Aramaic, 666, and possible meanings.

[Charles Johnson]

Greetings brothers!
I'm doing some investigating on the number of the beast 666, which I see in Hebrew numerals is תרסו. Assuming it may be taken for a word (which is a big 'if'), I see in the Aramaic Lexicon that this is a root that dates back to the Second Temple era, and has the meaning of 'oppose', among others. A brief search of Jewish talmudic and midrashic literature shows that the word also arises in medieval Hebrew with the same meaning. I'm hoping someone with a more thorough knowledge of Aramaic can provide some help with what verb forms this could be. Is the vav a (direct object) pronominal suffix? A marker of the third person plural? (wikipedia shows this as one possible option, which would give a meaning of 'they have opposed'.) Many thanks!

 

[Charles Johnson]

@iainduguid

 

[Charles Johnson]

If anyone has any exegetical or eschatological insights they'd like to share I'd certainly be interested in those too.

 

[iainduguid]

Greetings brothers!
I'm doing some investigating on the number of the beast 666, which I see in Hebrew numerals is תרסו. Assuming it may be taken for a word (which is a big 'if'), I see in the Aramaic Lexicon that this is a root that dates back to the Second Temple era, and has the meaning of 'oppose', among others. A brief search of Jewish talmudic and midrashic literature shows that the word also arises in medieval Hebrew with the same meaning. I'm hoping someone with a more thorough knowledge of Aramaic can provide some help with what verb forms this could be. Is the vav a (direct object) pronominal suffix? A marker of the third person plural? (wikipedia shows this as one possible option, which would give a meaning of 'they have opposed'.) Many thanks!

Charles,
Since you tagged me, I'll respond, but only to warn you (and others) away from speculative studies like this. If you want to understand the meaning of the number of the beast, you would be much better off consulting a standard commentary on Revelation, such as the vast tome authored by my colleague Greg Beale rather than engaging in gematria. It's extremely unlikely that a non-expert with the help of the internet is going to come up with new insights; it's much more likely that someone could be drawn away into unprofitable speculations. Unpointed Hebrew and Aramaic words can be made to say a variety of things, depending on the vowels you assume to go with them, as the Bible code craze a few years ago demonstrated. This is compounded if the gematria might be pointing to a Greek name rather than a Hebrew/Aramaic one. A quick search of the internet will quickly show you that Donald Trump/Hillary Rodham Clinton/Joe Biden can all be made to add up to 666 if you use the right formula.

There are some solid scholars who believe that 666 (or possibly 616; there are textual variants) in Revelation represents "Neron Caesar" (or "Nero Caesar" if 616) by gematria, and others that the gematria represents the Greek word therion ("beast"); but there are plenty of others who have alternative interpretations which don't involve gematria. Again, I would urge you to read solid scholarship on the subject rather than to try to branch out on your own.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Charles,
Since you tagged me, I'll respond, but only to warn you (and others) away from speculative studies like this. If you want to understand the meaning of the number of the beast, you would be much better off consulting a standard commentary on Revelation, such as the vast tome authored by my colleague Greg Beale rather than engaging in gematria. It's extremely unlikely that a non-expert with the help of the internet is going to come up with new insights; it's much more likely that someone could be drawn away into unprofitable speculations. Unpointed Hebrew and Aramaic words can be made to say a variety of things, depending on the vowels you assume to go with them, as the Bible code craze a few years ago demonstrated. This is compounded if the gematria might be pointing to a Greek name rather than a Hebrew/Aramaic one. A quick search of the internet will quickly show you that Donald Trump/Hillary Rodham Clinton/Joe Biden can all be made to add up to 666 if you use the right formula.

There are some solid scholars who believe that 666 (or possibly 616; there are textual variants) in Revelation represents "Neron Caesar" (or "Nero Caesar" if 616) by gematria, and others that the gematria represents the Greek word therion ("beast"); but there are plenty of others who have alternative interpretations which don't involve gematria. Again, I would urge you to read solid scholarship on the subject rather than to try to branch out on your own.

It's my understanding that תרסו is the numeral for 666, not a word that through gematria adds up to 666. So there is considerably less speculation involved here than in the proposed readings Kaesar Neron or Lateinos, because there are hundreds of possible combinations of letters that would render 666 through gematria, but there is only one numeral. So I guess I don't understand why it's respectable for a scholar to propose an interpretation that involves gematria but not for me to inquire about one far less speculative. That said, do you have any insights into the Aramaic verb form, or should I order an Aramaic grammar?

 

[Andrew35]

A quick search of the internet will quickly show you that Donald Trump/Hillary Rodham Clinton/Joe Biden can all be made to add up to 666 if you use the right formula.

Aha! I knew it!

 

[iainduguid]

It's my understanding that תרסו is the numeral for 666, not a word that through gematria adds up to 666. So there is considerably less speculation involved here than in the proposed readings Kaesar Neron or Lateinos, because there are hundreds of possible combinations of letters that would render 666 through gematria, but there is only one numeral. So I guess I don't understand why it's respectable for a scholar to propose an interpretation that involves gematria but not for me to inquire about one far less speculative. That said, do you have any insights into the Aramaic verb form, or should I order an Aramaic grammar?

Technically it is the numeral for 400, 200, 60, 6, since the most common form of gematria does not go above 400 (tav); other forms use final letters to represent larger numbers or dots above letters. There is no clear agreement that gematria was being used in Biblical times, though some scholars think it was; more recently it is often associated with mystical Jewish traditions such as the kabbalah. None of this means that it is impossible to find examples of it in the Biblical text; however, I simply wanted to warn you to be skeptical of any interpretations that you can't find being held by reputable scholars in the field. They generally will have much more experience and skill than you will as a relative novice (or someone like myself for that matter). As I have said, such interpretations tend to be highly speculative and debatable.

You asked for my opinion; feel free to take it or leave it, as you wish.

 

[Eyedoc84]

Do we know that gematria was in common use in the first century?

 

[VictorBravo]

I see in Hebrew numerals is תרסו

I'll only add that I don't think they used numerals that way.

I notice that in the Septuagint translation of 2 Chronicles 9:13 (Solomon's 666 talents of gold) it is spelled out in the same words found in Revelation 13:18. Of course, the Hebrew spells it out too.

No letters used as numerical symbols.

For what it's worth, I did find a reference on the world wide spider web that "Tarsu" meant Tarsus. So, Paul, being from Tarsus, was the antichrist.

Profitable....?

 

[Charles Johnson]

I'll only add that I don't think they used numerals that way.

I notice that in the Septuagint translation of 2 Chronicles 9:13 (Solomon's 666 talents of gold) it is spelled out in the same words found in Revelation 13:18. Of course, the Hebrew spells it out too.

No letters used as numerical symbols.

For what it's worth, I did find a reference on the world wide spider web that "Tarsu" meant Tarsus. So, Paul, being from Tarsus, was the antichrist.

Profitable....?

Yeah "from Tarsus" is one of the uses in the midrashic literature. You're correct that the old testament spells out numbers. Hebrew letters are used to number chapters but that's a more recent phenomena.

 

[RamistThomist]

Gematria is on the same level as allegory: it mean whatever you want it to mean. While John did use numerology, it was obviously linked back to Old testament history. While Paul used "allegory," he linked it to specific OT events (something medieval and modern allegorists never do).

 

[Charles Johnson]

I'm not certain that gematria should be used for understanding the meaning of the number of the beast in Rev. 13:18. But in defense of the idea:
1) Plenty of reliable interpreters think it should, including Turretin, Brakel, and Irenaeus. Now of course there are plenty of good interpreters who disagree.
2) Rev. 13:8 says, "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast", and I don't see how purely metaphorical readings of 666 are doing any counting. Now I don't see this argument as decisive in favor of gematria because it's not necessarily the case that the counting being done it literally adding things up, like how measuring the holy city in Revelation has a mystical meaning, and means something beyond taking a tape measure to the New Jerusalem.
3) There really can't be any doubt that the Jews employed some system of numerals when it was a common practice in the ancient world from many centuries before. Perhaps that system differs from the present-day practice of the Jews, but it strikes me as unlikely that the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Babylonians would use numerals and the Jews, subject at various points to all of those nations and speaking and writing in their languages, would make no use of them.
So I mention these as arguments that could be made in favor of this style of interpretation, without claiming that they settle the issue.