Are all Infants Elect? (Split from End Times Thread)

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DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Geoff please slow down and think. This is obviously an emotional issue for you that you may not have considered before in this way.

Let the Spirit have time to work with the scriptures you have been presented with.

And certainly speak to your pastor and elders.

But pray for God to give you an acceptance for His truth whatever that would be.

Its not about reformed, this is the major view of more solidly evangelical Christians.

As I asked you what difference if in the womb or out. and how old would it be OK
I will pray God gives you peace with His hard truths
Think on this and what difference there really is.
 

Reformed Baptist

Puritan Board Sophomore
Geoff please slow down and think. This is obviously an emotional issue for you that you may not have considered before in this way.

Let the Spirit have time to work with the scriptures you have been presented with.

And certainly speak to your pastor and elders.

But pray for God to give you an acceptance for His truth whatever that would be.

Its not about reformed, this is the major view of more solidly evangelical Christians.

As I asked you what difference if in the womb or out. and how old would it be OK
I will pray God gives you peace with His hard truths
Think on this and what difference there really is.

I have prayed about this. And frankly I am apalled. Thank you for your concern, but it is not needed nor is it welcome.

So far, I seem to stand quite alone on these boards in my view, but in the company of Spurgeon, Warfield, Calvin, et.

I pray God enlightens the eyes of my reformed brethren who have moved away from the opinions of their fathers before them.

You claim in the major view. It may be. But so far nothing indicates to me that is was the major view always. This is new, and I am deeply concerned as to why.

There is nothign in the Scriptures or the confession that says I cannot hold my view on this. What I am concerned with is being a part of something that thinks in such a manner as to lead them to the opposite conclusion.

-----Added 4/14/2009 at 01:31:12 EST-----


Because I leave a reformed denomination does not mean I abandon the teaching of Scripture on the areas we called "reformed" I have never once enjoyed the notion of the "reformed faith" unless it is just meant to be taken as the faith of Christ. I have a biblical faith. I believe the Bible teaches what we call Calvinism. I also believe it teaches what we call Covenant theology.

If there is no church on earth that I can in good conscience be a member of, then I will go to no church.
 
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Prufrock

Arbitrary Moderation
There is nothign in the Scriptures or the confession that says I cannot hold my view on this. What I am concerned with is being a part of something that thinks in such a manner as to lead them to the opposite conclusion.

But, to assure your heart, Geoff, no one is going to draw the opposite conclusion; rather, I simply refrain from drawing a conclusion to the matter at all.

I sincerely hope that such an issue would not be a deal-breaker for you with regards to reformed churches; but, even if it were, as you are aware by now there are many Reformed Baptists who hold the same position as you.
 
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PuritanCovenanter

The Joyful Curmudgeon
Staff member
If there is no church on earth that I can in good conscience be a member of, then I will go to no church.

I believe this would be a greater sin if you departed the organization that God has ordained over such a matter as this. God loves His Church. He gave himself for it. He has ordained Elders to watch over our souls. To neglect this would definitely be a violation and it is more pronounced than your understanding of this one issue.
 

Reformed Baptist

Puritan Board Sophomore
If there is no church on earth that I can in good conscience be a member of, then I will go to no church.

I believe this would be a greater sin if you departed the organization that God has ordained over such a matter as this. God loves His Church. He gave himself for it. He has ordained Elders to watch over our souls. To neglect this would definitely be a violation and it is more pronounced than your understanding of this one issue.

My answer is rhetorical. Does God expect His people to submit their conscience to another? I will discuss this no more with these boards. I will counsel with my elders on this.
 

Dearly Bought

Puritan Board Junior
The essay on Calvin's view quoted by Boettner may be found in its entirety here:

"Calvin's Doctrine of Infant Salvation," by Rev. R.A. Webb in Calvin Memorial Addresses

It would appear that Rev. Webb was arguing for what he believed to be the logical consequences of Calvin's theology for infant salvation. In other words, Webb did not demonstrate that Calvin actually taught the salvation of all those who die in infancy. Webb's assumption, imposed upon Calvin, was that the death of an infant cannot be penal in nature ""because it cannot in conscience appreciate the moral meaning of death." It seems much more likely to me to conclude that Calvin purposefully avoided addressing the matter. What is clear is that Calvin taught that all infants are under condemnation apart from the grace of God in Christ (as Rev. Webb also held).
 

Jimmy the Greek

Puritan Board Senior
Geoff. Please don't make this a deal breaker for participation in the PB either. I don't think yours is necessarily a minorty view, especiallly since we all agree that Scripture is not determinative in itself. In my humble opinion, your are making a reasonable conclusion -- with which I sympathize. The fact that some allow for a different result is also rational. I am sure the responses here have not intentionally been condescending in tone.

I value your participation here, brother.
 

PuritanCovenanter

The Joyful Curmudgeon
Staff member
If there is no church on earth that I can in good conscience be a member of, then I will go to no church.

I believe this would be a greater sin if you departed the organization that God has ordained over such a matter as this. God loves His Church. He gave himself for it. He has ordained Elders to watch over our souls. To neglect this would definitely be a violation and it is more pronounced than your understanding of this one issue.

My answer is rhetorical. Does God expect His people to submit their conscience to another? I will discuss this no more with these boards. I will counsel with my elders on this.

Yes He does. To His will. And he does expect us to be humble, meek, and submissive.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(Heb 13:17)

Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
(Heb 13:18)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:11)

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:12)

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(Eph 4:13)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:14)

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(Eph 4:15)

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(Eph 4:16)

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
(Rom 12:4)

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(Rom 12:5)

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
(Rom 12:6)

Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
(Rom 12:7)

Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
(Rom 12:8)

Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
(Rom 12:9)

Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
(Rom 12:10)

Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
(Rom 12:11)

Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
(Rom 12:12)

Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
(Rom 12:13)

Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
(Rom 12:14)

Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
(Rom 12:15)

Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
(Rom 12:16)

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
(Rom 12:17)

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
(Rom 12:18)

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
(Rom 12:19)

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
(Rom 12:20)

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
(Rom 12:21)

I do not believe it is biblical to operate outside of the Church which is Christ's body.
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
No one says you have to believe all infants dying go to hell

We just say one should not hold that all do go to heaven.

It is an unknown.

And again, notice that none of you posting here will answer at what age it would be OK for God to send them to hell.

you are not approaching this from a scriptural point of view but from what character YOU would like God to have.

A God of your own imagination.

So I ask you simply, at what age would it be OK for God to send a child to hell for not having faith and for his sin nature?

IF not in the womb, then at 2 months, 1 year 5 years?

Is it any less sad that a young child would go to hell or a 15 year old than an infant?
 

PuritanCovenanter

The Joyful Curmudgeon
Staff member
I do believe we have had discussions on accountability here also. When does one become accountable and at what age? You may do a search on the issue. The Isrealites who were 20 and younger were allowed to enter the promised land. Only two others were permitted above that age, Joshua and Caleb. They, and those under the age specified by Jehovah, got to enter the land. They were not held accountable for the sin of disbelief.

BTW, that is another topic. Maybe this one has run its course.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
I believe it was Jim Packer who commented on this issue by saying he is "hopefully agnostic." In other words, he doesn't think Scripture gives us a basis for a dogmatic conclusion, but nevertheless is hopeful that the destiny of those dying in infancy is eternal bliss.

This is *exactly* my position, because I don't believe Scripture teaches any more than this.
 
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