Armageddon, a literal battle? (Amil idealists only)

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Sam Jer

Puritan Board Freshman
Please note: this thread is meant to discuss the last day from an amillennial, idealist or modified-idelist approach. If you want to advocate for other eschatological systems, please open a new thread.

The word of God speaks of the last day saying, Matt 24:36‭-‬44:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
And also, 1Thes 5:1‭-‬3:
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape."
It is probable this destruction is the same Enoch spoke of, when he said, Jud 1:14‭-‬15:
"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

But scripture also seems to speak of some very serious preparation for the last day, and phenomenal, extraordinary events building up to the last day. Zechariah says, Zech 14:1‭-‬4‭, ‬12:
"Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths."
And to Ezekiel, God sayed, Eze 38:14‭-‬23:
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.” Thus says the Lord God: “Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them? “And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.’ I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord."

The revelation of John also brings up this event, Rev 16:13‭-‬14‭, ‬16:
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."
And also, Rev 20:7‭-‬10:
"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."



So here is my question: is the last battle, the battle of Armageddon, a literal battle, or are these passages symbolic of the suffering of the church and it's persecution leading up to the last day? The appearance of the events in the book of revelation, and the geographical question of whether the battle is in Armageddon, that is Megido, or in Jerusalem, seem to suggest symbolism. However, the language of Ezekiel and Zechariah might suggest a literal battle, with a literal army and literal king. Additionally, Zechariah speaks of the Lord's return on the mount on olives, on which God's angels said, Act 1:11:
"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
 
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I am amil. My thoughts:
*Even if it is a literal battle, it certainly will not be on the plains of Megiddo. Har Mageddon is just that--the Mountain of Megiddo. That really does not fit the geography. If it is transliterated from the Hebrew, then it is the Mount of Assembly. I believe that the battle could be physical, but it will primarily be an end-time assault on the Mount of the Lord's Assembly.
 
So with reference to Ezekiel, how literal is literal? As Charles Ryrie pointed out a long time ago (as a dispensationalist committed to consistent literal interpretation), if you want literal then the final battle has to be fought with bows and arrows, clubs and spears. No rifles, helicopter gunships, etc: that would not be "literal". He's right, of course - but we can go further: if Ezekiel 38-39 is literally fulfilled there is NO battle, in the conventional sense. Israel does not fight: the Lord fights on their behalf. They simply collect the weapons of the seven nation coalition which they use for kindling for the next seven years (39:10), which is intriguing since these flammable things survived the fire from heaven that destroyed the enemies of God's people! And of course there is no mention of Megiddo/Armageddon in Ezekiel 38-39. So if Ezekiel 38-39 is your reason for sending advanced weaponry to the modern nation state of Israel, you haven't read the passage.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there will not be a final battle of some kind, which may be more literal in fulfilling some prophecies than some expect, but no one is truly consistently literal in interpreting these passages. Prophecy by its very nature often takes the forms of dreams, visions, and riddles, in contrast to the plain speech mode of revelation through Moses (Num. 12:6-8). It takes wisdom and skill (and often the benefit of hindsight) to interpret fully.
 
I view this as a literal battle, in the same way Paul describes spiritual battles taking place all around us.

Consider, Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Connect this to the experience of Elijah and his Servant in 2 Kings 6:8-23,
2Ki 6:16 He said, “Do not be afraid, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”

There are physical, real battles taking place all around us. Whenever Jesus returns these battles will mobilize from the heavens onto Earth in real fighting. But that is not to say that the fighting isn't happening right now. What this looks like to us is yet to be seen and experienced.
 
I've thought about this. In the amil stance almost all of Revelation is seen as symbolic. So the battle shouldn't be any different. As RamistThomist pointed out, whatever the battle is, it most likely is different from the literal language in Revelation.
 
I've thought about this. In the amil stance almost all of Revelation is seen as symbolic. So the battle shouldn't be any different. As RamistThomist pointed out, whatever the battle is, it most likely is different from the literal language in Revelation.

True, though I do not want to over-spiritualize it.
 
Hello Samuel @Sam Jer – and friends,

This is a topic long, and much, on my heart. Samuel, have you read any of the classic amil authors to glean what you can from their works? I refer to Dennis E. Johnson's, Triumph of the Lamb, Wm. Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors, and Greg Beale's larger commentary on Revelation? This latter, though, is huge (800 pages), and pricey, $81 if purchased in the U.S. It is also not for one beginning a study of the amil / modified idealist school, as it goes into great detail and depth, and Old Testament background – it's for serious students and scholars.

If you haven't yet, I would suggest Johnson's first – it is succinct, clear, and in-depth. I would say, at least cut your teeth on Johnson first.

In a nutshell at this point in the conversation, there are symbolic depictions of a literal battle that constitutes what Scripture calls Armageddon. God gathers the nations to war against Him: "to the battle of that great day of God Almighty....to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon" (Rev 16:14, 16). It is also depicted in Rev 20:7,8,9:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."​

The Gog and Magog of Ezek 38:14 ff. have not yet happened. The prophecy is fulfilled in Rev 20:7,8,9.

Armageddon is the name for the final end-time global assault on the church of Christ. It is spoken of in numerous places in Scripture. It is what was foreshadowed in the plotting of Haman in Esther – the killing of all God's dispersed people in the Persian empire of that time, who were delivered by Mordecai and Esther from that massive genocide. Our deliverance will be in Christ – for those in Him – by resurrection, death being simply an entrance into His presence, however awful the passage through Jordan be.

The nations are being groomed even now before antichrist's appearance on the scene to hate the Christians and their adherence to God's law – going against the grain of the times and its trans new free humanity defined by our own inward feelings of identity, spurning God's design in creating us. The nations – the peoples thereof –are being groomed for this battle.

So, yes, there is symbolism involved, but the battle itself signified is a real historical event.

You also mentioned Zechariah 14. The best commentary I have found expositing the Reformed amil view in Zechariah is Richard D. Phillips', Zechariah (Reformed Expository Commentary). From his book:


THE RANSACKED CITY

Zechariah 14:1–11 presents a threefold progression. First, there is a successful attack of the nations against God’s city (Zech. 14:1–2). Second is the Lord’s appearance to fight for and defend his people (Zech. 14:3–5). Third, verses 6–11 show the result of this in the end-times cataclysm that brings in the eternal reign of God.​
Verse 1 makes a general statement that is developed in verse 2: “Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”​
It is important for us to note the link between this and the previous verse, Zechariah 13:9, in which God says of his people, “I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested.” This is how God brings about the true devotion with which that verse ends, by purifying his people in severe hardship and removing the worldliness from our hearts. The picture of the first two verses is terrible, but the fact is that God offers spiritual blessings that sometimes come through great worldly trials. What Paul taught the early Christians in Acts 14:22 was true for the Jews before and is true for us as well: “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” “You have been grieved by various trials,” Peter also explained, “so that the tested genuineness of your faith . . . may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:6–7).​
It is surely the case that the majority of Christians underestimate the cost of following Christ in this world. We expect a little social awkwardness, or perhaps some problems at work or in our families, but we hardly imagine what these verses show: God himself gathering the nations to tear his city apart. But this has happened many times in church history, such as during the persecutions of the Roman Empire and the great persecutions that accompanied the Protestant Reformation. In every case, intense persecution glorified Christ before the world through the suffering faithfulness of his people, and prefaced a new victory for his kingdom of grace. Persecution also served to test and purify Christ’s people. Philip Schaff writes of the persecutions against the early church: “As war brings out the heroic qualities of men, so did the persecutions develop the patience, the gentleness, the endurance of the Christians, and prove the world-conquering power of faith.”5​
This should prompt us to ask if we are willing to endure intense affliction as Christians. Are we, men and women alike, willing to accept pain and humiliation for Jesus? Would we renounce the faith before suffering the fate described by Zechariah?​
If we are not willing to suffer in these ways for our faith, then the fact is that we cannot be Christians. Not all believers will suffer intense forms of persecution, but we must all be ready and willing in such an event. The book of Hebrews records the steadfast suffering of God’s people under trial: they “were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—the world was not worthy of them” (11:35–38 NIV). These things have happened to Christians all through the ages, are happening even now in places like the Sudan and Indonesia, and could happen in the West all too easily. Should God bring upon us a true persecution, our numbers would no doubt dwindle, but his purpose of purifying the church would surely succeed.​
Zechariah specifically depicts a heightened persecution of God’s people that will come just before the end. The day of the Lord “will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thess. 2:3–4). Passages like Daniel 9:24–27 speak in similar terms, telling of a savage attack on God’s city. Ezekiel 38 and 39 also prophesy such an attack. Revelation, with its several recapitulations of church history, likewise shows a time of heightened tribulation which the church must endure before salvation in the end. Therefore, Christians should take Zechariah 14:1–2 quite seriously, as a terrible and vicious assault that will come upon the church, God’s Jerusalem, before the end of this present age.​
Pp 305-308, Richard D. Phillips, Zechariah (Reformed Expository Commentaries) P&R Publishing. Kindle Edition. Kindle Edition.​
 
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Hello Samuel @Sam Jer – and friends,

This is a topic long, and much, on my heart. Samuel, have you read any of the classic amil authors to glean what you can from their works? I refer to Dennis E. Johnson's, Triumph of the Lamb, Wm. Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors, and Greg Beale's larger commentary on Revelation? This latter, though, is huge (800 pages), and pricey, $81 if purchased in the U.S. It is also not for one beginning a study of the amil / modified idealist school, as it goes into great detail and depth, and Old Testament background – it for serious students and scholars.

If you haven't yet, I would suggest Johnson's first – it is succinct, clear, and in-depth. I would say, at least cut your teeth on Johnson first.

In a nutshell at this point in the conversation, there are symbolic depictions of a literal battle that constitutes what Scripture calls Armageddon. God gathers the nations to war against Him: "to the battle of that great day of God Almighty....to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon" (Rev 16:14, 16). It is also depicted in Rev 20:7,8,9:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."​

The Gog and Magog of Ezek 38:14 ff. have not yet happened. The prophecy is fulfilled in Rev 20:7,8,9.

Armageddon is the name for the final end-time global assault on the church of Christ. It is spoken of in numerous places in Scripture. It is what was foreshadowed in the plotting of Haman in Esther – the killing of all God's dispersed people in the Persian empire of that time, who were delivered by Mordecai and Esther from that massive genocide. Our deliverance will be in Christ – for those in Him – by resurrection, death being simply an entrance into His presence, however awful the passage through Jordan be.

The nations are being groomed even now before antichrist's appearance on the scene to hate the Christians and their adherence to God's law – going against the grain of the times and its trans new free humanity defined by our own inward feelings of identity, spurning God's design in creating us. The nations – the peoples thereof –are being groomed for this battle.

So, yes, there is symbolism involved, but the battle itself signified is a real historical event.

You also mentioned Zechariah 14. The best commentary I have found expositing the Reformed amil view in Zechariah is Richard D. Phillips', Zechariah (Reformed Expository Commentary). From his book:


THE RANSACKED CITY

Zechariah 14:1–11 presents a threefold progression. First, there is a successful attack of the nations against God’s city (Zech. 14:1–2). Second is the Lord’s appearance to fight for and defend his people (Zech. 14:3–5). Third, verses 6–11 show the result of this in the end-times cataclysm that brings in the eternal reign of God.​
Verse 1 makes a general statement that is developed in verse 2: “Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”​
It is important for us to note the link between this and the previous verse, Zechariah 13:9, in which God says of his people, “I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested.” This is how God brings about the true devotion with which that verse ends, by purifying his people in severe hardship and removing the worldliness from our hearts. The picture of the first two verses is terrible, but the fact is that God offers spiritual blessings that sometimes come through great worldly trials. What Paul taught the early Christians in Acts 14:22 was true for the Jews before and is true for us as well: “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” “You have been grieved by various trials,” Peter also explained, “so that the tested genuineness of your faith . . . may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:6–7).​
It is surely the case that the majority of Christians underestimate the cost of following Christ in this world. We expect a little social awkwardness, or perhaps some problems at work or in our families, but we hardly imagine what these verses show: God himself gathering the nations to tear his city apart. But this has happened many times in church history, such as during the persecutions of the Roman Empire and the great persecutions that accompanied the Protestant Reformation. In every case, intense persecution glorified Christ before the world through the suffering faithfulness of his people, and prefaced a new victory for his kingdom of grace. Persecution also served to test and purify Christ’s people. Philip Schaff writes of the persecutions against the early church: “As war brings out the heroic qualities of men, so did the persecutions develop the patience, the gentleness, the endurance of the Christians, and prove the world-conquering power of faith.”5​
This should prompt us to ask if we are willing to endure intense affliction as Christians. Are we, men and women alike, willing to accept pain and humiliation for Jesus? Would we renounce the faith before suffering the fate described by Zechariah?​
If we are not willing to suffer in these ways for our faith, then the fact is that we cannot be Christians. Not all believers will suffer intense forms of persecution, but we must all be ready and willing in such an event. The book of Hebrews records the steadfast suffering of God’s people under trial: they “were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—the world was not worthy of them” (11:35–38 NIV). These things have happened to Christians all through the ages, are happening even now in places like the Sudan and Indonesia, and could happen in the West all too easily. Should God bring upon us a true persecution, our numbers would no doubt dwindle, but his purpose of purifying the church would surely succeed.​
Zechariah specifically depicts a heightened persecution of God’s people that will come just before the end. The day of the Lord “will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thess. 2:3–4). Passages like Daniel 9:24–27 speak in similar terms, telling of a savage attack on God’s city. Ezekiel 38 and 39 also prophesy such an attack. Revelation, with its several recapitulations of church history, likewise shows a time of heightened tribulation which the church must endure before salvation in the end. Therefore, Christians should take Zechariah 14:1–2 quite seriously, as a terrible and vicious assault that will come upon the church, God’s Jerusalem, before the end of this present age.​
Pp 305-308, Richard D. Phillips, Zechariah (Reformed Expository Commentaries) P&R Publishing. Kindle Edition. Kindle Edition.​
Thank you! I was looking forward for your answer, knowing how throughly you answer eschatology threads, and that you hold an amillennial idealist interpretation. Much of what you said here seems to be sound, and fits well with the conclusions I am coming to in different theological questions. That above passages describe some sort of persecution in the very last days is pretty clear to me, especially after reading this answer. It definitely makes one think of the psalm:
Why do the heathen rage, And the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, And cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: The Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, And vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

I do have one question about you're answer though, and that is how we will tell the man of sin from the many candidates throughout history.

As to you're recommended reading, I may get to reading some of these eventually, but I haven't read any of them yet.
 
As far as books go, Kim Riddlebarger's, The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth about the Antichrist is the best I've found. The Pauline Eschatology (digital) by Geerhardus Vos, also has a significant section on him.

There have been many lesser candidates – precursors of the final antichrist – up through history, but the one at the end will stand out vividly as the archetype of them all. He will be a hero to the woke crowd, and to those hailing fierce dystopian systems of control, and a voice of "sanity" to all those who hate the Law of God, the Bible, and God's people – fearless and effective in his denunciation of them. He will be a smooth talker to those with itching ears, but will, like the false prophet (of Revelation), speak like a dragon against that which is holy.

As we see in 2 Thess 2:1-12, he will be a man with great political clout, and also be a figure in the professing church – though not among the believing remnant, who will recognize him for what he is.

Greg Beale in his commentary on 1st and 2nd Thessalonians also speaks of him in 2 Thess.

If books are very expensive to obtain in Israel (as they are here in Cyprus – though I collected most of my library while in the states), get Kindle or digital versions, which are usually much cheaper.
 
Further: in Biblical typology we see persons or things that foreshadow or prefigure a full reality yet to come. In the NT we have it said – in John's epistles – there are many antichrists, those who deny that Christ is come in the flesh, or more broadly, who teach against His doctrines, or who seek to supplant Him. The term antichrist is also used to refer to the Beast of Revelation 13 et al / aka the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2, signifying a Christian-persecuting leader and / or government. But at the very end of time one shall arise who will be the full manifestation of the antichrist spirit, a human being more fully embodying the devil than any of his precursors.

Are there no Christians in Israel with any of these aforementioned books? The Amillennial school has a wealth of info on these things – a field of knowledge and insight that is needful to understand them. The limited instruction that we can offer here on PB is minuscule in comparison to deeper study – though we try!
 
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