Arab "Christian" hatred of Muslims

Discussion in 'Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church' started by VilnaGaon, Oct 9, 2009.

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  1. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    Tim , the Copts do consider themselves Orthodox. The name of their denomination is the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Im aware of the Monophysite Schism after the Council of Chalcedon and that they are Monophysites like the Syrian Orthodox in the Middle East and India. But if these groups consider themselves Orthodox who are we to dispute that!!
    If you want a more Mainstream author on the subject of Armenian Persecution of Jews, I will get Simon Wiesenthal's book on the Persecution of Jews over the last 2000 years. ( I have been looking for an excuse to buy that book)
    BTW Rabbi Marc Angel is an authority on the Sephardim. His book is published by Jewish Lights---a respected Orthodox Jewish Publisher.
  2. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Are you serious?

    Wiesenthal is a writer of holocaust fiction. His book Night is actually listed under fiction at your library. Wiesenthal simply is not someone, even a Jewish holocaust expert would go to for factual claims about Jewish persecution. And you would know this if you expanded your reading.

    Here is a picture he drew of Jews being murdered by Germans


    Here is a picture Time Magazine showed of German spies being executed by the US army


    Wiesenthal is liar, who copied the picture of German spies shot by the US army and portrayed them as Jewish martyrs.

    Again, Wiesenthal's exaggerations are so taken for granted in War Crimes discussion communities that you pretty much automatically loose a debate if you appeal to him.

    Just like the KVJ onlies claims, I'll need a source from an accredited institute of higher learning before I take it seriously.
  3. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    Tim, do you believe that the Nazi Holocaust in WW2 resulting in 6 million Jewish Deaths is a historical fact? If you deny that, your biases in this matter would be clear and we can have no further discussion on this topic.
  4. calgal

    calgal Puritan Board Graduate

    Tim not to dogpile but to add to Jacob's question: do you also believe 7 million other "undesirables" were killed at the same time by Hitler for the same reasons? :worms:
  5. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    You're jumping from my statement the Weisenthal isn't considered a factual Holocaust historian to wondering about my belief in a large scale killing of Jews during WW2, which says more about your understanding of both debate and historiography than it does about anything else.

    As to your question, if you'd broaden your reading you would know that Raul Hilberg, who died recently and was considered the "Dean" of holocaust studies used a figure 900,000 less that 6 million. You would know that Gert Reitlinger, who is still considered one of the top 5 holocaust historians of all time used a figure of 4.6 million Jews killed during WW2.

    But Jacob, your reading isn't broad. And you don't know these things.

    For now, I'll accept Hilberg and Reitlinger if that will help you. Please do me the courtesy of doing an hour or so of research and giving me your opinion of Hilberg and Reitlinger.

    -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:19:44 EST-----

    Gail, no one knows for sure how many people the nazis killed. We can only guess. Certainly there were millions of Slavs and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies. The first people killed by HCN at Auschwitz (according to Commandant Hoess) were 200 Russian POWs.

    The first deaths caused by homicidal gas chambers are easier to ascertain, since German records are more detailed than, say, Romanian records. So we start off immediately with 80,000 ethnic Germans "useless eaters" killed in 6 carbon monoxide chambers scattered around Germany, then expanding to mental health hospitals in Belarus in the "14F13" action, then getting bigger.

    7 million? Perhaps, but that seems high. I'm open do discussing it!
  6. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    Tim you are right, I should not have suspected you as a Holocaust denier just on the basis of your rejection of Wiesenthal, However I have met too many Holocaust deniers in the Reformed Church not to become suspicious. I accept your criticism of my narrow reading and as I am always looking for an excuse to buy more books, I will buy and read Hilberg's book on the Holocaust. I have only read Wiesenthal on this topic so far.
    However I would like your response to the fact that the Copts regard themselves as Orthodox as evidenced by the name of their denomination---Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
  7. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    I'll let someone with better theological training than me answer the question as to whether the Copts are orthodox, holding to the ecumenical councils.

    Thanks for your graciousness.
  8. calgal

    calgal Puritan Board Graduate

    The number I heard (and trust me I had this stuff rammed into my little head from way too early an age so excuse me for sarcastically discussing genocide) was 4.5-6 million Jews with a grand total of 13 million for Hitler along with 20-25 million for Stalin and uncounted millions for Mao. 6 million was a high estimate but it does account for some action on the Eastern front where record keeping was secondary to the "fun" of mass extermination. :eek:

    -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:51:24 EST-----

    Tim One thought that might help: the term Orthodox like the term Catholic has two meanings. Orthodox for the Copts is like Catholic (big C) for a follower of Benedict XVI. :D
  9. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    I think that 13 million (which is a number including Jews, gypsies, mentally disabled, JWs, homosexuals, Christian dissenters, political prisoners, pows and all the rest) is the number that most of agreed upon. 6 million may sound high, but like you point out, it accounts for what happened on the eastern front (particularly in places like Belarus) where the records kept weren't as accurate. At any rate even if its not 6 million, its still one of the largest genocides we've ever seen - Only after Stalin and Mao, I think.

    Edit: I should clarify that that 13 million number also includes people who weren't targeted for genocide but who also were not combatants - for example, people who broke curfew and were shot by the soldiers, Poles who ran afoul of the German officers etc.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  10. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    Truly the 4.5 to 6 million figure for Jews is what scholar currently accept as within the bounds of holocaust orthodoxy. I'm impressed but not surprised, considering your current event posts over the years.

    Total numbers vary all over the board, but consensus seems to be that Stalin killed more, but Hitler was more efficient (national characteristic stereotypes, anyone?) in that between 1939 and 1945 Hitler killed more people, but since Stalin's reign was longer he killed the most.

    By any account, Slavs had it worst of all, with somewhere between 25 and 35million killed, but since they're at least nominally Christian, no one cares.

    -----Added 10/11/2009 at 06:55:04 EST-----

    I'm with you, Kathleen.
  11. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    Mao was the big man on campus when it came to tyrannical dictators and the death of his own people. Please excuse the obese quote:

    It was the Great Leap Forward which really tagged on some zeroes to the tally.
  12. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    What a butcher!!! He is still a darling to many Lefties today. Go figure!

    -----Added 10/13/2009 at 11:32:34 EST-----

    Richard Nixon in his book ""Leaders"" opines that Mao killed more people than any other Dictator.
  13. MrMerlin777

    MrMerlin777 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    A good friend of mine who I served with in the navy (quite a few years ago now), his Christian family fled from Pakistan when the villiage he was born in was invaded and burned by muslim extreemists they killed the men, raped and enslaved the women and burned the buildings and other property. I heard about this from the very words of Shabaz's father. As he told me the story their were tears in his eyes. He struggles to forgive as he knows he ought. He has no great love for Muslims or the pack of lies from Hell called Islam.

    Granted, Shabaz and his family are Pakistani and not Arab but I think the anger is similar and perhaps even understandable.
  14. VilnaGaon

    VilnaGaon Puritan Board Sophomore

    I can understand and sympathise with anyone who went through that!!!
    But I have no sympathy with any Christian who publicly humilates an innocent Muslim here in the West as a retaliation for what he/she went through back home. Or calling talk shows and using the most profane language in describing Muslims while identifying oneself as a Christian. I know of enough instances in both cases to be concerned.
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