Art Azurdia resigns

[Paul1976]

Hi All,


I checked the Christian Daily Reporter this morning, and there was a link to a post from Art Azurdia's Trinity Church of Portland. Apparently, he has resigned due to a sexually immoral relationship. The post is here on the church's website.

http://www.trinityportland.com/blog...from-the-elders-of-trinity-church-of-portland

I have to admit I'm more than a bit stunned. I listen to about 5-6 sermons per week in my car, and Azurdia's sermons have consistently been my favorites. In terms of ability to powerfully, clearly, and passionately preach God's word, I have not found a better pastor. I'm finding myself shell-shocked this morning. I know that the best of men are men at best (I believe Art Azurdia used that line a time or two in his preaching), and many great men of God have failed in a variety of ways, but am still not sure what to think.

Please keep Art and especially his congregation in your prayers.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

This is a very sad occasion. Many have been blessed by brother Azurdia's preaching.

But I think it should be made clear that he did not resign, he was removed.

I only point this out for the following reasons:
- Truth and accuracy are important.
- It is to the credit of the church and its leadership that they took action and did not cover up or minimize the scandal as some other churches would have been prone to do.

I hope that we all keep brother Azurdia, his family, and his church in our prayers that he might come to true repentance and find forgiveness and also restoration where appropriate.

 

[Paul1976]

But I think it should be made clear that he did not resign, he was removed.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't read carefully enough on that front. I fully agree with everything you said.

 

[Pergamum]

Just to clarify further, the statement reads, "Art admitted to the immorality. He also admitted to a previous sexually immoral relationship." So this does not sound like a one-time stumble but a "relationship"..and more than 1.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I checked the Christian Daily Reporter this morning, and there was a link to a post from Art Azurdia's Trinity Church of Portland. Apparently, he has resigned due to a sexually immoral relationship.

This just seems to be happening over and over again. It hit home to me personally several weeks ago as my wife read the bombshell letter from a broken-hearted Christian wife that her husband, my former pastor, and friend, a published author, and a respected man, had left his wife, his family and the ministry for another woman. What a stupid, stupid, vain crust of bread to trade a family and fruitful ministry for.

The pastor's daughter shared with me that she is so convinced that her father is a true Son of God that she expects him to repent in the future. Big deal. I guess I shouldn't say that but the damage is done and nothing even his repentance will restore, except maybe to his immediate family, will benefit our very needy modern Church.

He may be restored someday, but his life's "work shall be burned" up. Maybe "he himself shall be saved; yet [it must be] so as by fire." (1 Cor. 3:15) What a friggin waste. For what? A little sex? A younger girl? He traded a foundation of rock for one of shifting sand.

Let me tell you a short Bible story that this whole matter reminds me of.

Remember King Manasseh? He became king in Judah after his exemplary father King Hezekiah died. (2 Kings 20:21) This took place shortly after God did away with the Northern kingdom once and for all. You'de think that Manasseh would have had at least some fear of God. It is almost impossible to overstate how wicked King Manasseh became. Oh, and get a load of God's providence in making Manasseh the longest reigning king of all time—North and South—55 years. You have to ask why God allowed this long reign, but that is for a study of Ecclesiastes.

Manasseh made it his mission in life to undo the reforms of his father, and to do all sorts of evil. Hezekiah had destroyed shrines of pagan worship throughout the land; Manasseh rebuilt them, also adding shrines to Baal and Asherah (like Ahab and Jezebel did). He desecrated the LORD's temple by putting altars for idol worship in it. He sacrificed his own sons, burning them to death in the worship of the idol Molech. Manasseh murdered so many people that the historian wrote that he “filled Jerusalem from one end to the other” with innocent blood. Take a minute to read about this yourself in 2 Kings 21. I consider him the worst king in all Israel's history,–North and South. And then his son Amon was just as sick as his father, only God took him out after only two years as king. He was so wicked his own servants murdered him. (2 Kings 21:23)

But here's my point. There is no hint of this in Kings, but tucked away in the more positive books of the Chronicles is a report of his end-of-life repentance. (2 Chron. 33:18-19) But I said I had a point, didn't I?

Here's the moral of the story and I beg you to listen to me. Manasseh may be in heaven when we get there, but his whole life was a wast—worse than a wast. If you are playing with fire, or you know somebody who is, Today is the only day you have to get it right. For some, the Lord may restore the years the locust have eaten, but he may not. Sin may have slain his thousands, but presumption his ten thousands. There is a time when it is too late–when you are too far gone. And that's just the end of the story. Only God knows when that time is.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

==========

Maybe it is time that the Church took more seriously the role of Satan in our lives–All of our lives. I squandered much of my early life in sin and prayerlessness, and I have reaped the consequences in my own family.

I think we can safely say, because of Jesus' temptations directed at him by the Devil in-person, that the higher your calling, the more public your ministry, the more force Satan and his demons apply to cause you to fall.

I invite you to come over and visit the thread, The Reality of Satan—Then and Now,
which I hoped would be even busier than it has been.

==========

A final note. Please don't accuse me of hard heartedness over the fall of Art Azurdia. I cried my eyes out when I hear of my friends fall. It breaks my heart more than you could know. But we have to stop this.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Ed, was he older or in his forties / early fifties (hope don't know him)? There's a rash of this and other dissatisfaction leading to men just up and leaving the ministry, or wives, or even just checking out; Andy Webb has a video on it.

This just seems to be happening over and over again. It hit home to me personally several weeks ago as my wife read the bombshell letter from a broken-hearted Christian wife that her husband, my former pastor, and friend, a published author, and a respected man, had left his wife, his family and the ministry for another woman. What a stupid, stupid, vain crust of bread to trade a family and fruitful ministry for.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Ed, was he older or in his forties / early fifties (hope don't know him)

early fifties. As I recall, the departure began about 5 years ago.

 

[Dachaser]

Hi All,


I checked the Christian Daily Reporter this morning, and there was a link to a post from Art Azurdia's Trinity Church of Portland. Apparently, he has resigned due to a sexually immoral relationship. The post is here on the church's website.

http://www.trinityportland.com/blog...from-the-elders-of-trinity-church-of-portland

I have to admit I'm more than a bit stunned. I listen to about 5-6 sermons per week in my car, and Azurdia's sermons have consistently been my favorites. In terms of ability to powerfully, clearly, and passionately preach God's word, I have not found a better pastor. I'm finding myself shell-shocked this morning. I know that the best of men are men at best (I believe Art Azurdia used that line a time or two in his preaching), and many great men of God have failed in a variety of ways, but am still not sure what to think.

Please keep Art and especially his congregation in your prayers.

This proves the truth of 1 Corinthians 10:12, and also is a warning to any of us that we must be sure to not allow ourselves to get tangles up in the snares of satan for our lives, as what starts out at first as just innocent flirting, moves to emotional intimacy, and finally flown blown physical one.
God is into restoration of fallen saints, but just see King David, even if restored, there is grave consequences that must be dealt with even after restoration.

 

[ZackF]

Ed, was he older or in his forties / early fifties (hope don't know him)? There's a rash of this and other dissatisfaction leading to men just up and leaving the ministry, or wives, or even just checking out; Andy Webb has a video on it.

I get this just seems like another one bites the dust in rapid succession. Is this truly more common now than before? Or has the internet made it seem so? Thirty years ago Arzurdia's fall could have taken weeks or longer to make its way through the evangelical world. Apostasies, falls and failures are nothing new.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

If it was as common, I would posit that the aim to avoid scandal might have kept such notices from the histories; but I don't think it was as common. Maybe I'm wrong but churches did not avoid enough details in discipline cases of fallen ministers for us to see examples. There are notices (not recalling specifics except the famous case of a Scottish minister in the days of Knox murdering his wife and trying to cover it up comes to mind). I think there are all sorts of avenues to speculate why this is the case.

I get this just seems like another one bites the dust in rapid succession. Is this truly more common now than before? Or has the internet made it seem so? Thirty years ago Arzurdia's fall could have taken weeks or longer to make its way through the evangelical world. Apostasies, falls and failures are nothing new.

 

[ZackF]

If it was as common, I would posit that the aim to avoid scandal might have kept such notices from the histories; but I don't think it was as common. Maybe I'm wrong but churches did not avoid enough details in discipline cases of fallen ministers for us to see examples. There are notices (not recalling specifics except the famous case of a Scottish minister in the days of Knox murdering his wife and trying to cover it up comes to mind). I think there are all sorts of avenues to speculate why this is the case.

Beeke gave a talk on Puritan sexual morality where he discussed some of this stuff particularly premarital sex. It was infrequent compared to nowadays but more common than one would think. If kids did it and were caught they were expected to marry.

I'm sure the general relaxing of social mores and accepted Christian teaching on this has lowered inhibitions some. When a pastor can fall and months later be preaching again or at least move in with his mistress and start selling insurance in the same city we can say there is not the same social disaster as the consequences of adultery there once was.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

I know that the best of men are men at best (I believe Art Azurdia used that line a time or two in his preaching), and many great men of God have failed in a variety of ways, but am still not sure what to think.

Would you be so kind as to elucidate on what you mean by "still not sure what to think?" About what, and in what respect?

I've heard good men say that one can't preach soundly and live wrongly. But I've known a number of men who've apparently done so, until discovered. We must stop comforting ourselves with this nostrum.

No matter how one appears outwardly, all of us must live truly and honestly unto God for love of Him and His glory. We must stop being willing to impress others with appearing godly but not really being godly (like Ananias and Sapphira).

I think that we need to cultivate the twin virtues of recognizing our own native wretchedness and misery (recognizing that in the case of any fall, there but for the grace of God go I) as well as an utter intolerance of our own sin that does not spell a lack of sympathy for fellow sinners but refuses to let sin proceed unmortified in us.

How we all need to cultivate (I certainly do) that mindset of CHS who said "ten thousand pounds of suffering are to be preferred to one ounce of sin." I want to make no peace with my mountain of sin (though even here, my desire is quite imperfectly and inconsistently realized) and want it mortified in my heart and life. This is the only place of safety, wisdom, and righteousness.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Dachaser]

Would you be so kind as to elucidate on what you mean by "still not sure what to think?" About what, and in what respect?

I've heard good men say that one can't preach soundly and live wrongly. But I've known a number of men who've apparently done so, until discovered. We must stop comforting ourselves with this nostrum.

No matter how one appears outwardly, all of us must live truly and honestly unto God for love of Him and His glory. We must stop being willing to impress others with appearing godly but not really being godly (like Ananias and Sapphira).

I think that we need to cultivate the twin virtues of recognizing our own native wretchedness and misery (recognizing that in the case of any fall, there but for the grace of God go I) as well as an utter intolerance of our own sin that does not spell a lack of sympathy for fellow sinners but refuses to let sin proceed unmortified in us.

How we all need to cultivate (I certainly do) that mindset of CHS who said "ten thousand pounds of suffering are to be preferred to one ounce of sin." I want to make no peace with my mountain of sin (though imperfectly and inconsistently so) and want it mortified in my heart and life . This is the only place of safety, wisdom, and righteousness.

Peace,
Alan

I have heard ministers and evangelists testify that while they were living in sin and not confessing and repenting of it, as in adultery, they had little desire to pray or study the bible, but went up to preach and teach , and the Holy spirit still used the scriptures to reach people for Christ. It seems that God honored his word still, and he will share His glory with no man.

 

[Paul1976]

Would you be so kind as to elucidate on what you mean by "still not sure what to think?" About what, and in what respect?

Alan, thanks for asking for clarification. I was pretty stunned to read the news, and needed to leave in 10 minutes so I posted both without time to digest and carefully read the post from the elders at Trinity.

Here is a more developed version of what I was trying to say. When I hear about a pastor with (at best) questionable theology, a high six-figure salary (plus book royalties, honoraria, and so forth) fall into sin, it's easy for me to write that off as an individual who may accept aspects of Christianity and recognized their value for their own self-advancement, but never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as the foundation of their ministry.

Everything about Art suggested he was motivated from an authentic relationship with Christ. He is a gifted enough preacher he could have had a much larger congregation than he did. From a conversation with him as well as several with a friend who attended his church for several years before moving, he kept his church below 300 by starting a church plant every time the church grew too large. He didn't believe he could effectively minister to more than that number. His messages are among the best I've heard. They are rich theologically, Christ-saturated, and gospel-centered. There was no hint that his life was not in conformity with his preaching.

I think reading that yesterday hit me surprisingly hard for at least three reasons I can think of. First, Art was among my favorite preachers to listen to. I've recommended him many times to friends. Was I missing something? Rationally, I know genuine believers in ministry do fall into sin that disqualifies them from leadership. In the case of genuine believers, God will restore them to fellowship with Him, as he did David, although sound churches should not allow them back into leadership.

The second reason reason I think this hit me hard personally involves a good friend from a church I attended when I lived in the Northeast around 12 years ago. I developed a very close friendship with a man from my church and his family. I was new to the area, single, and in need of Christian friends. I found myself invited several times a week on average for dinner with his family. I remain grateful for his good friendship, hospitality, and our many theology discussions which helped me grow. Although we didn't agree on some important points theologically, I developed a deep respect and appreciation for him and his family.

We both moved to different states and didn't keep in close contact. A bit less than two years ago, I learned he was arrested for, and eventually plead guilty to, sexually abusing his two oldest sons who were in their early teens at the time. He's currently serving a 120 year sentence. That also hit me hard. I've written to him on a roughly monthly basis. I'm coming to the conclusion he probably isn't an authentic believer, although I can't be sure. Like Nicodemus, one can know a lot about God's word and believe that information to be true without genuinely knowing Christ. I pray for him most days, and try to consistently point him to Christ and God's grace in my letters.

The final reason is that my family has very clearly and very painfully communicated they have no confidence whatsoever in my judgment. I won't go into details, but their words and especially actions consistently communicate this and attempt to tear down any confidence I have. Moving from a dispensational and "free grace" (of the Zane Hodges variety) theology to reformed theology has made this worse. Having a second person I had looked up to fall into serious sin reopens a deep wound.

Looking over this post, I still don't know if it's clear, even to me, what I mean by "I'm not sure what to think." I did NOT mean that the elders have not acted appropriately in removing Art (at least based on what we currently know). Perhaps I'm, in part, wondering if I should have been more discerning regarding his teaching? I'm also wondering what to do with his recorded sermons which I've found quite profitable.

Theologically, I understand we are all completely dependent on God's grace and that nothing good lives in our flesh apart from God's gracious indwelling through the spirit. I know that the only thing preventing me from falling into the same destructive sin patterns that Art and my friend fell into is God's grace, and nothing in myself.

I also understand that my faith is not in the sand of fellow believers who can and will fail, but in the solid rock of Jesus Christ who is perfectly dependable.

Sorry that I can't even quite put a straightforward question to how this has affected me.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

There was no hint that his life was not in conformity with his preaching.

I appreciate your thought expansion here. It's helpful to see how your thinking about this.

I think that this is a cautionary tale for us all. The quote above should prompt this further thought: how would you presume to know this, knowing him only from a distance?

It may be the case that all who knew him would, to a person, say the same, but perhaps not.

Perhaps I'm, in part, wondering if I should have been more discerning regarding his teaching? I'm also wondering what to do with his recorded sermons which I've found quite profitable.

Do you mean more discerning concerning his teaching or do you really mean his person? And if the latter, how could you have been more discerning about his person at a distance? Perhaps even up close, as you were not his pastor or counselor. The reason that I don't think that you really mean teaching is that the teaching was what it was: either sound (biblically, theologically, etc.) or not. I don't assume that your discernment may be lacking regarding orthodoxy; so how were you supposed at a distance to discern something wrong with his person? This is just not the way it works, brother.

As to his teaching/doctrine: if his sermons are sound, they are sound, and that soundness is to be cherished. We are not Donatists, who think that faulty character nullifies sound doctrine.

I understand that this has been a shock. I know that it's hurtful and even maddening. If he teaching was sound and profitable, it still is. Personally, we pray that he would manifest repentance more and more. All of this reminds us that, even though we look at a great cloud of witnesses, all of whom needed Jesus (as do we), we look to Christ alone.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Dachaser]

I appreciate your thought expansion here. It's helpful to see how your thinking about this.

I think that this is a cautionary tale for us all. The quote above should prompt this further thought: how would you presume to know this, knowing him only from a distance?

It may be the case that all who knew him would, to a person, say the same, but perhaps not.



Do you mean more discerning concerning his teaching or do you really mean his person? And if the latter, how could you have been more discerning about his person at a distance? Perhaps even up close, as you were not his pastor or counselor. The reason that I don't think that you really mean teaching is that the teaching was what it was: either sound (biblically, theologically, etc.) or not. I don't assume that your discernment may be lacking regarding orthodoxy; so how were you supposed at a distance to discern something wrong with his person? This is just not the way it works, brother.

As to his teaching/doctrine: if his sermons are sound, they are sound, and that soundness is to be cherished. We are not Donatists, who think that faulty character nullifies sound doctrine.

I understand that this has been a shock. I know that it's hurtful and even maddening. If he teaching was sound and profitable, it still is. Personally, we pray that he would manifest repentance more and more. All of this reminds us that, even though we look at a great cloud of witnesses, all of whom needed Jesus (as do we), we look to Christ alone.

Peace,
Alan

The judgment of/by God was on his chosen sinful activities, but the Lord will always honor His word if taught correctly.

 

[Ed Walsh]

but the Lord will always honor His word if taught correctly.

Sometimes even when His Word is in the hands of a drunk. Such was my experience when the Lord began to get my attention.

Many years ago as I was about to enter a local diner, a very drunken man looked up at me from the ground where he was sitting (slouching) and with slurred speech said to me, "Seek and ye shall find." Then he repeated those five words a second time. I walked over him and entered the diner. I knew that that was something Jesus once said. From that moment on I could not get the saying out of my mind, and by the grace of God, I began to seek the Lord. Then after several months, I came across a man who's teaching was a bit sounder than the drunks who filled in all the rest of the details for me. Within hours I was a changed person.

 

[puritanpilgrim]

Ed that is an incredible story. It is a sermon illustration waiting to happen.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

@Ed Walsh

That is a great story, Ed.

I've a friend who was about to take his life in a hotel room in the 1970s and heard Jim Bakker on TV. He came to Christ and, later, under much sounder preaching, rendered much service for the Savior: it was Jim and Tammy Faye, however, from whom he first heard the gospel (albeit mangled).

Sorry, off-topic, but I just want to say that the Lord can use what He pleases. He can even use AA's story to warn someone about to fall into like sin or to encourage someone to repent of such or like sin.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Dachaser]

Sometimes even when His Word is in the hands of a drunk. Such was my experience when the Lord began to get my attention.

Many years ago as I was about to enter a local diner, a very drunken man looked up at me from the ground where he was sitting (slouching) and with slurred speech said to me, "Seek and ye shall find." Then he repeated those five words a second time. I walked over him and entered the diner. I knew that that was something Jesus once said. From that moment on I could not get the saying out of my mind, and by the grace of God, I began to seek the Lord. Then after several months, I came across a man who's teaching was a bit sounder than the drunks who filled in all the rest of the details for me. Within hours I was a changed person.

God even used the Donkey to get the message across to His prophet, and wonder just who really was the dumber animal in that story?

 

[Paul1976]

I happened across a pertinent quote from Robert Murray M'Cheyne (one of Dr. Azurdia's favorites) during my reading this morning. "My people's greatest need is my personal holiness."

 

[iainduguid]

I happened across a pertinent quote from Robert Murray M'Cheyne (one of Dr. Azurdia's favorites) during my reading this morning. "My people's greatest need is my personal holiness."

Except...it's not.
I mean I understand what M'Cheyne is saying about the importance of pastors living godly lives as a model to their flock. 1 Timothy 3 is all about that. But if I think my people's greatest need is my personal holiness, I probably have an over inflated view of my importance as their pastor, and I'm setting them up to be devastated when they discover that I'm a normal, sinful Christian, let alone when they hear of a famous pastor falling into sin. My people's greatest need is Christ's perfect righteousness in place of their own and my own. My job as pastor is to point them away from me and my "personal holiness", which is nothing more than filthy rags (a fact of which I become increasingly aware the older I become) to Christ, who will never fail them or let them down. That is a solid foundation that remains sure in the midst of sin and apostasy on all sides.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Except...it's not.
I mean I understand what M'Cheyne is saying about the importance of pastors living godly lives as a model to their flock. 1 Timothy 3 is all about that. But if I think my people's greatest need is my personal holiness, I probably have an over inflated view of my importance as their pastor, and I'm setting them up to be devastated when they discover that I'm a normal, sinful Christian, let alone when they hear of a famous pastor falling into sin. My people's greatest need is Christ's perfect righteousness in place of their own and my own. My job as pastor is to point them away from me and my "personal holiness", which is nothing more than filthy rags (a fact of which I become increasingly aware the older I become) to Christ, who will never fail them or let them down. That is a solid foundation that remains sure in the midst of sin and apostasy on all sides.

I ultimately agree with this, but I definitely wouldn't undermine the importance of love and holiness in the lives of leaders. I have met plenty of people who have left the church for lack of these qualities in the church. After all, for many people, what they think of God is what they see in their pastor. If you ask a lot of people outside the church what hinders them most from coming to the church, they will point to how we are judgemental and hypocritical.

J.R. Miller on a few occasions took over pastoral positions in suffering churches, and in a short amount of time the membership would be in the thousands. He said if you love people with all you are and are willing to do anything for them, they will be willing to follow you anywhere.

If people see Jesus in a pastor, they will follow him and listen to him.

 

[Gforce9]

I ultimately agree with this, but I definitely wouldn't undermine the importance of love and holiness in the lives of leaders. I have met plenty of people who have left the church for lack of these qualities in the church. After all, for many people, what they think of God is what they see in their pastor. If you ask a lot of people outside the church what hinders them most from coming to the church, they will point to how we are judgemental and hypocritical.

J.R. Miller on a few occasions took over pastoral positions in suffering churches, and in a short amount of time the membership would be in the thousands. He said if you love people with all you are and are willing to do anything for them, they will be willing to follow you anywhere.

If people see Jesus in a pastor, they will follow him and listen to him.

Officers should be "followable", so far as they exercise faith. Anything further would be idolatry ala Romans 1, it seems to me. While it makes me personally furious when this kind of scandal emerges (I have been on the receiving end of more infidelity than I care to discuss), Dr. Duguid is right on point: man's greatest need is the Savior, in his active and passive obedience and in his person, not earthly examples as helpful as those may be...... I think you aknowledge that, correct?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Officers should be "followable", so far as they exercise faith. Anything further would be idolatry ala Romans 1, it seems to me. While it makes me personally furious when this kind of scandal emerges (I have been on the receiving end of more infidelity than I care to discuss), Dr. Duguid is right on point: man's greatest need is the Savior, in his active and passive obedience and in his person, not earthly examples as helpful as those may be...... I think you aknowledge that, correct?

I absolutely agree, brother. As far as faith being the only quality that is needed to follow a leader, I'm not sure what to say in response to that. 1. James seems to connect faith and works. 2. Paul tells us to not associate with certain people living in sin. 3. There are qualifications for elders that are more than just faith. 4. In the Gospels, repentence seems to be part of faith.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Officers should be "followable", so far as they exercise faith.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though.

Maybe. Just maybe you two are missing each other. Paul bid the Corinthians follow him (at least to the extent) he followed Christ. Though I don't think Paul qualified his statement as I have. Maybe my qualification goes without saying. Notice that the author of Hebrews says the same thing Paul does about following the leaders in their local congregation. This proves that Paul as an apostle was not a special case, but that his exhortation applies to all leaders.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

 

[Dachaser]

Maybe. Just maybe you two are missing each other. Paul bid the Corinthians follow him (at least to the extent) he followed Christ. Though I don't think Paul qualified his statement as I have. Maybe my qualification goes without saying. Notice that the author of Hebrews says the same thing Paul does about following the leaders in their local congregation. This proves that Paul as an apostle was not a special case, but that his exhortation applies to all leaders.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

The scriptures would be qualifying us to be obedient to them as long as they are found to be obedient to Christ himself.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I am completely with Iain on this. The quote stated "my people's greatest need," and followed that up with the answer that focuses on... ME. What? Even if the intent is otherwise, as an isolated clause it's an example of a terrible misuse of language indicative of that which is most vital.

The quote (more of a blurb or soundbite) lacks any context that might qualify it, or show how it fit into a longer discourse that is all about men going into the ministry, and what a congregation might require from its pastor purely in terms of his character. In that case, as the pastoral epistles teach, above the rest of the indispensable qualifications in life and character that are demanded of ministers, "godliness" (after the example of Christ the Mystery of Godliness) is paramount.

But shorn of any context, the proposal does just what Iain says it does. If the pastor believes it "as is," he is a fool. And if the people incline to that view of him, they are in danger; first from the personal weakness of their demagogue, and second as they may transfer their blind regard from a man (they know to be a failure or vain, etc.) to the Church--rather than Christ--to the institution which is (allegedly) indefectible--an effect that has and continues to be ridiculously common.

 

[Paul1976]

I didn't intend to start another discussion over the quote I happened across that seemed relevant. Sorry!

I fully agree with the exception taken to it, especially by Iain Duguid and Bruce Buchanan. However, had the quote been appropriately qualified ("My people's greatest need FROM ME is my personal holiness."), I think it may have value and peacefully coexist with the very important and correct points raised above. So, I did a bit of digging to see if there was some context that might exonerate it. And apparently there isn't any context at all. It (or at least three slightly different versions) is attributed to M'Cheyne often by many very recognizable names, but evidently is hard to find. There's a helpful and long thread on Logos (https://community.logos.com/forums/t/117916.aspx?PageIndex=1) that ultimately fails to find it in anything published and electronically searchable. Perhaps it is a poorly constructed summation of M'Cheyne's stress on the importance of personal holiness?

If seen to mean that a ministers personal holiness (not just moral, but also vital relationship with Christ, attention to prayer and the Word, and similar) is the foundation for a ministry that will then I think there is some truth to it. If one does not practice what one preaches, the preaching is hollow and insincere. The disconnect will eventually surface, and the message will be tarnished. Perhaps it should still not be stated so absolutely. Personal holiness without faithfully preaching the gospel won't do a congregation much good. But, as long as ministers see it as a warning that their people need personal holiness from them more than some extra time invested in another ministry, or some extra time in sermon prep, or a number of other perfectly good things that can keep them from maintaining their relationship with Christ, I think it has value.

 

[sc_q_jayce]

Interestingly enough, it seems that no one can find the true source of that quote. I did some googling and this was the closest I could find.

http://www.shallwesingasongforyou.co.uk/2015/12/did-mcheyne-really-say-part-one/

http://www.shallwesingasongforyou.co.uk/2016/07/did-mcheyne-really-say-part-two/