnically, which is of no importance, and spiritually, which makes those elect among them our brethren.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  24. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    They're indigenous to Egypt. They are considered "Arab-Christians".
     
  25. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    They still use a form of the Egyptian language in their liturgy. They are (lately) largely Arabized, though as you say. They aren't orthodox Christians.
     
  26. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    I would refer you to Rabbi Marc Angel's book ""Foundations of Sephardic Spirtuality"" in which he discusses the persecution inflicted on Jews by Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I have loaned my copy out or I could give you the exact page and reference.
    Bat Yeor in her book ""The decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam"" points out that the Islamic Laws of Dhimmitude which are used to persecute and subjugate Copts and other Orthodox in Muslim Lands were derived from the Laws which these """Christians"" used to oppress and subjugate Jews just prior to the Islamic Conquest.

    I am well aware of the questionable theory circulating in Israeli Academic circles by Professor Sand who states that there was no deportation of the Jews by the Romans in 70AD and that the Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the descendants of the original Jews. His book was a bestseller in Israel and I hope to get the English translation which is due to come out next year. Perhaps you could recommend another author on this interesting theory.
    However I would not consider Palestinian Orthodox or Copts or any Eastern Orthodox as Christians because they deny Justification by Faith Alone without the Works of the Law which as Luther rightly stated is the doctrine on which a Church stands or falls.
    I am constantly expanding my ""Knowledge Base"" , so any books on this topic which you or anyone would care to recommend is appreciated. BTW I am a Redneck, so I do get passionate and I don't apologise for that.
     
  27. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    A Jewish book on the persecution of Jews by others? Anything else?


    Copts are *not* orthodox. It's not something that has to do with personal opinion, Jacob.

    In the mean time, Texas A&M has a site Anthropology In The News, where you can get a broader viewpoint on these sorts of things, including several DNA studies. I do not recommend just one book on the subject.

    Jacob, your consideration has nothing to do with it. The word orthodox has a specific meaning agreed upon by everyone. Like Bush, or Door, or Bear.

    Well, there are a lot of Christian Zionist Rednecks. In fact, that's pretty much their population base, but you're the first one I've met who blames Muslim bad behavior on Christians.....
     
  28. Turtle

    Turtle Puritan Board Freshman


    Everyone has the capacity to hate and oppose, but we don't always hate and oppose the right things. This is no surprise, seeing that even the disciples didn't always get it right. In Mark 9:33 the disciples were disputing among themselves who was the greatest but they were too embarrassed to answer when Jesus asked them what they were discussing. As an object lesson He put a young child in their midst and told them that whoever desired to be first would be last.

    Feeling a bit rebuked perhaps, John spoke up to recover some standing (a good name) by announcing they had forbade one who did not follow them, but Jesus then continued the lesson. In essence, "ok, if the conversation must be about what we oppose then lets talk about opposing." If thy hand offend thee cut it off. If they foot offend thee, cut it off. If thine eye offend thee pluck it out. For it is better to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes be cast into hell fire. Have salt in yourselves.

    If a Muslim is going to point fingers at who hates him (and accuse others by association) then he is just delaying a conversation about his own hatred and the necessity to be reconciled to God.

    Bryan
     
  29. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am not a Christian Zionist, I am amillennial. The Church is the People of God not the Jews, However they are God''s Ancient People and are beloved for the fathers sake (Rom 11;28)
    I am surprised that you would dismiss a book just because it was written by a Jew.
    As regards the Orthodox, if we regard the Roman Catholics as not Christian as many on this board do, we should regard their Orthodox Brothers likewise.

    Armenian atrocities against Jews in the Ottoman Empirehttp://http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/45315/armenian-atrocities-against-jews-in-the-ottoman-empire.html I hope the link works.
     
  30. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Gotta disagree with you there, brother. Karl Marx and Scooter Libby aren't loved by God any more than some Armenian that was murdered by Ataturk.

    I would never do that. But I did a quick google on the author and want something more mainstream. Especially since you are making such a grave allegation.

    Jacob, if you're not willing to do a half hour worth of study, I'm finished with you on this subject. Please look into it and tell me if monophysites are orthodox. I'm open, I assure you, but I want equal effort on your part!

    -----Added 10/11/2009 at 05:39:05 EST-----

    Jacob, against my better judgment I went to the article you linked to.

    Friend, I would like you to PM me the email or phone number of one of the elders of the church you attend.
     
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