Arguments against modern day demonic possession

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timmopussycat

Puritan Board Junior
The biggest differences would be that possession implies ownership and in a universe where Jesus Christ is Lord, the Creator and all things are his I don't like the idea that satan owns anything.

Secondly, possession really isn't a biblical word. Daimonizomai, on the other hand, appears 13 times in the New Testament.
In the parable of the strong man bound Jesus did refer to the prize as "his" goods. It seems that de facto Satan still "owns" some people.
While there are Scriptures that refer to Satan's present loss of power, does that loss, as a practical matter, affect anyone other than the elect?
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
I've seen a few commentators who couldn't resist the temptation to make that parable walk on all fours with a great variety of results. Jesus is of course attacking the argument of the pharisees that he is somehow in league with the devil. He let's them know that internal dissension in Satan's camp would cancel out Satan's influence.

Jesus is not speaking of those whom Satan owns but rather of Satan's circle or realm of influence. Jesus let's them know that not only is he NOT in league with the devil but he has the power and authority to bind Satan so that the gospel message can go out unhindered. Satan had the power to deceive whole nations before he was bound.

As far as Satan's sphere of influence the language Jesus is using would be similar to us describing two salesmen in the same neighborhood. They decide the one will take the left side of the street and the other the right. Each can say, 'these are mine on this side of the street'; it doesn't mean they own them, only that these will be there sphere of influence.

In the case of Satan, those who practice habitual sin, those who reject the person and work of Christ, live in the realm of Satan's influence, they have given the devil a foothold. He doesn't need to own them, they are playing into his scheme. Our Lord will use Satan as an agent of his wrath and/or as a means of discipline.
 
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LeeJUk

Puritan Board Junior
So Bob, what exact remedy would you offer to people thinking their experiencing demonic activity?

To tell you the truth I never really have and never really want to. Apart from the day perhaps a few months ago of my baptism where a heretic sent me an email and i think it maybe put a curse on me or something coz i eventually took a panic attack...but i think thats more like what your saying bob, just devils trying to excite our imagination.

I'm not sure if anything literally happened or I took a panic attack.
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Lee, it's not a battle of power but one of truth. If it were power then the demons would have a definite advantage, they are invisible and they know more, a lot more, than you do of just about everything.

As I said, the focus of demonic attack is to test your conviction of the supreme authority and sovereignty of Christ as taught in scripture. Jame 1 tells us:

2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
The one who is most vulnerable is the double minded man who still builds his faith on a mix of favorite verses and sentiment. This double mindedness gives opportunity to the devil.

Study and teach your family the truths of God's sovereignty and who we are IN Christ.

Never try to engage a demon but as the scriptures say, resist the devil and he will flee. If you don't give them an opportunity they won't waste their time with you, if you do come under attack, then you must examine your self for unconfessed sin or wrong thinking about Christ.
 

Grillsy

Puritan Board Junior
I've seen a demonic presence jump back and forth between two of my daughters and telegraph the switch with a creepy leer in my direction. It was horrible, the demon was making sport of us but we were playing right into it's hands with our superstitions that we could drive them out by anointing door posts and confessing ancient family sins and walking around the property telling the demons that I was the owner. They did whatever they had to do to keep us in the game. I've mentioned the bleeding bath tub before, disembodied voices, lights turning off and on. I've seen the tricks and that's what they are.

Once I remove fear and superstition from the encounter, the demon has nothing, it is a pest.

I do fear for the non-believer who dabbles in the economy of the demonic, they are in great danger. Demons can be dangerous but I'm more frightened of an angry dog.
Bob,

When you say you have "seen" a demonic presence, what do you mean? Do you mean that you literally saw the being?

Forgive me if I sound too skeptical. I'm a little battle scarred from my months in Panama when I heard the uber-charismatics describe phenomena such as you have mentioned. Then they would prescribe faux-remedies for the problem similar to what you critique in your later posts.

Ever since my horrid experiences in that nation, I have been very skeptical of such things. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. Forgive me though if I cause any offense.
 
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BobVigneault

Bawberator
Hi Willie, no I never saw a demon, here is what I did see.

As the pastor who was conducting a 'deliverence' was going through our house praying in each room and anointing the door posts with oil (please, I am not recommending any of these methods) he was saving my younger daughters room for last because it had been spook central.

Daughter number one got up and started moving through the house, she had been the focus of the 'deliverance'. Daughter number two had never shown any signs of attack and was quite skeptical of such things, she thought it was nonsense that we were doing these things. Suddenly a peace came over No. 1 and No. 2 jumped up from the chair in our living room. I looked from the kitchen at No. 2 in time to see a strange evil grin leering at me. She started heading up to her room and I followed her, I spoke to her and she turned. The evil grin went away and I heard No. 1 move quickly through the kitchen and when I turned she gave me the EXACT same evil grin. I told the others that the demon was jumping back and forth between the girls. As we would go to one girl, it jumped to the other and always broadcasting the move by that evil leer. That was strange.

Daughter number two said that she would see a woman moving through her room at night and I would have believed it was her imagination but a lady stayed at our house when were weren't there and saw this same 'spirit' pass through the room. They saw something.

In another house, something would move through our upstairs hall and turn the lights off and on. It frightened the previous owners away. One night it came down the stairs to where my wife was standing. She said she heard each stair creek as it came down and stood in front of her. She saw nothing. She yelled at it to get out of our house.

Anyway, there were lots of typical 'ghost' stories in that house that we later heard from others who had lived there. I don't believe in ghosts of course.

Then there was the bleeding bathtub. Our claw foot tub starting oozing a rust colored liquid on several occasions, usually when I was getting ready to go to church. I was even in the tub scrubbing and it would continue to ooze. To this day I want to believe there is some chemical reason for that to happen. Plumbers investigated and they all said the same thing, "Call a priest".

So Willie, those are some of the physical and visual manifestations. I will eventually write all the experiences down, I just want to be able to give them a biblical explanation and not add more nonsense to an already sensational topic.

Since I have adopted viewing the demons as pests who lack power there have been no attacks in our house. Daughter no. 2 says she still sees things and hears voices but unfortunately she is still a bit superstitious. Daughter number one is still very much demonized and lives in habitual sin, not in my house. She attracts people who are into occult practices. She is not owned but she is in bondage to sin and therefore and easy target.
 

Grillsy

Puritan Board Junior
Thanks for sharing Bob.
I can honestly say that I have seen similar things (though possibly nothing like the bath-tub) while in Panama, well even in America too.
But the skeptic in me has always written everything off as logically explainable. It is most likely some baggage I have carried over from my heathen past.
I was hoping for some time, to hear someone from the OPC comment on things such as this, but until today my search for such a thing was unfruitful. Thank you very much for being so open, Bob.
 

Idelette

Puritan Board Graduate
You know what, we had a family in our church who had experienced very similar things in their house when they first bought it. They were all believers, and each of them experienced horrible demonic attacks! It wasn't until they brought it to our church session and we prayed for the family, that whatever demonic stuff was there finally left their home! Come to find out a couple of years later....that there used to be a woman who lived on that property before the house was built who had practiced witchcraft.
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Yvonne, there are some who make the argument that demons are territorial and I could go along with that. That would explain why things were going on in a house prior to our moving in. That was a question we asked over and over, did the demons come with the house or are they following us.

The similar question is do demon create the history of a house or do they use the history of a house for their scheme.

Demons are deceivers, they are primarily actors, they play a role. I believe, like an actor, they have favorite roles that they play over and over. There may even be a person in history that they like to impersonate, some would call these performances 'ghosts', I would not. I don't believe that all demons are equally bent on frightening. They have personalities, some can be quite benign.

A house with a history makes a perfect setting for a demonic presentation. It's much like a stage play. Research, preparation, cast, presentation are all elements necessary to a deceiving scheme.
 

Grillsy

Puritan Board Junior
Yvonne, there are some who make the argument that demons are territorial and I could go along with that. That would explain why things were going on in a house prior to our moving in. That was a question we asked over and over, did the demons come with the house or are they following us.

The similar question is do demon create the history of a house or do they use the history of a house for their scheme.

Demons are deceivers, they are primarily actors, they play a role. I believe, like an actor, they have favorite roles that they play over and over. There may even be a person in history that they like to impersonate, some would call these performances 'ghosts', I would not. I don't believe that all demons are equally bent on frightening. They have personalities, some can be quite benign.

A house with a history makes a perfect setting for a demonic presentation. It's much like a stage play. Research, preparation, cast, presentation are all elements necessary to a deceiving scheme.
All good points. Would you say these experiences, analysis of the experiences, and so on are typical in the Reformed community? Would most say that demons behave this way, or can behave this way?
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
These type of discussions don't come up a lot in the reformed community. A few books have been mentioned that speak to these matters but for the most part we find what Jay Adams has called 'reformed deism' where we tend to downplay these experiences to the point where they are simply ignored. Our response to the sensational over reaction of the other churches is to ignore these stories, yet everyone seems to have one.
 

awretchsavedbygrace

Puritan Board Sophomore
This is a awesome thread. The church I attended(free methodist church) before the reformed baptist church I attend now, focused much upon this idea. I am much of a skeptic when it comes to such things. It seems as those who focus upon the idea that demons have such power are the ones who find them selves, seeing or experiencing such things. In the methodist church I use to attend Alter calls would turn into deliverance of demons. Someone would scream for 5 minutes, as the pastor or other leaders circled the person and they would cast out the demons. My mother is very much into this stuff. I see it as utter non-sense. I say preach the Gospel and the demons will dissapear. Maybe Im taking these things to lightly, maybe I am not. But for for years I was bombarded with this stuff sunday after sunday.
 
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