Atonement and Sufficiency

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timfost

Puritan Board Senior
Certainly the most common controversial point in the 5 points of Calvinism is Limited Atonement. I’ve put together the following for the purpose of conversation about the different ways orthodox reformed believers can speak about atonement. I would prefer that his does not become a platform in which the first two descriptions of Christ’s sufficiency are debated. With the third (Amyraldianism), I would hope that there is no debate as it is generally agreed in confessionally reformed circles that Amyraldianism is speculative and laden with error.

Quotes:

“[Christ] makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.” (Calvin’s commentary on Rom. 5:18)
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“Obj. 4. If Christ made satisfaction for all, then all ought to be saved. But all are not saved… Ans. Christ satisfied for all, as it respects the sufficiency of the satisfaction which he made, but not as it respects the application thereof;.. [T]he satisfaction is made ours by an application, which is… two-fold; the former of which is made by God, when he justifies us on account of the merit of his Son, and brings it to pass that we cease from sin; the latter is accomplished by us through faith. For we apply unto ourselves, the merit of Christ, when by a true faith, we are fully persuaded that God for the sake of the satisfaction of his Son, remits unto us our sins. Without this application, the satisfaction of Christ is of no benefit to us.”

“[T]he atonement of Christ is sufficient for expiating all the sins of all men, or of the whole world, if only all men will make application thereof unto themselves by faith.”

“[F]or the atonement of Christ is for the sins of the whole world, as it respects the dignity and sufficiency of the satisfaction which he made–but [condemnation] arises from unbelief; because men reject the benefits of Christ offered in the gospel, and so perish by their own fault, and not because of any insufficiency in the merits of Christ.” (From Ursinus’s commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism)
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Christ’s blood is a sufficient price for all-- but it is effectual only to those who believe. A plaster may have a sovereign virtue in it to heal any wound-- but it does not heal any, unless applied to the wound. (Thomas Watson, A Body of Practical Divinity, “8 Christ the Redeemer.”)
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“And the reason [for the free offer] is, because Christ died for all, ‘tasted death for every man’ (2 Cor. 5:15; Heb. 2:9); is ‘the Saviour of the world’ (1 John 4:14), and the propitiaion for the sins of the whole world.” (John Bunyan, “Reprobation Asserted” Ch. 9)
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“But it does not follow from the assertion of its having a special reference to the elect that it had no reference to the non-elect. Augustinians readily admit that the death of Christ had a relation to man, to the whole human family, which it had not to the fallen angels. It is the ground on which salvation is offered to every creature under heaven who hears the gospel; but it gives no authority for a like offer to apostate angels. It moreover secures to the whole race at large, and to all classes of men, innumerable blessings, both providential and religious. It was, of course, designed to produce these effects; and, therefore, He died to secure them. In view of the effects which the death of Christ produces in the relation of all mankind to God, it has in all ages been customary with Augustinians to say that Christ died "sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis;" sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect. There is a sense, therefore, in which He died for all, and there is a sense in which He died for the elect alone. The simple question is, Had the death of Christ a reference to the elect which it had not to other men? Did He come into the world to secure the salvation of those given to Him by the Father, so that the other effects of his work are merely incidental to what was done for the attainment of that object.” (Systematic Theology)
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I could go on to quote Shedd, Bavinck, Turretin and R.B. Kuiper to name a few that either use the sufficient/efficient formula or speak about providential benefits accruing from the death of Christ for all men indiscriminately.

This post is not designed to hash out the specifics in the doctrines themselves, but rather to point out that one is not necessarily a 4-point Calvinist when they believe that Christ’s death has reference to all men indiscriminately. It should be inquired how they apply the “sufficient for all, effectual for the elect” formula.

There are three applications of this formula that I’ve come across:

1. Christ died sufficiently for every person (Calvin, Ursinus, Shedd, Bunyan, etc.)

2. Christ paid a sufficient price for every person if it was intended for every person (Owen)

3. Christ died sufficiently for all because He decreed the redemption of every man before He elected part of the human race (Moses Amyraut (father of Amyraldianism) and, I believe, Davenant and Baxter)

#1 is how the quotes above applied this doctrine. Owen (#2) made it into a completely hypothetical argument as to intrinsic value and the Amyraldians (#3) used it to speak about a separate decree of God prior to election, the position that is properly called 4-point Calvinism.

Why is this distinction important?

Regardless of where any reformed individual places himself, we should be very slow to judge someone as a 4-point Calvinist because of the specific terminology he uses. Furthermore, this distinction is confessional:

37. What do you understand by the word “suffered”?

“That all the time He lived on earth, but especially at the end of His life, He bore, in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race; in order that by His suffering, as the only atoning sacrifice, He might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation, and obtain for us the grace of God, righteousness, and eternal life.” (Heidelberg)

Article 6

“And, whereas many who are called by the gospel do not repent nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief, this is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but is wholly to be imputed to themselves.” (Canons of Dort, 2nd Head of Doctrine)
 
Does the expression "sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect" mean the following?

Christ's atonement has the power to save everyone, but Christ only made an atonement for the elect. Christ was capable of dying for everyone, but He chose not to die for everyone.
 
Does the expression "sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect" mean the following?

Christ's atonement has the power to save everyone, but Christ only made an atonement for the elect. Christ was capable of dying for everyone, but He chose not to die for everyone.

Certainly the atonement of Christ was only designed to save the elect. I think the distinction that I listed as #1 is proposed to understand what is rejected when the reprobate reject the gospel. In essence, they are rejecting the salvation offered in the gospel, which is a legitimate offer because of Christ's sufficient atonement. At least this is what I understand Calvin and Hodge to be saying.

Interestingly, scripture never states that Christ did not die for anyone, but rather states who it was intended to save. This is also how the Canons of Dort are worded. According to the sufficient/efficient distinction in #1, the atonement does not exactly equate with the question "for whom did Christ die?" since He died for all sufficiently. According to #1, it seems the better question is "for whom was the atonement designed to save?"
 
There are three applications of this formula that I’ve come across:

1. Christ died sufficiently for every person (Calvin, Ursinus, Shedd, Bunyan, etc.)

2. Christ paid a sufficient price for every person if it was intended for every person (Owen)

This is a very confused analysis. Arminians teach that Christ died sufficiently for all and that the effects are only for believers. So category 1 is Arminian. As for category 2, Amyraldians introduced the "hypothetical" scheme. So category 2 is Amyraldian. Neither Calvin nor Owen belong in either of these categories. Calvin never taught that Christ died sufficiently for all. He positively rejected it in some places. He taught that the death of Christ is offered to all for their salvation. And Owen taught the sufficiency of Christ's death for all -- not the extrinsic sufficiency of the Arminians nor the hypothetical sufficiency of the Amyradians, but an intrinsic sufficiency based on the infinite value of Christ's person and passion. In this he was simply echoing Dort.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing... Concerning Owen, "hypothetical" was probably a poor word choice on my part. He spoke of sufficient for all in terms of the value.

"It was, then, the purpose and intention of God that his Son should offer a sacrifice of infinite worth, value, and dignity, sufficient in itself for the redeeming of all and every man, if it had pleased the Lord to employ it to that purpose; yea, and of other worlds also, if the Lord should freely make them, and would redeem them. Sufficient we say, then, was the sacrifice of Christ for the redemption of the whole world, and for the expiation of all the sins of all and every man in the world." (Death of Death, bk 4 ch 1)

As far as Calvin, I took from the quote above (Rom. 5:18 commentary) that he would say that Christ died sufficiently for all. Also, he said:

"They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true..." (commentary on 1 John 2:2)

If Calvin denied this distinction, could you please point me to the reading where he states disagreement? Also, how then would your understand the quotes that I listed?

Also, do the other quotes, especially Heidelberg 37 promote the Arminian view in your opinion?

Thanks
 
He spoke of sufficient for all in terms of the value.

As did some of the others you have quoted. Owen shouldn't be given a peculiar classification as if he taught something different.

As far as Calvin, I took from the quote above (Rom. 5:18 commentary) that he would say that Christ died sufficiently for all. Also, he said:

"They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true..." (commentary on 1 John 2:2)

Calvin did not speak of Christ dying sufficiently for all in Romans 5. He used the indefinite term "whole world." As his comments on 1 John 2:2 demonstrate, Calvin had reason to reject the application of the "sufficient for all" formula to the "whole world." As he said, "I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church."

If Calvin denied this distinction, could you please point me to the reading where he states disagreement? Also, how then would your understand the quotes that I listed?

Calvin qualified the distinction in a particularist direction. This is evident in his interpretation of 1 John 2:2. The same is stated in his Treatise of the Eternal Predestination of God. "For our present question is, not what the power or virtue of Christ is, nor what efficacy it has in itself, but who those are to whom He gives Himself to be enjoyed. Now if the possession of Christ stands in faith, and if faith flows from the Spirit of adoption, it follows that he alone is numbered of God among His children who is designed of God to be a partaker of Christ."

How do I understand the quotations? Unless an author qualifies what he says, an indefinite term must be taken indefinitely, not universally.

Also, do the other quotes, especially Heidelberg 37 promote the Arminian view in your opinion?

No, because Ursinus speaks of a single, particular intention of benefit to the elect. As soon as he includes faith in the benefit of salvation it is obvious that Christ did not die sufficiently to save all men because He did not die to purchase faith for all men.
 
I did not mean to single Owen out. Yes, I agree, he was not alone in this position.

As for Calvin's commentary on 1 John 2:2, it seems that all he is saying is that he doesn't think the sufficient/efficient formula is applicable to this verse. He states "Though then I allow that what has been said is true..." followed by "I deny that it is suitable to this passage." I'm not sure if this lives up to the claim, "Calvin never taught that Christ died sufficiently for all. He positively rejected it in some places." I'm struggling to see any rejection of "sufficiently for all" in the quote that you provided. Are there any other places where Calvin actually rejects this doctrine?

Also, Calvin's commentary on Rom. 5:18 does not use the word "world" indefinitely, since he applies this doctrine to those who reject Christ. I think you may be reading something different than what was intended in both Calvin's commentaries on Rom. 5:18 and 1 John 2:2.

I'm also struggling to distinguish formula #1 "Christ died sufficiently for every person" which you call "Arminian" from Ursinus's words "Christ satisfied for all, as it respects the sufficiency of the satisfaction which he made, but not as it respects the application thereof." #1 in no way was designed to say that Christ did not die effectively for the elect. I'm struggling to see how I said anything different. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you added a qualifier to #1 that I neither said nor meant, "As soon as [Ursinus] includes faith in the benefit of salvation it is obvious that Christ did not die sufficiently to save all men because He did not die to purchase faith for all men." I would like to make it clear: Christ did not die sufficiently to save all men.
 
As for Calvin's commentary on 1 John 2:2, it seems that all he is saying is that he doesn't think the sufficient/efficient formula is applicable to this verse.

If it is not applicable to this verse it could only be owing to a particularist stance, which means he had a distinct view of the formula. This is evident in his reply to Georgius, which I previously quoted. That reply specifically states the sufficient-efficient formula in terms which Owen would later adopt. What applies to Owen applies to Calvin.

Also, Calvin's commentary on Rom. 5:18 does not use the word "world" indefinitely, since he applies this doctrine to those who reject Christ. I think you may be reading something different than what was intended in both Calvin's commentaries on Rom. 5:18 and 1 John 2:2.

He specifically stated, "because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all." I leave it to you to squeeze blood out of that stone. There is no "sufficiently for all" in his words. Unless he is taken indefinitely you force him to contradict himself. If he is taken naturally, his reference to the "whole world" must be referring to what is "propounded," not what is "extended."


#1 in no way was designed to say that Christ did not die effectively for the elect. I'm struggling to see how I said anything different.

Consider the following error which was rejected by Dort: "Who use the difference between meriting and appropriating, to the end that they may instil into the minds of the imprudent and inexperienced this teaching that God, as far as He is concerned, has been minded to apply to all equally the benefits gained by the death of Christ." Making different beneficiaries of redemption accomplished and redemption applied is an error.

I would like to make it clear: Christ did not die sufficiently to save all men.

I am glad for the clarification, but the traditional formula refers to salvation. It states that Christ died sufficiently to save all men. For what is his death sufficient if not to save? When the reformed revise the formula to remove the idea of intention, they state that Christ's death is sufficient in and of itself to save all men. The reference is to salvation. They qualify, however, that it is divine predestination which gives the death of Christ its salvific virtue, and this is limited to the elect.
 
Dear Rev. Matthew,

Perhaps I am dense. That is a real possibility. Maybe I'm slow to learn. A very real possibility. I ask then, please bear with me a little longer.

Calvin said "Though then I allow that what has been said is true..." Isn't he stating that the doctrine is true, just not applicable to the verse? I might say that the Trinity is true, but not applicable to a particular verse. I am having a really difficult time how you can derive from this that he rejected the formula "Christ died sufficiently for all."

Ursinus said: "They affirm, therefore, that Christ died for all, and that he did not die for all; but in different respects. He died for all, as touching the sufficiency of the ransom which he paid; and not for all; but only for the elect, or those that believe, as touching the application and efficacy thereof." The "they" he was referring to are those who say that Christ died for all. This is precisely what I was trying to convey from #1. #2 advocates do not say that Christ died sufficiently for all as they understand sufficiency in terms of value alone. Unless I am missing something, I think that #1 is not necessarily Arminian and falls under reformed classification.

Am I missing something really obvious here? I do not want this to turn into "endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification." I'm not asking you to even agree with #1, I'm just trying to discuss various reformed positions.
 
Perhaps I am dense. That is a real possibility. Maybe I'm slow to learn. A very real possibility. I ask then, please bear with me a little longer.

I certainly don't think of you in this way. It seems to me, though, that you have a preconception that is getting in the way. Looking at your last paragraph, you seem to think that there are a number of "reformed" options on this. I wonder where the idea comes from. Are you reading the authors for yourself, or are you picking up this idea through some internet site which selectively filters the quotations?

Calvin said "Though then I allow that what has been said is true..." Isn't he stating that the doctrine is true, just not applicable to the verse?

If you read the section against Georgius it might help to clarify. It is to be found here: Calvin's Calvinism - Section VI

Calvin saw a problem with the "common solution of this question" as it relates to the "benefits" of Christ's death. He revised the "common solution" so as to distinguish between the intrinsic value and extrinsic virtue of Christ's death. This is the revision which Owen followed. Saying "Christ's death is sufficient to save all" is a different proposition to saying that "Christ died sufficiently to save all." The second is the common scholastic solution. The first is the reformed revision.

#2 advocates do not say that Christ died sufficiently for all as they understand sufficiency in terms of value alone.

Your category 2 is Amyraldian, as already noted. There is no "conditional will" in God which would allow for an hypothetical intention.

You are choosing to read Ursinus as saying something different to Owen. As noted, Calvin used the same differentiation which Owen would later use. I don't understand why you are trying to make these authors say different things.
 
Are you reading the authors for yourself, or are you picking up this idea through some internet site which selectively filters the quotations?

No, I've not received any of this from a website or anything. I've come across all of the quotes listed above from personal reading. I've very much read them in their contexts, and often reread and reread. Calvin and Ursinus were instrumental in getting me out of hyper-Calvinism, and they are both very regular reads for me still.

Honestly, I still see a marked difference between sufficiency as applied by Ursinus and Owen. I do not see that Calvin and Ursinus revised the formula of the "school men" as you say: "Christ died sufficiently to save all." The formula of the school men, as I understand it, is "sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis." The formula does not state intention to save all, only sufficiency.

Perhaps this will help... What I am calling #1 states that the reprobate are actually rejecting salvation offered in the gospel. “[T]he atonement of Christ is sufficient for expiating all the sins of all men, or of the whole world, if only all men will make application thereof unto themselves by faith.”

In other words, they are rejecting something legitimately offered through unbelief. Note: this is not a denial that faith is a gift of God.

I don't believe Owen could make the above claim due to his definition of sufficiency. From my personal reading, I see a marked difference.
 
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Honestly, I still see a marked difference between sufficiency as applied by Ursinus and Owen.

That is only because the Arminian controversy intervenes between them and Owen uses more precise wording to guard against the Arminian error.

I do not see that Calvin and Ursinus revised the formula of the "school men" as you say:

I have quoted Calvin to that effect. I am sorry you cannot see it. As for Ursinus (or Pareus), if you desire to read him as favouring Arminianism, that is your choice. I think he can be taken in an orthodox way.

The formula does not state intention to save all, only sufficiency.

"Intention" is implicit in the wording, "Christ died for."

Perhaps this will help... What I am calling #1 states that the reprobate are actually rejecting salvation offered in the gospel. “[T]he atonement of Christ is sufficient for expiating all the sins of all men, or of the whole world, if only all men will make application thereof unto themselves by faith.”

That is the Arminian doctrine, as stated in the second of the five articles of the Remonstrants. The Calvinist view makes salvation an act of God's free and efficacious grace.

In other words, they are rejecting something legitimately offered through unbelief. Note: this is not a denial that faith is a gift of God.

It supposes Christ's death is not sufficient to procure faith or atone for unbelief.

I don't believe Owen could make the above claim due to his definition of sufficiency.

I don't believe Calvin, Ursinus, or Owen would have made a claim on behalf of universal grace.
 
Honestly, I still see a marked difference between sufficiency as applied by Ursinus and Owen.

That is only because the Arminian controversy intervenes between them and Owen uses more precise wording to guard against the Arminian error.

Yes, I see this change. The change, I thought, was reflected in #1 and #2.
I do not see that Calvin and Ursinus revised the formula of the "school men" as you say:

I have quoted Calvin to that effect. I am sorry you cannot see it. As for Ursinus (or Pareus), if you desire to read him as favouring Arminianism, that is your choice. I think he can be taken in an orthodox way.

I do not think Ursinus favors Arminianism in any way.
The formula does not state intention to save all, only sufficiency.

"Intention" is implicit in the wording, "Christ died for."

Not necessarily. Shedd:

"Again, the preposition “for” is sometimes understood to denote not intention, but value or sufficiency. To say that Christ died “for” all men then means, that his death is sufficient to expiate the guilt of all men. Here, again, the difference is possibly reconcilable between the parties. The one who denies that Christ died “for” all men, takes “for” in the sense of intention to effectually apply. The other who affirms that Christ died “for” all men, takes “for” in the sense of value. As to the question, Which is the most proper use of the word “for?” it is plain that it more naturally conveys the notion of intention, than of sufficiency or value."

Though we could make a good argument that the word "for" should not be used in relation to Christ's death respecting all, many of the quotes that I shared use it in the sense of value.
Perhaps this will help... What I am calling #1 states that the reprobate are actually rejecting salvation offered in the gospel. “[T]he atonement of Christ is sufficient for expiating all the sins of all men, or of the whole world, if only all men will make application thereof unto themselves by faith.”

That is the Arminian doctrine, as stated in the second of the five articles of the Remonstrants. The Calvinist view makes salvation an act of God's free and efficacious grace.

The Arminian doctrine states that Christ died sufficiently for all because it was intended for all. The Amyraldian differs only in the doctrine of ability one has to exercise faith. When used in a reformed context (Ursinus), it holds all men accountable but was not intended to save all. However, he really uses "for" all because of the value. He explains:

"Therefore, as he died for all, in respect to the sufficiency of his ransom; and for the faithful alone in respect to the efficacy of the same, so also he willed to die for all in general, as touching the sufficiency of his merit, that is, he willed to merit by his death, grace, righteousness, and life in the most abundant manner for all; because he would not that any thing should be wanting as far as he and his merits are concerned, so that all the wicked who perish may be without excuse."
In other words, they are rejecting something legitimately offered through unbelief. Note: this is not a denial that faith is a gift of God.

It supposes Christ's death is not sufficient to procure faith or atone for unbelief.

Christ accomplished through His death exactly what He intended to accomplish.
I don't believe Owen could make the above claim due to his definition of sufficiency.

I don't believe Calvin, Ursinus, or Owen would have made a claim on behalf of universal grace.

Agreed. I am simply asking that we understand that reformed theologians spoke of "for all" in different ways. None of the people I mentioned are advocating universal saving grace as intended for all.
 
I am just beginning to learn some of the details on this topic. So what I am going to ask is truly out of ignorance. What reconciles for my understanding the value of Christ's death with the predestination decree that some are reserved to eternal punishment and some to eternal life? I ask because the value of Christ's death is being used (maybe always or sometimes) with the sense of a value to all men. Sometimes used with the sense of the intention to all men. The latter neatly fits with predestination (reprobate/elect). Yet how is 'value' to be understood? If I am understanding the discussion 'value' is different from 'intention', but theologically how?

Edit: Is the 'value' and 'intent' difference understood respectively as a difference between 'God's nature' and 'God's decree'?
 
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Wiliam Cuningham(1805-1861) gives insight into potential misunderstanding of the Reformed position, which serves as a call for care in using the “sufficient for all, efficient for the elect” terminology.

A distinction was generally employed by the schoolmen, which has often been adverted to in this discussion, and which it may be proper to explain. They were accustomed to say, that Christ died sufficiently for all men, and efficaciously for the elect, — sufficientur pro omnibus, efficaciter pro electis. Some orthodox divines, who wrote before the extent of the atonement had been made the subject of full, formal, and elaborate discussion, and Calvin himself among the rest, — admitted the truth of this scholastic position. But after controversy had thrown its full light upon the subject, orthodox divines generally refused to adopt this mode of stating the point, because it seemed to ascribe to Christ a purpose or intention of dying in the room of all, and of benefiting all by the proper effects of His death, as an atonement or propitiation; not that they doubted or denied the intrinsic sufficiency of His death for the redemption of all men, but because the statement — whether originally so intended or not — was so expressed as to suffest the idea, that Christ, in dying, desired and intended that all men should partake in the proper and peculiar effects of the shedding of His blood. Calvinists do not object to say that the death of Christ — viewed objectively, apart from His purpose or design — was sufficient for all, and efficacious for the elect, because this statement in the first clause merely asserts its infinite intrinsic sufficiency, which they admit; whereas the original scholastic form of the statement, — namely, that He died sufficiently for all, — seems to indicate that, when He died, He intended that all should derive some saving and permanent benefit from His death. William Cunningham, Historical Theology, vol. 2, p. 332.
 
If we reduce the discussion of the "value" of Christ's death to a price tag, if we tried to describe the worth of it simply in terms of its inherent, intrinsic excellence, measured as it were by some calculus--then we should reckon its value is the highest possible number. It is beyond conception. It certainly is more than enough to suffice to cover the sins of all the elect.

So we admit the impropriety of this thinking, even as we engage it for the sake of gaining a purchase on apprehension. Nor should we think of the sum-total demerit of all the elect as if by the same calculus. It too is beyond conception, but for debt. It is not as if the worth of Christ's Person, and consequently his death, is measured against that debt and fitted to it. As if we said, "Here the limit of its value is reached."

But it is also false and improper to think, that the infinitely greater worth of Christ in itself--greater far than all the sin and shame of the elect--is translatable into a purpose of God, whereby it becomes us to say of it, "God intended for the surpassing measure of Christ's death to be fitted over against not only the sin of the elect, but also the sin of each and every reprobate: the aggregate sin of the world; for that he might imply it should cover it all, if only those too might believe, who nevertheless have no election." This kind of thinking is worse than pure speculation, for it attributes a divine intention to the Atonement of which Scripture knows nothing. It only exists to satisfy a rationalist passion.

If somehow we found the staggering, immeasurable aggregate dimensions of the sin of the whole world, it would still vanish in the depths of the infinite mercies of God in Christ; so vast is its intrinsic excellence.

Christ, in our understanding of the Atonement, did not die for aggregate sin, but for sinners; and particular sinners at that. Intent is not found one way in accomplishment, another way in application; but is the same for both.
 
Mr. Ellis and Rev. Buchanan,

Thank you both. That cleared it up so much!

Does the terminology in each statement properly correspond? Below:

The intrinsic value of the Son of God is His nature.
The extrinsic value of the Son of God is His purpose or intent in being our Redeemer.
 
When used in a reformed context (Ursinus), it holds all men accountable but was not intended to save all. However, he really uses "for" all because of the value.

That is correct. The reformed view limits sufficiency to "value." So now that we have read Ursinus in an orthodox manner, he is found to be saying the same thing which Owen would later say about "value." I am glad our conversation has come to this conclusion. Let's not hear any more talk of Christ dying sufficiently for all men or of Christ's sufficiency being hypothetical.
 
If I am understanding the discussion 'value' is different from 'intention', but theologically how?

The value is of divine intention. Man sinned. Christ took human nature to bear the punishment for sin. The punishment that Christ bore is that which man as a sinner deserved. Had God purposed to save one man or every man, Christ would have suffered the same, because He suffered the wrath of God against sin. So in and of itself the mediatorial work of Christ is sufficient to save every man. However, it was only intended to save the elect, and He only stood in the place of the elect when He wrought His great work, so it is only efficacious for the elect.
 
If I am understanding the discussion 'value' is different from 'intention', but theologically how?

The value is of divine intention. Man sinned. Christ took human nature to bear the punishment for sin. The punishment that Christ bore is that which man as a sinner deserved. Had God purposed to save one man or every man, Christ would have suffered the same, because He suffered the wrath of God against sin. So in and of itself the mediatorial work of Christ is sufficient to save every man. However, it was only intended to save the elect, and He only stood in the place of the elect when He wrought His great work, so it is only efficacious for the elect.

The strict sense of how the value of the Son of God is understood is precedent on God's intent. It depends on context, meaning, in one sense "in and of itself the mediatorial work of Christ is sufficient to save every man" for the value of Christ is infinite. Yet the value of Christ for salvation is bound by God's original intent, and He intended only the elect and not the reprobate to enjoy Him forever. Since the value of Christ's mediatorial work is determined by divine intention, His sufficiency to save is purposed by God to the elect only. correct?

What I have trouble with is when you say:

Had God purposed to save one man or every man, Christ would have suffered the same, because He suffered the wrath of God against sin. So in and of itself the mediatorial work of Christ is sufficient to save every man.

There is an infinite value to Christ, but obviously the salvific truth is manifested by God's decree. Thus God could have decreed any of what you say above, but He only determined to save the elect and not the reprobate. Obviously the hypothetical in God could have saved one or all, is not an Amyraldian hypothetical because God has revealed to us His decree and we do not have to speculate. Yet it is a hypothetical based on the true value of the Son of God who is of an infinite value, but it is a hypothetical based on what we think is possible not on what God has determined is possible. His infinite value is only given to who God chooses to redeem and some He chooses not to redeem so they are not given salvation.

I really appreciate all the help that has been provided. The PB is a means of God for what He has revealed by His written Word is taught here in such a wonderful way. Praise God!
 
Since the value of Christ's mediatorial work is determined by divine intention, His sufficiency to save is purposed by God to the elect only. correct?

Yes. Sufficiency in and of itself does not save. Sufficiency only means that enough has been done to save. Without the divine intention to substitute Christ in the place of sinners no sinner would have been saved. In reformed theology the divine intention to save is limited to the elect.


Obviously the hypothetical in God could have saved one or all, is not an Amyraldian hypothetical because God has revealed to us His decree and we do not have to speculate. Yet it is a hypothetical based on the true value of the Son of God who is of an infinite value, but it is a hypothetical based on what we think is possible not on what God has determined is possible. His infinite value is only given to who God chooses to redeem and some He chooses not to redeem so they are not given salvation.

The Amyraldian hypothetical is an intention to save based on the condition of faith. They then add a further intention to supply the condition in the case of the elect. This makes an intrinsic conditional will in God, which reformed theology rejects. For the reformed the redemption purchased by Christ is not hypothetically resting on faith because Christ purchased faith itself. He stood in the place of a people, which makes a claim in righteousness that His work be applied to the people He stood for.

There is no "hypothetical sufficiency" in reformed thought. The sufficiency is actual. Sufficiency to save, however, is not salvation. Salvation includes the gift of faith.

What is stated as an hypothetical is not something in God but something in the nature of the satisfaction which Christ has made. Since it was made to satisfy for human sin it suffices as the "meritorious cause" of salvation, but this is irrespective of the beneficiaries. The beneficiaries are chosen by grace.

So we do not have an hypothetical sufficiency in reformed thought. We have an actual sufficiency in the nature of the thing. The benefits, however, flow certainly to the stated beneficiaries, who are the elect.
 
Question: The quote from Jim Ellis explains

They were accustomed to say, that Christ died sufficiently for all men, and efficaciously for the elect, — sufficientur pro omnibus, efficaciter pro electis. Some orthodox divines, who wrote before the extent of the atonement had been made the subject of full, formal, and elaborate discussion, and Calvin himself among the rest, — admitted the truth of this scholastic position.

It would seem that this is the format of the Three Forms. Is this correct?

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but as a strict subscriptionist to the Three Forms, this topic is very relevant to me.
 
It would seem that this is the format of the Three Forms. Is this correct?

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but as a strict subscriptionist to the Three Forms, this topic is very relevant to me.

The three forms includes Dort. Dort explains the sense in which the Heidelberg should be taken in light of the Remonstrant controversy.
 
The Amyraldian hypothetical is an intention to save based on the condition of faith. They then add a further intention to supply the condition in the case of the elect. This makes an intrinsic conditional will in God, which reformed theology rejects. For the reformed the redemption purchased by Christ is not hypothetically resting on faith because Christ purchased faith itself. He stood in the place of a people, which makes a claim in righteousness that His work be applied to the people He stood for.

The Amyraldian differs from Arminianism because the Arminian states God desires to save all conditioned on their free-will? God loves all people they just have to accept Him? (Free-will being a natural faith not a God given faith?)

Whereas the Amyraldian states Christ has died for all, but conditions the application to the elect who possess a natural faith (not a God given faith?

The Reformed states Christ has died only for His elect.


The sufficiency is actual. Sufficiency to save, however, is not salvation. Salvation includes the gift of faith.

What is stated as an hypothetical is not something in God but something in the nature of the satisfaction which Christ has made.

I understand. And God decrees who benefits from the sufficiency of Christ. The sufficiency of Christ is of infinite value, but that has nothing to do with what men by grace have applied to them this sufficient work of Christ. God's decree determines the application of God's given faith to His people.
 
The main reason I started this thread was stated at the beginning.

Regardless of where any reformed individual places himself, we should be very slow to judge someone as a 4-point Calvinist because of the specific terminology he uses.

There are still Reformed people who speak about Christ's death for all, not in any way to procure salvation for each one of them, but to bestow other blessings on them.

Therefore the statement, so often heard from Reformed pulpits, that Christ died only for the elect must be rated a careless one. To be sure, if by “for” be meant in the place of the statement is accurate enough, for those in whose stead Christ suffered the penalty of sin will not themselves have to suffer that penalty, and therefore their salvation from that penalty is assured. If, however, by “for” be meant in behalf of, it is inaccurate, to say the least. Certain benefits of the atonement accrue to men generally, including the non-elect. (R. B. Kuiper, "For Whom Did Christ Die" 78)

And:

[The Calvinist] does not stand alone in upholding those universal aspects of the atonement… t can be shown that the Calvinist, and he alone, precisely because of his particularism is in the position to do full justice to Scriptural universalism. The particular design of the atonement and its universal design in no way contradict each other. Nor do they merely complement each other. They support and strengthen each other. In final analysis they stand and fall together. The Calvinist can be, must be, and, inconsistencies aside, will be an ardent universalist because he is a zealous particularist. (Ibid, 79)


I would love to start another thread sometime to talk about this. I would hope that we can get beyond Amyraldianism.

I would love to hear opinions. Do you think this would be a beneficial discussion? It is one that I've been wanting to have for a long time but have seemed to never get beyond accusations of Amyraldianism. Perhaps I am unclear about it and very likely, I have a lot to learn in the best way to word it. But this is why I would like to discuss. I'm really happy how this discussion ended up.

Thoughts?
 
Those quotations are reflective of the early-to-mid-20th century shift (a profound shift, as it turns out) in the CRCNA--wherein RBK was a minister--toward expanding the notion of "common grace."

It is simply a fact of history, that after the departure of the PRC congregations and ministers, there was a tremendous loss of balance within that denomination. This is not a brief for the PRC in every respect (they are capable of defending themselves anyway). But I simply point to the fact that the victory of the common-grace advocates led, not inexorably (as the PRC do argue) but certainly deliberately toward recasting not only Providence in common-grace terms, but also the Atonement in the same common-grace terms.

RBK's moderating language reflects this shift. RBK ideally represents the center-to-left slide of the CRC mainstream, as led by the faculty of Calvin Seminary and its graduates. When Hoeksema departed, even as polarizing a figure as he was, there was left no one of sufficient vision and personality to lead the holding of an orthodox center. 20th Century leaders in the CRC saw themselves and needing to break out of the "traditionalism" (wooden shoes) of their culture. Liberal theology was the rising wave of the future; K.Barth was both "Reformed" and one of the giants of the era; time to hitch up the cars to that engine.

In basic terms, Reformed theology as best represented in its mature Symbols (on trajectory with all that came before it)--both the West. Stds. and the 3FU--is a movement toward clarifying, defining, and demonstrating both the wonder in magnitude of the Atonement, and its precise LIMITS. To speak of the "universal aspects of the atonement" is sadly deformation of the tradition.

Liberalizing theology always talks of progress and evolution of our thoughts about God. Liberals accuse conservatives of simply being "traditionalists," devoted to tradition as such. Conserving ("conservative") theology in its best sense is concerned about not losing the gains of the past, not rank traditionalism.

Liberals generally (theological, political, etc.) are all about present consumption: a "use it or lose it" perspective that exalts the present at the expense of the past ("they're dead, who cares?") and the future ("its only natural for children to war with their parents; I expect and want my children to scorch the earth over my grave"). Although, in the end they expect to be adulated for a while; after all, they were "on the right side of history."

True conservationism is about living within means, valuing the deposit, seeking sustainable, organic growth. If we're going to talk about the deformation of Reformed theology, it needs to be done with respect to the Confessions and with appreciation for the historical factors that give meaning to the trends.
 
Thanks for your perspective on this. I believe Turretin and Bavinck also spoke of benefits accruing to the reprobate from the death of Christ. In my thinking there was a similarity in what they say with RBK, although it might be stated differently. Similarly, the old reformers, many of whom I quoted, speak about Christ's death procuring the offer of salvation, a benefit extended to all of mankind. Furthermore, both Shedd and Charles Hodge speak about Christ dying for all sufficiently, dying for the elect effectively, if I've read them correctly. Obviously, they lived and wrote well after the Westminster standards were formulated. In fact, Shedd wrote a defence of the standards as you probably already know.

Another interesting thing is that both Dort and Scripture itself never affirm that Christ did not die for anyone. They rather speak about the intent and purpose of His death. The formulation that Christ did not die in any way for the reprobate is only logically deduced from the positive, and, in the view of some, only ascribes one positive benefit from the atonement to the elect alone.

If the moderators don't think this an inappropriate discussion for the PB, I won't seek to continue it.

Thanks
 
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The formulation that Christ did not die in any way for the reprobate is only logically deduced from the positive, and, in the view of some, only ascribes one positive benefit from the atonement to the elect alone.

Salvation is revealed by Scripture alone. In the absence of any scriptural reference to other beneficiaries we are safe in following Scripture's silence.

The Scripture assures us that with His Son God will freely give us all things. Those who make these "things" common to elect and reprobate are in effect undermining the assurance of final salvation to the elect.
 
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