Arminian Dispenationalists may be in error but
- Thread starter ReformedWretch
- Start date
- Status
Possibly, if Catholics, Lutherans, or Orthodox are right (they're not).
The key issue is, however, that even if 8 options are available, we are still recognizing that deficient views and practices of the sacraments are sins.
How could they not be? Sin also attaches to unmandated worship, Sabbath breaking, and everything else. Why anyone on this board who is aware of the severity and exactness of God's law would get their feathers ruffled because someone pointed out remaining sin bewilders me.
We aren't perfectionists. We'll have the remnants of sin until death. Don't get bent out of shape when someone points out the theological implications thereof.
And I would assume that anyone who dares to enter PB would have that mindset. However, PB is not an accurate cross-section of the church. Those in the church are the purchased possessions of Lord Jesus Christ and should be treated as such. If you are going to disagree, it should be done with lowliness, meekness, longsuffering and forbearance in love.
Sometimes we forget that being 'right' and proving so is not regarded in the Bible as the most important thing. I am remided of Naaman coming to Elisha after he had been healed and after confessing the Lord as the true God asks, "In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing." Now, Elisha could have ripped him a new one, trying to argue that this would be a sin that needed to be repented of, but Elisha merely says, "Go in peace." Elisha did not feel the need in that situation to be right and prove that he was right. Sometimes it is OK just to tell a weeker brother, "Go in peace." (See also Rom 14)
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Excellent point Ken!
Ken,
I wish this issue was so simple from its generation to its current form.
I was running this AM and thinking of this thread. I thought of the way I sometimes discuss things with people who don't keep track of the things they say. Human nature is such that a dialogue is started, people start to move away from their original premises, and before you know it, they are saying: "I never implied that...."
What I find terribly uncharitable in all of this is that I never found CH to be over-stepping and simply saying: "Repent all you Baptists!" over and over and over. He made arguments. Both sides were saying the other was un-Scriptural. CH was not mean-spirited about it. He was not un-humble. To claim otherwise is to impugn his motivation. I never saw him resort to ad hominem attacks.
Then, the real irony began.
Members started getting upset and insisting that we should not call something else sin. The irony is that the insistence over being dogmatic about the Sacraments is being condemned with more vehemence and fervor than CH ever levied against any Baptist on this board. Thus, the very people that want people to "get along" are themselves the least willing to accept the expression of another's Confessionalism - starting threads preferring Arminian Dispensationalists for their humility and then your post, Ken, again claiming this is all a matter of humility.
I've tried very hard to remain focused in this post and keep people's minds fixed on why Truth matters. We cannot rend Truth from humility, although I grant that their can be Truth without humility.
I also think, that in this dialogue, people ought to read for themselves what CH wrote because the repeated charge that "...I just don't want people to keep saying repent, repent, repent..." is simply uncharitable. A man ought to be condemned for the spirit and manner in which he did something and not be charged repeatedly for something because it struck an emotional chord.
I'm not ending this debate but I am going to put my foot down. If people want to discuss the merits/demerits of being certain of what we believe and whether we should ever say another man is sinning then let's do that. BUT, I refuse to continue to allow CH to be drug through the mud in this thread as if the genesis of this whole dialogue was his uncharitableness. It was not and it is clear to anyone who reads both his words and the beginning of this thread.
I wish this issue was so simple from its generation to its current form.
I was running this AM and thinking of this thread. I thought of the way I sometimes discuss things with people who don't keep track of the things they say. Human nature is such that a dialogue is started, people start to move away from their original premises, and before you know it, they are saying: "I never implied that...."
What I find terribly uncharitable in all of this is that I never found CH to be over-stepping and simply saying: "Repent all you Baptists!" over and over and over. He made arguments. Both sides were saying the other was un-Scriptural. CH was not mean-spirited about it. He was not un-humble. To claim otherwise is to impugn his motivation. I never saw him resort to ad hominem attacks.
Then, the real irony began.
Members started getting upset and insisting that we should not call something else sin. The irony is that the insistence over being dogmatic about the Sacraments is being condemned with more vehemence and fervor than CH ever levied against any Baptist on this board. Thus, the very people that want people to "get along" are themselves the least willing to accept the expression of another's Confessionalism - starting threads preferring Arminian Dispensationalists for their humility and then your post, Ken, again claiming this is all a matter of humility.
I've tried very hard to remain focused in this post and keep people's minds fixed on why Truth matters. We cannot rend Truth from humility, although I grant that their can be Truth without humility.
I also think, that in this dialogue, people ought to read for themselves what CH wrote because the repeated charge that "...I just don't want people to keep saying repent, repent, repent..." is simply uncharitable. A man ought to be condemned for the spirit and manner in which he did something and not be charged repeatedly for something because it struck an emotional chord.
I'm not ending this debate but I am going to put my foot down. If people want to discuss the merits/demerits of being certain of what we believe and whether we should ever say another man is sinning then let's do that. BUT, I refuse to continue to allow CH to be drug through the mud in this thread as if the genesis of this whole dialogue was his uncharitableness. It was not and it is clear to anyone who reads both his words and the beginning of this thread.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
If this wasn't so sad I would be laughing, seriously. I think much is getting lost in the translation of posts here. I will try and be as simple about it as I can.
1) It was never about uncharitableness, it was about me making a simple request of CH (and truthfully of anyone involved in the discussion) to not start calling for repentance simply because it COULD lead to that happening over and over. I didn't say it did lead to that, simply that it could. I didn't say what side was right and what side was wrong (or in sin or not in sin)
2) CH decided to repeat this charge after I asked him not to do so. At that point it shouldn't matter who agreed with me and who didn't because I didn't get an e-mail or private message telling me I was wrong in asking him not to do so. For anyone with more authority than me to make such a statement in the thread was inappropriate and unprofessional. Even at this point in time no one has contacted me to "officially" tell me that I was "wrong". It's all been done publicly.
3) I made the mistake of bringing my personal struggle with baptism into the thread. It was a mistake because a few people jumped all over it and decided to turn my simple request into a discussion on confessions based on their knowledge of my struggle.
4) I've been told that as a member of the PCA I am "permitted" to question parts of our confession as I study it. If this is indeed true, my struggle with paedobaptism should not be brought into the request that I made for CH to stop calling for repentance in order to "understand".
5)
Hog wash
It's not about striking an "emotional chord'. This is what a few people here need to learn, when you say things like "If you repent of what you believe you will then come to understand the truth" that's not confessionalism that's arrogance and pride, even if it's true! I work with kids for a living and much of what they believe and feel is foolishness, but I can promise you that I am not going to get them to the truth by simply stating that. Neither are any of you going to do so with brothers and sisters in Christ. A lost soul bound by sin...sure they may need to hear that! But a brother or sister who is admittedly struggling certainly does not need to be told this. I don't care how many letters you have after your name, if you don't realize this you are in error and need to re-evaluate.
Now, that said, it is especially true amongst RABID Presbyterian and Baptists in a BAPTISM forum! We need to remain truthful but charitable in our discussions and it doesn't matter what your "intent" is, telling one another to repent in order to see the truth comes across in a short, agitated way as if you are scolding those who are merely seeking truth on a matter.
I am soooooo thankful for the few of you who can see this point. But I'm done. You can remove my moderator status. Go on and call one another to repentance all day long every single say. I won't have a part of condoning it in the name of "truth telling". I will never venture into the baptism forum again either as it is a dwelling place of pride.
1) It was never about uncharitableness, it was about me making a simple request of CH (and truthfully of anyone involved in the discussion) to not start calling for repentance simply because it COULD lead to that happening over and over. I didn't say it did lead to that, simply that it could. I didn't say what side was right and what side was wrong (or in sin or not in sin)
2) CH decided to repeat this charge after I asked him not to do so. At that point it shouldn't matter who agreed with me and who didn't because I didn't get an e-mail or private message telling me I was wrong in asking him not to do so. For anyone with more authority than me to make such a statement in the thread was inappropriate and unprofessional. Even at this point in time no one has contacted me to "officially" tell me that I was "wrong". It's all been done publicly.
3) I made the mistake of bringing my personal struggle with baptism into the thread. It was a mistake because a few people jumped all over it and decided to turn my simple request into a discussion on confessions based on their knowledge of my struggle.
4) I've been told that as a member of the PCA I am "permitted" to question parts of our confession as I study it. If this is indeed true, my struggle with paedobaptism should not be brought into the request that I made for CH to stop calling for repentance in order to "understand".
5)
Hog wash
It's not about striking an "emotional chord'. This is what a few people here need to learn, when you say things like "If you repent of what you believe you will then come to understand the truth" that's not confessionalism that's arrogance and pride, even if it's true! I work with kids for a living and much of what they believe and feel is foolishness, but I can promise you that I am not going to get them to the truth by simply stating that. Neither are any of you going to do so with brothers and sisters in Christ. A lost soul bound by sin...sure they may need to hear that! But a brother or sister who is admittedly struggling certainly does not need to be told this. I don't care how many letters you have after your name, if you don't realize this you are in error and need to re-evaluate.
Now, that said, it is especially true amongst RABID Presbyterian and Baptists in a BAPTISM forum! We need to remain truthful but charitable in our discussions and it doesn't matter what your "intent" is, telling one another to repent in order to see the truth comes across in a short, agitated way as if you are scolding those who are merely seeking truth on a matter.
I am soooooo thankful for the few of you who can see this point. But I'm done. You can remove my moderator status. Go on and call one another to repentance all day long every single say. I won't have a part of condoning it in the name of "truth telling". I will never venture into the baptism forum again either as it is a dwelling place of pride.
Is arrogance a sin? Is pride a sin? Is lack of humility a sin? Is to call people arrogant, a number of times, repeatedly calling them sinners?
Stopped what? Calling people to repent of something? Did he call them arrogant? Did he call them proud?
Simple? He started asking you "Adam, why is this bad?"
You started a thread calling him arrogant.
Yes, it's been done publicly because you, PUBLICLY, keep calling people prideful and arrogant. I gave you ample opportunity to tone it down and to see what you were doing. People can read this thread for what it is Adam. They will see how patient I've been throughout. I was not angry with you. I was simply pointing out Confessionalism. I'm also pointing out to you how, contrary to your injunction to CH NOT to do so, you are calling people sinners left and right in this thread.
Again, people are sinners according to you Adam. They are arrogant and pride. You are calling people sinners in contrast to your call that we not do so.
Also, I would like to see, precisely, where anyone said: "If you merely repented you would see this...." Where Adam? You may levy accusations all you want. This was not done in an alley. All of these posts are in the open.
Like telling people, repeatedly, that they are arrogant, prideful, not humble? Are those the kinds of things you wouldn't want to do with your kids?
Now we're RABID too. We're uncharitable as opposed to the charitableness of your posts in this thread. One man made the horrible mistake of stating to another that "...you should repent of this..." and this warrants all of this vitriol?
I suggest you cool down and read this in a few days and see how you feel about all of this afterward.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I simply have stated time and again how saying things the way they can be said here from time to time "comes across" as arrogant. I don't think I am alone in this opinion as I've seen others say very similar things; funny thing is those people have been thanked for reminding us to examine ourselves. I've been questioned and maligned, but NOT until my position on baptism came out, I don't think that's a coincidence.
Yes, I have blatantly said that the baptism forum is full of pride, but I've said that in the past, more than once. I'll go further; I think it's so full of it we sin by allowing its existence on this board. It's not the least bit profitable and in fact has been the cause of MUCH division since I've been here.
As for patience, I've been patient since my first post here in regard to the haughty attitude some posts contain and I thought I had earned (and deserved) enough respect to be able to say that now, maybe I'm wrong in that thought. Then again, maybe it's only a select few who cannot handle that from me because I'm "ignorant"?
Yes, I have blatantly said that the baptism forum is full of pride, but I've said that in the past, more than once. I'll go further; I think it's so full of it we sin by allowing its existence on this board. It's not the least bit profitable and in fact has been the cause of MUCH division since I've been here.
As for patience, I've been patient since my first post here in regard to the haughty attitude some posts contain and I thought I had earned (and deserved) enough respect to be able to say that now, maybe I'm wrong in that thought. Then again, maybe it's only a select few who cannot handle that from me because I'm "ignorant"?
Yet again Adam, you accuse others of sin. I'm amazed that this thread started with you being angry that another brother is arrogant by calling another brother to repent of sin in the Baptism forum. What do you do? You export that attitude, in a far more violent form, into the theological forum. You accuse the Admins and Mods now of sin for merely allowing the Baptism forum to exist.
Haughty...
Cannot handle it...
Who is haughty? Who is prideful Adam?
You like to label people as sinners. Would you like to back up the charge so that some of us can repent of some sins that you're aware of and you are not?
I admit to sin in the Baptism forum. I've sinned repeatedly in that forum and have always repented, in open forum, to any brothers who have asked me to. It is a consequential issue and deserves attention.
Who, specifically, needs to repent of pride and for what statement Adam?
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Yes, I think we ALL sin in the baptism forum and we ALL sin allowing it to exist. I can't make it any simpler than that. Here's the thing though, no one made a post here saying "Ahhh Baptism thread drives me crazy!" and then went on to tell us how they struggled with this forum and wanted advice on how to handle it, to then have me tell them they were being driven crazy because they needed to repent! If they would only repent then they could get on the road to understanding why it was they felt the way that they did.
Rich, are you baiting me to tell you that I think you are being haughty and arrogant? Fine, I think you are. It's plainly evident that you cannot handle anything I've said in regard to any of this, no matter how patient you claim to have been, and your constant need to remind me of what I am saying (I know what I am saying), label me as unable to understand (in several instances), and refusing to take a moderators side on an issue (at least in public) tells me you're prideful, at least in this instance with me.
In total honesty (since you seem to be begging me for it) I think you've always had a slight issue with me going back to the Ann Coulter threads. I don't know what the issue is really, but I suspect you think I'm an idiot, at least that's how it seems to me and always has. I’ve gotten some “advice” from others in this thread and private messages yet it is only you who have actually attacked me in this fashion, that says a lot to me.
Rich, are you baiting me to tell you that I think you are being haughty and arrogant? Fine, I think you are. It's plainly evident that you cannot handle anything I've said in regard to any of this, no matter how patient you claim to have been, and your constant need to remind me of what I am saying (I know what I am saying), label me as unable to understand (in several instances), and refusing to take a moderators side on an issue (at least in public) tells me you're prideful, at least in this instance with me.
In total honesty (since you seem to be begging me for it) I think you've always had a slight issue with me going back to the Ann Coulter threads. I don't know what the issue is really, but I suspect you think I'm an idiot, at least that's how it seems to me and always has. I’ve gotten some “advice” from others in this thread and private messages yet it is only you who have actually attacked me in this fashion, that says a lot to me.
Well, I'm sorry Adam if I'm come across as haughty and arrogant to you in this thread Adam. I wasn't baiting you. I'm simply amazed that you are so quick to label people as sinners.
I never, once, not a single time, labelled you as being unable to understand a thing. Not once. I asked you if you had studied the WCF and the Heidelberg. I think you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. I was shocked at your response. If I had known it was going to be construed in the manner it was I would have never typed it. You asked questions about Apostasy and I was trying to make them plain. I asked if you had studied the Confession because I thought the Confession was plain - it says the same thing I typed but in better language. and thought it would help you.
On the Coulter thing, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think you're an idiot. Since you said that publicly, I'm telling you publicly that I don't think you're an idiot.
Adam, I'm not doing this in private because your repeated insistence that CH was arrogant was done very publicly. CH even tried to PM you and you re-buffed his attempts.
I'm sorry if you don't like that I'm pointing out that you have been very mean on this thread. I'm a man with much pride yet to mortify. I've left all my prideful statements in the Baptism forums and elsewhere for all to see so they can see a sinner still in need of sanctification. They can also see a sinner who has repented to the men and women that he has been arrogant and uncharitable to.
Has my method been up front here. Yes. I've thought about the fact that I'm probably making you more angry but I've laid out clearly and dispassionately where you have been mean-spirited. I believe, as a man who likewise says arrogant things at times, that I have some warrant to demand out of you no less than I demand of myself. If you are going to continually and publicly upbraid men on this forum to quit being arrogant and uncharitable then you ought to have your feet held to the fire, publicly, to do no less.
Forgive me for ruining whatever friendship we had in this process because I consider you a friend and I do respect you, which is why I haven't pulled your Mod privileges and will let others do so if they desire. It's also the reason I've never been afraid to share things in the Mod forums that I won't share anywhere else because I trust you. I started out gently, Adam, but every gentle nudge has been met with increasing antipathy toward me. God forgive me if this is all my fault but my intent has been to merely have you acknowledge what I think has been fairly obvious.
CalvinandHodges
Puritan Board Junior
Greetings:
I think you both have pointed out the way of the Kingdom of God. I have always been quick to point out when I am wrong on a matter:
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=20221&page=2
post #95. Changed my position, and moved on. Peter, for example, was not too proud to accept rebuke from Paul.
Basic Eschatological postions that are enunciated in the Creeds such as: The Resurrection of the body, of the just and unjust, and the Final Judgment day can be found in the Apostle's, the Nicene, the Athanasian, and in the Westminister Confession of Faith. The only Eschatological position that I know of that denies these future events is Full Preterism. Thus, to call a Full Preterist to repentance on these matters is not inconsistent with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Blessings,
-CH
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Rich, before my launching into my personal baptism beliefs/struggles, was what you think is "obvious" now as "obvious" then?
What I thought was "obvious" (again, maybe a bad choice of words) was not the Baptism thing but the fact that you were actually the party that was pretty spun up and needed to tone it down. Every post has been with the attempt to try and get you to see that things aren't so "us v. them".
Frank admission to all here: I don't normally backchannel PM people. I know a lot of you do it when you're discussing threads. It's just never been my style. That can be a good thing because I don't believe in saying things behind people's backs that I won't say to their face. It can be a bad thing too because sometimes a PM will calm a person down. I need to get better at it but I'm not in the habit of it.
This has been a sanctifying experience for me. I sometimes am impatient but in this thread and the apostasy thread I was trying to be gentle. I knew you were hitting back at me when I wasn't trying to fight you but I kept trying to be patient. It wasn't until today that I finally broke out a bit and let my frustration about your name-calling get to me.
The only PM I've written in this whole thing was to Bruce and Matt sincerely apologizing for gooning this whole thing up. I was trying to help in this Adam. I was trying to be nice. I was trying to get you to see how you were calling people about the worst sins imaginable: prideful and arrogant. The very sins that led to the Fall of Mankind.
I wish I had done a better job and I feel miserable for it. Forgive me for not being wiser in my method.
Frank admission to all here: I don't normally backchannel PM people. I know a lot of you do it when you're discussing threads. It's just never been my style. That can be a good thing because I don't believe in saying things behind people's backs that I won't say to their face. It can be a bad thing too because sometimes a PM will calm a person down. I need to get better at it but I'm not in the habit of it.
This has been a sanctifying experience for me. I sometimes am impatient but in this thread and the apostasy thread I was trying to be gentle. I knew you were hitting back at me when I wasn't trying to fight you but I kept trying to be patient. It wasn't until today that I finally broke out a bit and let my frustration about your name-calling get to me.
The only PM I've written in this whole thing was to Bruce and Matt sincerely apologizing for gooning this whole thing up. I was trying to help in this Adam. I was trying to be nice. I was trying to get you to see how you were calling people about the worst sins imaginable: prideful and arrogant. The very sins that led to the Fall of Mankind.
I wish I had done a better job and I feel miserable for it. Forgive me for not being wiser in my method.
Ken,
I read what you wrote until you edited it. I didn't intend to call you simple (or anyone else here). I'm also very emotional even though I appreciate you believe I can analyze things well. Because I'm very emotional, I understand why other people get emotional about things. It's also the reason I attempt to anticipate the emotional response to something because it's a response that I'll make.
I know I try to write clearly but often fail as witnessed by what you interpreted from my response. Some of it was to be read by you, some of it was by Adam but I don't always address people directly. I respond to certain posts and then speak generally without switching audiences. In that sense, I'm like Paul I suppose, except he was an Apostle and allowed to do such things while I need to work on being clearer.
At the very least, this thread has stiffened my resolve to be more charitable in the Baptism forum. I know I help sometimes there but I also hinder with my impatience. Please continue to pray that God will mortify the latter.
I read what you wrote until you edited it. I didn't intend to call you simple (or anyone else here). I'm also very emotional even though I appreciate you believe I can analyze things well. Because I'm very emotional, I understand why other people get emotional about things. It's also the reason I attempt to anticipate the emotional response to something because it's a response that I'll make.
I know I try to write clearly but often fail as witnessed by what you interpreted from my response. Some of it was to be read by you, some of it was by Adam but I don't always address people directly. I respond to certain posts and then speak generally without switching audiences. In that sense, I'm like Paul I suppose, except he was an Apostle and allowed to do such things while I need to work on being clearer.
At the very least, this thread has stiffened my resolve to be more charitable in the Baptism forum. I know I help sometimes there but I also hinder with my impatience. Please continue to pray that God will mortify the latter.
Gloria
Puritan Board Sophomore
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
But Rich, the baptism forum is 100% "Us vs Them", it's the entire premise of the forum. In fact, I think it may be seen as a "tool" to win those fooled into the credo position by Satan. If I had known that from the start, I think I could have accepted it. I believed it was a place for friendly brother to brother (or sister) debate and discussion, not a place to win converts for the "real" truth.
As for the "worst sins" I've never seen those sins in that way. I thought the only sin the bible seems to say something particular about (in regard to other sins) were sexual sins.
Here's where I am right now, not just here at PB but in my walk completely.
I used to be a wacky dispensational Arminian. I meant well, but I didn't know much about anything besides Christ Crucified. I was a teacher of "easy believism" because I wanted that to be true or else I was a failure as a witness. As I came to understand the doctrines of grace I became so vigilant in teaching it that Scott Bushy actually had to personally call me to help me calm down and stop alienating people in my life (outside the PB).
Now that I've matured (maybe not fully) I've come to see "reformed theologies" issues, those being pride and arrogance. I'm sorry, but it's just how I see it. The desire for deeper and deeper education leads to a position of "we've got it ALL figured out". Well, it may not "actually" lead to that, but it definitely comes across that way. I know members who will not post here because they feel "too stupid". I think this should alarm us. I have held back often thinking someone who roll their spiritual eyes at me and "tsk tsk" over the stupid childcare workers remarks, and honestly I've never felt that way in my life! I am shocked I am even admitting to feeling that way on occasion.
Now, I don't think anyone should get upset at that observation because many here have made it in the past to no uproar. That's why I believed you thought I was an idiot Rich, because if Trevor makes a similar statement, or Josh, it's ok, it's a call to vigilance! If Adam makes it, whoa baby, Katie bar the doors!
I have been annoyed through all this but not real angry. In fact if I can sum up my emotion it would be hurt and disappointed. I thought I had more respect here than I seem to have (if not respect, what ever word would better fit).
After all of this, I still feel asking CH to stop saying what he was saying because it COULD (notice I said COULD) lead to that call going back and forth is a good and right request that should have been respected by him and backed up by other mods and admins.
It is by that statement that you (or whomever) should determine my moderator status.
As for the "worst sins" I've never seen those sins in that way. I thought the only sin the bible seems to say something particular about (in regard to other sins) were sexual sins.
Here's where I am right now, not just here at PB but in my walk completely.
I used to be a wacky dispensational Arminian. I meant well, but I didn't know much about anything besides Christ Crucified. I was a teacher of "easy believism" because I wanted that to be true or else I was a failure as a witness. As I came to understand the doctrines of grace I became so vigilant in teaching it that Scott Bushy actually had to personally call me to help me calm down and stop alienating people in my life (outside the PB).
Now that I've matured (maybe not fully) I've come to see "reformed theologies" issues, those being pride and arrogance. I'm sorry, but it's just how I see it. The desire for deeper and deeper education leads to a position of "we've got it ALL figured out". Well, it may not "actually" lead to that, but it definitely comes across that way. I know members who will not post here because they feel "too stupid". I think this should alarm us. I have held back often thinking someone who roll their spiritual eyes at me and "tsk tsk" over the stupid childcare workers remarks, and honestly I've never felt that way in my life! I am shocked I am even admitting to feeling that way on occasion.
Now, I don't think anyone should get upset at that observation because many here have made it in the past to no uproar. That's why I believed you thought I was an idiot Rich, because if Trevor makes a similar statement, or Josh, it's ok, it's a call to vigilance! If Adam makes it, whoa baby, Katie bar the doors!
I have been annoyed through all this but not real angry. In fact if I can sum up my emotion it would be hurt and disappointed. I thought I had more respect here than I seem to have (if not respect, what ever word would better fit).
After all of this, I still feel asking CH to stop saying what he was saying because it COULD (notice I said COULD) lead to that call going back and forth is a good and right request that should have been respected by him and backed up by other mods and admins.
It is by that statement that you (or whomever) should determine my moderator status.
Barnpreacher
Puritan Board Junior
I think a lot of people saw where you were coming from when you did this, Adam. You thought you were acting in the best interests of the Puritan Board, which is your job as moderator.
You've always struck me as humble and willing to learn. I hope this doesn't change your relationship to this board because I think you're an asset to it.
Adam,
That I ever make people feel stupid, I want to repent to any or all who have ever felt that way and never said so.
That I find this board incredibly useful and incredibly frustrating is without question. Regarding "respect", we've all gotten punched in the stomach now and again. I've been admonished repeatedly. I just don't see it as a respect issue. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. That was not my intent. I do wish you would see that your use of language and accusations of pride and arrogance as being more serious but I won't continue to press that.
I have two personas: the one that fights for truth among people when I'm trying to do my best to let others help me figure out what the Scriptures say and then the other that has to reach out and teach the members of my Church.
I'll be honest with you Adam, I wouldn't recommend just anyone read or participate in every forum.
I bounce between frustration at the peculiarities of certain doctrines but then thankfulness for some as well.
I'm not trying to plug my own teaching but if you doubt my passion for other Brothers then please listen to the end of my Romans 6 and Romans 7 teachings when other brothers are asking me questions. I don't know if you can hear them when they talk about how powerful the message is and how liberating the knowledge of God's salvation is.
I said goodbye to a couple that is going back to VA soon. They'll be going back to a 10,000 member Church in Northern VA. I cried over them when I was saying goodbye to them because, for 2 years, I've been investing knowledge of the Scriptures in them. The young man said something that made all of it worth it: "One thing that Rich helped me to understand is that I focus on my own works when Satan is assaulting me. He taught me to look to Christ and believe the Gospel."
I'm violent about the Truth in dialogues here because I believe I'm fighting for something that is worth fighting for. I was the front man at our Church to put out of our midst the man who was preaching for us because he refused to pay his rent. I feared I had rent the Church asunder at the time but I went in, lovingly, with the deacons and told them what the issue was and we all embraced and prayed. I even went in front of the entire Church and told them that I was sorry if it appeared anything other than intended. I got tearful hugs from all. People respect Truth because nobody fights for people anymore on the basis of Truth.
So, I just don't really want to be a part of a forum that is all over the map and has a bunch of members saying: "Well you have Truth but we love Jesus...." I don't want to be a part of a forum that is filled with Pastors of Churches who are preaching about self-fulfilment and other inconsequential things just so long as they don't have to deal with Truth that divides.
So, I'm thankful for some of the fights. It's refreshing to be bloodied against another man that loves Truth as much as you are and wants to fight for it because he's in the habit of fighting for it amongst others who won't fight for themselves anymore. It's refreshing to find men who stand up and say: Here is what I confess. I believe it because God wrote it! It's refreshing to be a part of a board where no theological subject is "too divisive": you know, messy things like election.
I count Baptists on this boards as some of my best friends. I love Ivan, Bill, Trevor, Ryan, Joshua, Vic, you, and countless others. I don't dislike them because they're passionate about Baptism. I respect them. I respect them because they take their convictions into a world that tells them: you can't be convicted about anything! and they say: "Watch me!"
And I love them because, after we're done opening the Word together and sharpening our minds against one another, we're able to repent when our arguments were really not arguments but sinful assertaions. We're able to say: I repent. We're able to say: I forgive you. And all our pride is turned to dust at the feet of our common Savior.
That I ever make people feel stupid, I want to repent to any or all who have ever felt that way and never said so.
That I find this board incredibly useful and incredibly frustrating is without question. Regarding "respect", we've all gotten punched in the stomach now and again. I've been admonished repeatedly. I just don't see it as a respect issue. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. That was not my intent. I do wish you would see that your use of language and accusations of pride and arrogance as being more serious but I won't continue to press that.
I have two personas: the one that fights for truth among people when I'm trying to do my best to let others help me figure out what the Scriptures say and then the other that has to reach out and teach the members of my Church.
I'll be honest with you Adam, I wouldn't recommend just anyone read or participate in every forum.
I bounce between frustration at the peculiarities of certain doctrines but then thankfulness for some as well.
I'm not trying to plug my own teaching but if you doubt my passion for other Brothers then please listen to the end of my Romans 6 and Romans 7 teachings when other brothers are asking me questions. I don't know if you can hear them when they talk about how powerful the message is and how liberating the knowledge of God's salvation is.
I said goodbye to a couple that is going back to VA soon. They'll be going back to a 10,000 member Church in Northern VA. I cried over them when I was saying goodbye to them because, for 2 years, I've been investing knowledge of the Scriptures in them. The young man said something that made all of it worth it: "One thing that Rich helped me to understand is that I focus on my own works when Satan is assaulting me. He taught me to look to Christ and believe the Gospel."
I'm violent about the Truth in dialogues here because I believe I'm fighting for something that is worth fighting for. I was the front man at our Church to put out of our midst the man who was preaching for us because he refused to pay his rent. I feared I had rent the Church asunder at the time but I went in, lovingly, with the deacons and told them what the issue was and we all embraced and prayed. I even went in front of the entire Church and told them that I was sorry if it appeared anything other than intended. I got tearful hugs from all. People respect Truth because nobody fights for people anymore on the basis of Truth.
So, I just don't really want to be a part of a forum that is all over the map and has a bunch of members saying: "Well you have Truth but we love Jesus...." I don't want to be a part of a forum that is filled with Pastors of Churches who are preaching about self-fulfilment and other inconsequential things just so long as they don't have to deal with Truth that divides.
So, I'm thankful for some of the fights. It's refreshing to be bloodied against another man that loves Truth as much as you are and wants to fight for it because he's in the habit of fighting for it amongst others who won't fight for themselves anymore. It's refreshing to find men who stand up and say: Here is what I confess. I believe it because God wrote it! It's refreshing to be a part of a board where no theological subject is "too divisive": you know, messy things like election.
I count Baptists on this boards as some of my best friends. I love Ivan, Bill, Trevor, Ryan, Joshua, Vic, you, and countless others. I don't dislike them because they're passionate about Baptism. I respect them. I respect them because they take their convictions into a world that tells them: you can't be convicted about anything! and they say: "Watch me!"
And I love them because, after we're done opening the Word together and sharpening our minds against one another, we're able to repent when our arguments were really not arguments but sinful assertaions. We're able to say: I repent. We're able to say: I forgive you. And all our pride is turned to dust at the feet of our common Savior.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
If you were looking for a post to make me stop posting, this was it. Well, except for this post. I have something minor yet to discuss with you but I'll U2U it.
How did you do that? Do you have some super power? That kind of puts me at a disadvantage.
For the record, since other folks cannot see my edited post, I never thought you called me simple. I was explaining to you that I am simple and that there may be subtleties in the above arguments that fly right over my head.
You have to know Rich that your presence is intimidating in a thread because of your position as 'big kahuna' around here and also because of your rhetorical abilities.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Ok, now it's just getting too sappy in here!
I almost threw my back out laughing so hard about that!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
