As if we need one more reason NOT to buy a Christ-mass tree

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Arch2k

Puritan Board Graduate
Upside-Down Christmas Trees


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One site says:

Evoking a 12th century Central European tradition of hanging a tree from the ceiling at Christmas, this unique 7' pre-lit fir is inverted to ensure a smaller footprint for less-spacious areas, and allowing more room for the accumulation of presents underneath.

:banghead:
 
You're kidding!?

To the chagrin of our extended family, we have not had a tree nor decorated for Christmas in over 10 years.

On a 'funny' note: what's that Bible verse:

Jer 10:2-4 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.
 
I think Beth pointed out what was wrong with the tree. The evergreen was representative of Nimrod's eternal state...and Christmas was the celebration of such. The Catholics replaced the pagan holiday with a "Christian" one.
 
Originally posted by bond-servant
On a 'funny' note: what's that Bible verse:

Jer 10:2-4 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.

That's way too much work-- going into the forest and all that. Mine's plastic and sits in a cardboard box most of the year. :D
 
Originally posted by pastorway
Jeremiah does not apply unless you are cutting down a tree to carve it up and overlay it with metal in order to make an IDOL for worship.

A Christmas Tree is different altogether.

:worms:

That's been a matter of opinion and I've yet to see evidence of such...scripturally it does not mention carving it...merely decorating it.
 
Sounds more like it's describing the forming of an idol out of a tree, covering or overlaying it in silver or gold, and nailing it in place so it doesn't roll away. Seems to be an emphasis on the living tree being turned into a non-living idol, and the vanity of the nations for worshipping such foolish things. Not only are they worshipping something dead, but they had to kill it first before they could attribute divinity to it.
 
BTW, that would have defeated the entire purpose of it representing Nimrod in the first place...it was it's evergreen branches that were the symbolic part.
 
Originally posted by Rick Larson
Originally posted by bond-servant
On a 'funny' note: what's that Bible verse:

Jer 10:2-4 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.

That's way too much work-- going into the forest and all that. Mine's plastic and sits in a cardboard box most of the year. :D

Need to close the :worms: for a sec and take a humor break...
That was funny Rick! :lol:

Okay, I got a hold of myself..ONward!
Bad Nimrod!
Bad tree!
Bad pagans!

and apparently a little to much cold medicine. ....hmmm..
 
I could use some of that cold medicine...or even just a sleeping pill...I just can't wait to go to bed and forget about my stomach wambling (wonders if anyone will get this joke...)
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
I could use some of that cold medicine...or even just a sleeping pill...I just can't wait to go to bed and forget about my stomach wambling (wonders if anyone will get this joke...)

:lol:

Okay..I'll quit posting ":lol:" now if ya'll will quit making me laugh!

It was all I could do not to post a ":lol:" at Andrews comment about being to broke to buy PRESENTS after spending 600 on a tree! THAT was funny too!
 
I'm with Phil and Martin Luther on this one. Cut the tree down and let's light it up. God converted this pagan. I like the idea of another pagan thing turned into glorifying God.
 
Originally posted by pastorway
oh well, we will enjoy our tree this year and all the time of celebration that goes with it glorifying God for the gift of His Son.

<snip>
So by this simple decoration in our home during the month of December we have a wonderful representaiton of the Trinity, the incarnation, the sacrifice of Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, the Church, salvation, worship, and the ever present need to glorify God in all we do throughout every day of the year.

If that sounds like a pagan observance to you, so be it. For us, it is an awesome reminder of all that we have been given by God's grace.

Phillip

As with most Christian principles, I think this is a matter of the heart. The Spirit of the law versus the letter of it. So many of our modern Christian customs have pagan roots. At some point in areas like this, [not moral ones] it becomes a matter of "abstaining from the appearance of evil" (1 Thes 5) and doing what is right for your family.

For our family, b/c of the reasons listed here, and others, we neither celebrate Easter in the "traditional" way or Christmas in the "traditional" way.

Each Christmas every member of our family decides what "sacrifice" or "offering" they will give to Jesus as His "birthday present". It has been wonderful for our kids (and yes they get presents too), because each year even at an early age they are thinking how they can IMPROVE in thier walk with God.

A few years ago, my oldest (who had been saved for almost a year at that time) decided that for Jesus' present, he needed to follow in obedience and be baptized. This was HIS idea. Obedience was HIS word. We let him think about it for several months. Talked with our pastor. He was baptized the week before Christmas. The decision was ALL his and NOT ours.

We also bake Jesus a birthday cake..

I am in no way saying that ours is in anyway the "ideal". Our kids are young. And Yes, all we ARE and HAVE are Christ'S anyway, but it is a conscience honoring of Him and sacrifice of our will to HIS will. Contemplating our yearly offering begins long before Christmas...

:handshake:
 
Also for us, having been around and familiar with pagans who question why a Christian would participate in a pagan practice, we have chosen not to celebrate those two holidays in the usually manner. My children are aware that Christ was born around the Feast of Tabernacles. We don't decorate. We don't do egg hunts. There is no Santa or Bunny that lays eggs and leaves baskets. We DO sing praises to God as a family, enjoy eggnog and pie, and we do exchange gifts with family...one per person. There is no extravagance. We also do not participate in Mayday or Halloween, both of which are part of the same pagan cycle (Mayday and the maypole was very popular when I lived in Washington State).
 
Before I was married I purposed in my heart to never lie to kids about St. Nicholaus. My reasoning was if I told them a lie about Santa who is to say that I aint lyin about Jesus. So when I started having children I told them the truth. St. Nick was dead but that he lived in heaven with Jesus. I told them about the fables and myths and said it was wrong to make Santa Claus have characteristics that only God has.

Well, one Christmas we were in a department store and the cashier asked my two boys (probablly around 6years old) if they were good and if Santa was going to come to their house. To which my oldest looked at her and said, "No, Santa is dead." You should have seen the look of horror on that ladies face. It was great. I then explained to her that we believe that the real St. Nick is alive in heaven with Jesus but we wanted our son's to know that their parents always told them the truth. They could trust us when we said Jesus was real.

It is a great witness.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Our children know who St Nick was also.

:ditto:

We also never told our kids there was a "santa claus" but told them the truth from the beginning for the same reason puritancovenanter mentioned.
 
Originally posted by pastorway
oh well, we will enjoy our tree this year and all the time of celebration that goes with it glorifying God for the gift of His Son.

We will go cut it down, or buy it already cut and bing it home and decortate it in a prominent place in our living room. Each year our tree is decorated with gold and silver ornaments representing the Lordship of Christ as He is King of Kings. It is circled from top to bottom with a red ribbon signifying His blood shed for us upon the Tree of Calvary. Some of the ornaments are of a musical nature to signify the necessity of singing praises to God the Father for sending His Son. And in place of a star on top we use a large bow to signify the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit - ties that bind us forever as adopted children of God.

The gifts underneath are pictures of the gifts that Christ has given His church and remind us of the duty of fellowship within the Body of Christ.

So by this simple decoration in our home during the month of December we have a wonderful representaiton of the Trinity, the incarnation, the sacrifice of Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, the Church, salvation, worship, and the ever present need to glorify God in all we do throughout every day of the year.

If that sounds like a pagan observance to you, so be it. For us, it is an awesome reminder of all that we have been given by God's grace.

Phillip

:ditto:

We celebrate the historical redemptive AND the eschatological advent.
We fell by eating the fruit of a tree. Christ died on a tree suspended between heaven and earth. We live by eating the fruit of THAT tree forever.


Isa 55:12 "For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
Originally posted by pastorway
oh well, we will enjoy our tree this year and all the time of celebration that goes with it glorifying God for the gift of His Son.

We will go cut it down, or buy it already cut and bing it home and decortate it in a prominent place in our living room. Each year our tree is decorated with gold and silver ornaments representing the Lordship of Christ as He is King of Kings. It is circled from top to bottom with a red ribbon signifying His blood shed for us upon the Tree of Calvary. Some of the ornaments are of a musical nature to signify the necessity of singing praises to God the Father for sending His Son. And in place of a star on top we use a large bow to signify the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit - ties that bind us forever as adopted children of God.

The gifts underneath are pictures of the gifts that Christ has given His church and remind us of the duty of fellowship within the Body of Christ.

So by this simple decoration in our home during the month of December we have a wonderful representaiton of the Trinity, the incarnation, the sacrifice of Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, the Church, salvation, worship, and the ever present need to glorify God in all we do throughout every day of the year.

If that sounds like a pagan observance to you, so be it. For us, it is an awesome reminder of all that we have been given by God's grace.

Phillip

I am sorry Phillip, I was going to let this slide, and didn't want to end up in a sensitive debate, but I just can't. When you put it like this, I honestly have to wonder weather you haven't made you "Christ-mass" tree into an idol. I have never heard anyone try to make up such a relation to Christ from a tree.

From The Regulative Principle and Christmas by Matthew MacMahon.

Secondly, we must define whether or not Christmas actually falls under the category of worship. Is setting aside a certain day, once a year to honor Christ´s birth, a violation of the Regulative Principle and worship? Apart from asking this question, the Christian should be the first to realize that giving gifts, Santa Claus, Christmas Trees, Yule Logs and the like, have absolutely nothing to do with the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The closest in any of these is the giving of gifts, but we do not give gifts to Christ as the Magi did (which was for a specific purpose) but rather, we give them to one another. How is this honoring to Christ? I have yet found anyone who can justify any of these things in a lawful connection to Christ and His Word.

From your description, Christ looks an aweful lot like a christmas tree. How is this different from Jeremiah's day?
 
I'm not going to get into my feelings about Christmas, but there are two really annoying things about it that hopefully everyone here will agree on:

1. Christmas lights are such a waste of electricity. I've never heard anybody talk about them the way that Pastor Way just did, and he made me appreciate them a little more, but oh man, the poor, poor environment. (yeah, yeah, people waste electricity every day, but that's no excuse for continuing to waste it on Christmas!)

2. Wrapping presents is such a waste of paper! It's fun to unwrap them, and they certainly look pretty, but, again, oh man, the poor, poor environment!
 
Originally posted by pastorway
oh well, we will enjoy our tree this year and all the time of celebration that goes with it glorifying God for the gift of His Son.

We will go cut it down, or buy it already cut and bing it home and decortate it in a prominent place in our living room. Each year our tree is decorated with gold and silver ornaments representing the Lordship of Christ as He is King of Kings. It is circled from top to bottom with a red ribbon signifying His blood shed for us upon the Tree of Calvary. Some of the ornaments are of a musical nature to signify the necessity of singing praises to God the Father for sending His Son. And in place of a star on top we use a large bow to signify the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit - ties that bind us forever as adopted children of God.

The gifts underneath are pictures of the gifts that Christ has given His church and remind us of the duty of fellowship within the Body of Christ.

So by this simple decoration in our home during the month of December we have a wonderful representaiton of the Trinity, the incarnation, the sacrifice of Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, the Church, salvation, worship, and the ever present need to glorify God in all we do throughout every day of the year.

If that sounds like a pagan observance to you, so be it. For us, it is an awesome reminder of all that we have been given by God's grace.

Phillip

:ditto:
 
An aquaintance had this on her blog.

Here is a shocking excerpt from an article of a present day pagan :

In the fourth century C.E. Pope Julius I officially set the date of Christ's birth to December 25th, after a brief investigation. The truth is, no one had the faintest idea as to the actual date of his birth... they weren't even certain about the year! All of which lead to endless arguments amongst their faithful. Today scholars know one thing for certain- the Christ was not born in the year 0, on December 25th! That they all agree on. Many had speculated as to the exact date of birth of this religious figure. Some say they have proof that he was born in May... others have suggested April. Still others have championed January... March... and September. In reality no one knows- and they never will! But certain historical evidence has shown that he definitely was not born during the Yule Festival.

So why December 25th? Again... it was that old "if you can't beat them, then convert them by deceiving them." By placing the birth of their Christ in the middle of the ancient Mid-Winter heathen festival, the church hoped to convert, and thereby absorb the Pagans into their belief system. It was a limited success. For although the Yuletide became "Christmas", all the Pagan traditions stayed on. and the Nativity ended up taking a back seat to the rest. The ancient heathen practices never died out, but lingered on right up to the present time- lucky for us! And the traditions of Feasting, drinking, dancing, gift-giving, the lighting of fires, the holding of parties and general merriment and revelry... stayed on in their mostly original Pagan forms, with very little change. Over the years the church tried to stamp out the celebration of Christmas or Yule, and even made it illegal to observe it, at various times in history. It was officially abolished in England on the 3rd of June, 1647 C.E.! The puritans couldn't stand all the Pagan revelry, obviously having nothing to do with the birth of their "Christ", and so they too tried to stamp it out! When that failed, they tried to make the whole Christmas idea non-appealing and eventually illegal! However, this attempt to remove the Mid-Winter Festival from the hearts of people failed. And there were even riots against this law. It got absurd to the point where the mayors of cities, were forced by law, to go out an burn all Yule decorations they found! But the law could not remove it and it went underground, and was practiced behind closed doors. In 1660 the puritans were ousted and the Festival was returned to its former glory. The same thing happened in what would soon be the United States of America, and the observance of "Christmas" was banned, by law, between 1659 and 1681 C.E.. Again, this attempt to suppress the celebration of the return of the light and warmth of the Sun -failed!

The Christian attempt to change, by deception, the "rebirth of the Sun God" into the "birth of the Son of God", was never complete. And it only goes to prove that is ingrained so deeply in the hearts and spirits of the people, that is derived from their natural history, their ancestral faiths will always prevail!

Today...

Today the Yule Festival is observed by Asátrúar and Odinists with much Feasting and revelry. Blot ( symbolic ritual sacrifice) is traditionally performed to one of several gods. Some believe Thor is the god of the Yuletide... some think Balder, as the god of light... Some feel that Odin is the original Old Man of Winter, and therefore the god of Yule. We know for certain that Frey was honored at this time of year by our Heathen ancestors. But whoever you choose as the god of the Mid-Winter Festival- observe it well. For it is certainly one of the most potent times of the year. Feasting, giving of gifts, tree decorating, visiting with relatives and close friends, religious observances and more... fill the twelve days of Yule with as many special activities as you can. Rediscover the joy and anticipation of this wonderful time of year. Watch the Christians around you, as they go about, unknowingly performing ancient pagan rites... and celebrate! Realize that the excitement that everyone feels at this time of the year has nothing, whatsoever to do with the birth of the Son of God... but rather, has everything to do with the rebirth of the SUN GOD!.

Read entire article here (warning, this is a pagan web site):

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usoh&c=holidays&id=4942
 
A little something for the witch-hunters who hate Christmas. You (plural) act as though Satan is still on the throne.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


Eph 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.


Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


We may redeem anything the devil stole from God to begin with.
Kill and eat !
 
From Brian Schwertly's
The Regulative Principle of Worship and Christmas:

Many Christians argue that they do not worship the Christmas tree, and that the pagan origins are so far in the past as to be harmless. But such a view, while common in our day, shows a total disregard of the biblical teaching regarding idols, the paraphernalia associated with idolatry, and the monuments to idolatry.
God has such a strong hatred of idolatry that Israel was not just commanded to avoid the worship of idols. Israel was also specifically ordered to destroy everything associated with idolatry. "Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: and ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. . . . [A]nd that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God" (Deut. 12:2-4, 30-31).
When Jacob set out to purify the camp (i.e., his household and attendants) the earrings were removed as well as their foreign gods (Gen. 35:4), because their earrings were associated with their false gods. They were signs of superstition. When Elijah went to offer his sacrifice, in his contest with the prophets of Baal, he did not use the pagan altar. He did not take something made for idols (e.g., Saturnalia) and attempt to sanctify it for holy use (e.g., Christmas), but instead he rebuilt the Lord's altar. Christians should not take the pagan festival of Yule or Saturnalia and dress it with Christian clothing, but rather sanctify the Lord's day, as did the apostles. When Jehu went up against the worshipers of Baal and their temple, did he save the temple and set it apart for holy use? No! He slaughtered the worshipers of Baal: "they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day" (2 Ki. 10:27).
"Moreover, we have the example of good Josiah (2 Ki. 23), for he did not only destroy the houses, and the high places of Baal, but his vessels also, and his grove, and his altars; yea, the horses and chariots which had been given to the sun. The example also of penitent Manasseh, who not only overthrew the strange gods, but their altars too (2 Chron. 23:15). And of Moses, the man of God, who was not content to execute vengeance on the idolatrous Israelites, except he should also utterly destroy the monument of their idolatry."25
God does not want His church to take pagan days, and those pagan and popish rites and paraphernalia that go with them and adapt them to Christian use. He simply commands us to abolish them altogether from the face of the earth forever. You may not be offended by the Yule log, the Christmas tree, the mistletoe, the holly berries and the selection of a pagan day to celebrate Christ's birth, but God is offended. God commands us to get rid of the monuments and paraphernalia of paganism.
If your wife was promiscuous before you married her would you be offended if she had pictures of her old boyfriends on her dresser? Would it bother you if she celebrated the various anniversaries relating to her past relationships? Would you be offended if she kept and cherished the various rings, jewelry and mementos given to her by her old boyfriends? Of course you would be offended! The Lord God is infinitely more zealous of His honor than you are; He is a jealous God. Could Israel take festival days to Baal, Ashteroth, Dagon and Molech and alter them to make them pleasing to God? Of course not! The Bible makes very clear which kings of Judah pleased God the most. God is pleased when idols, their temples, their religious dress, earrings, sacred houses, sacred trees, poles, ornaments, rites, names and days are utterly cut off from the earth, never again to be restored. God wants His bride to eliminate forever the monuments, the days, the paraphernalia and the mementos of idolatry. "Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain" (Jer. 10:2-3). "Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods" (Deut. 12:31).
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Originally posted by pastorway
Jeremiah does not apply unless you are cutting down a tree to carve it up and overlay it with metal in order to make an IDOL for worship.

A Christmas Tree is different altogether.

:worms:

That's been a matter of opinion and I've yet to see evidence of such...scripturally it does not mention carving it...merely decorating it.

A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.

Unless you want to say that cutting the tree down and working it with an axe are the same event, it sure looks to me like there is some hacking and hewing and carving going on.

Interestingly enough, the NIV renders it:

For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

Just my half cent.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by gwine]
 
Originally posted by SaiphWe may redeem anything the devil stole from God to begin with.
Kill and eat !

I think we should start by redeeming our obedience to the law!

Jer 10:1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD: "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
Jer 10:4 They decorate it with silver and gold; They fasten it with nails and hammers So that it will not topple.

I say we redeem the trees by burning them!! This can represent God's wrath in the firey flames of hell! Somehow I don't think that many people would join in that celebration.

It seems this would be an equally significant way of using the tree to symbolize God! :D
 
The purpose of that O.T. restriction was gosel purity because Israel was God's Message bearer under the Old Covenant (Heb. 1)

I suppose you guys do not eat pork either.

Christ is risen. The shadows flee at His very name. The typologies have met every antitype in Christ.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Wow. So you think that we CAN worship God like the heathen do today? No restrictions?

Didn't say that. But we have freedom to worship in any reverent, God-centered, and orderly manner. In spirit and in truth. We also have liberty to celebrate feast days of our own making. Thanksgiving, Easter, Epiphany, Advent, Pentecost, ad infinitum. . .
 
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