Attendance/Membership and the RPW

[Deleted member 13458]

For those that would hold to what is sometimes called “a stricter” view of the RPW. Ex. Acapella EP, no man made holy days, no responsive readings/congregational recitations, the Lord's Supper being one cup, one loaf, one table. Would you attend/become members in a church that departed from these principle, especially with regards to EP, holy days, and recitations from the congregation (assume there’s no local congregation that does hold to these principles)? And if so why?

 

[Edward]

One should worship at the best available church that they can reasonably get to. If they happen to have an organ, that's no excuse to sit at home alone. Refusal to gather with and worship with other saints is the greater sin.

Otherwise, rent a U-Haul.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

One should worship at the best available church that they can reasonably get to. If they happen to have an organ, that's no excuse to sit at home alone. Refusal to gather with and worship with other saints is the greater sin.

Otherwise, rent a U-Haul.

Why do you believe staying at home is the greater sin? And just to clarify I am not saying staying at home is good, it is not. Also attending a church that is farther away is an option (right now that is what my family and I do) but that comes with it's own problems of deep fellowship and also depending on the distance it might preclude membership.

 

[Edward]

See WCF 26-2, 27-4, and 29-4 in answer to your question.

And I would urge to also ponder on WCF 25-2 and 25-3.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

See WCF 26-2, 27-4, and 29-4 in answer to your question.

And I would urge to also ponder on WCF 25-2 and 25-3.

Thank you for this. I will look into these with specific thought to the question before replying again.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I have been a member for a while of a PCA church, which, while conservative/traditional, does practice some things I cannot in good conscience participate in (hymns, unison readings, etc.). There's no sin as long as not participating in what one thinks is not prescribed for public worship by Scripture. To say one sins by being present while these things occur but are not participated in is basically the separatist position that Presbyterians opposed in the 17th century; see James Durham's treatise concerning scandal and Rutherford against separatism. See some literature here.

 

[Dkshotwell]

One should worship at the best available church that they can reasonably get to. If they happen to have an organ, that's no excuse to sit at home alone. Refusal to gather with and worship with other saints is the greater sin.

Otherwise, rent a U-Haul.

I agree with you, except for renting a U-Haul, that is easier said than done. If one has the means, ok, but how many have the means to just up and move like that?

 

[MChase]

Hey Zach -- I'd suggest you speak to the Rev. Ericson (or another minister within our presbytery) about these things. Sitting at home and absenting oneself from the public worship of God willingly should never be an option.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

Hey Zach -- I'd suggest you speak to the Rev. Ericson (or another minister within our presbytery) about these things. Sitting at home and absenting oneself from the public worship of God willingly should never be an option.

We’ve been attending the FCC in St. Louis, Rev. Ericson knows about this. I’m just asking questions because I’m wrestling with how long we can keep this up and what is the right thing to do. Moving seems like a dream right now, every avenue that we have looked into has turned into dead ends.

 

[Edward]

but how many have the means to just up and move like that?

My moves have been of economic necessity with then searching for a church to join, so I agree with your basic point. But if you absolutely have no place to worship, moving should be a top priority.

And if worship is low on one's priority, maybe they should just take up Sunday golf.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

I have been a member for a while of a PCA church, which, while conservative/traditional, does practice some things I cannot in good conscience participate in (hymns, unison readings, etc.). There's no sin as long as not participating in what one thinks is not prescribed for public worship by Scripture. To say one sins by being present while these things occur but are not participated in is basically the separatist position that Presbyterians opposed in the 17th century; see James Durham's treatise concerning scandal and Rutherford against separatism. See some literature here.

I very much respect your position, and this is what I’m trying to wrestle with. I know that I do not sin by being present, but I worry about putting stumbling blocks before my self and my whole family by regularly attending/joining with a church more local. I am currently reading Concerning Scandal and it was one of the things Durham said in his definition of scandal about putting stumbling blocks before others that’s really got me thinking about this, and bringing this question to the PB.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I very much respect your position, and this is what I’m trying to wrestle with. I know that I do not sin by being present, but I worry about putting stumbling blocks before my self and my whole family by regularly attending/joining with a church more local. I am currently reading Concerning Scandal and it was one of the things Durham said in his definition of scandal about putting stumbling blocks before others that’s really got me thinking about this, and bringing this question to the PB.

If we are going to define every disagreement on worship if not all issues as potential placing stumbling blocks that effectively means you must find a church where everyone is in 100% agreement. Rather, there are all sorts of disadvantages we put family in, of which this is one which you have to be diligent about countering as far as instruction; but another disadvantage is the weariness of long distance travel, not being close for proper oversight and care (which is actually a real danger if not getting proper fellowship, care, etc.). So, I would weigh things looking at all these as disadvantages that you have to weigh rather than everything being a potential stumbling block that makes it a moral issue.

 

[MChase]

We’ve been attending the FCC in St. Louis, Rev. Ericson knows about this. I’m just asking questions because I’m wrestling with how long we can keep this up and what is the right thing to do. Moving seems like a dream right now, every avenue that we have looked into has turned into dead ends.

I understand that; I would seek counsel for what to do in the interim until you are able to move if that is your desire, or if you are going to stay put. The Rev. Mattull is obviously very wise counsel as well.

Worship at the Church that best worships according to the Word of God and educate your children accordingly. You might have to find some balance between going to STL and worshipping near by. Another note with the kids, there is a healthy balance between correcting things that we perceive to be errors and making the entire conversation of the ride home/Lord's Day things that we 'do differently' than others. It is not uncommon in our circles to assume that spiritual conversation is equivalent with talking about all the things we do not do on the Lord's Day; fight that urge, especially with the little ones. They seem to be awfully good at imitating our sins.

For the mean time, there may be some tradeoffs between worship practices and communion with the saints; we do not live in the best of times as confessional presbyterians. However, do assume that just because someone does not worship according to the Westminster Directory that they do not outdo us in other places. There are many who excel us in godliness that do not worship the way we do. Maybe the Lord has you here for a reason to learn and grow in other ways and/or help others in walking in the old paths.

Whatever the solution is, it is not going to be a tidy one; trust in the Lord, do what you think is best, and try to provide as much stability as you can. I hope to see you all back out to Des Moines soon, dv. Maybe we will get more of a chance to chat.

 

[CGS]

In regard to the comments about it being a greater sin to refuse to gather/worship with other saints than it is to be present during worship that has RPW violations...would it be appropriate to temporarily refuse to gather for a just a limited time. For example, if one's conscience is especially grieved during the Advent/Christmas season would it be appropriate to refuse to gather just for those 4 Sundays of Advent and any Christmas/Christmas Eve services?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

If I were you, I would at least be worshipping and gathering with Christians somewhere until you find the right church. As you know, there are so many benefits to connecting with the body of Christ that outweigh you missing them all because of disagreements over non-essential dogmatics. The Bible doesn't regulate how often we should gather, so it's not a law that we need to be there every week, but we are called to not forsake being together, and being with other Christians is the healthiest place to be. As said above, I would either move to the right church for you, or be willing to compromise and still be fully invested in your local church. Another thing is, if you aren't gathering, you are depriving your local church from your specific spiritual gifting. Christ's body needs your part, as small or big as it may be. Blessings!

 

[Deleted member 13458]

See WCF 26-2, 27-4, and 29-4 in answer to your question.

And I would urge to also ponder on WCF 25-2 and 25-3.

Thank you again for giving me some other angles to think about. And keeping yourself from the public administration of the means of grace is grievous. Doing so for a long period or indefinitely is unthinkable. And that is why I’m wrestling through these questions. Right now my family and I attend church a far bit ways from us, and have benefited greatly from it, but I’m concerned that there may come a point where financially we can no longer regularly attend.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

If I were you, I would at least be worshipping and gathering with Christians somewhere until you find the right church. As you know, there are so many benefits to connecting with the body of Christ that outweigh you missing them all because of disagreements over non-essential dogmatics. The Bible doesn't regulate how often we should gather, so it's not a law that we need to be there every week, but we are called to not forsake being together, and being with other Christians is the healthiest place to be. As said above, I would either move to the right church for you, or be willing to compromise and still be fully invested in your local church. Another thing is, if you aren't gathering, you are depriving your local church from your specific spiritual gifting. Christ's body needs your part, as small or big as it may be. Blessings!

I don’t know if this is in response to the other question on the thread specifically about temporarily absenting yourself or to my question. But the last point you made about depriving the local body of your spiritual gifts is definitely an interesting point. Will have to give that much thought.

 

[CGS]

As you know, there are so many benefits to connecting with the body of Christ that outweigh you missing them all because of disagreements over non-essential dogmatics.

Are you referring to disagreements over the regulative principle of worship, purity of worship issues, etc.? If so, why would these be considered non-essential? Calvin ranked worship as first in importance over salvation and placed the proper worship of God - not justification - as the primary issue of the Reformation:

"If it be inquired, then, by what things chiefly; the Christian religion has a standing existence amongst us, and maintains its truth, it will be found that the following two not only occupy the principal place, but comprehend under them all the other parts, and consequently the whole substance of Christianity, viz., a knowledge, first, of the mode in which God is duly worshipped; and, secondly, of the source from which salvation is to be obtained." - John Calvin

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Are you referring to disagreements over the regulative principle of worship, purity of worship issues, etc.? If so, why would these be considered non-essential? Calvin ranked worship as first in importance over salvation and placed the proper worship of God - not justification - as the primary issue of the Reformation:

"If it be inquired, then, by what things chiefly; the Christian religion has a standing existence amongst us, and maintains its truth, it will be found that the following two not only occupy the principal place, but comprehend under them all the other parts, and consequently the whole substance of Christianity, viz., a knowledge, first, of the mode in which God is duly worshipped; and, secondly, of the source from which salvation is to be obtained." - John Calvin

Hi. From the original post. "Acapella EP, no man made holy days, no responsive readings/congregational recitations, the Lord's Supper being one cup, one loaf, one table."

Yes I think these are non-essential and there is freedom over such matters. Good biblical cases can be made to justify or reject all of those, from people who love the Word.

I don’t know if this is in response to the other question on the thread specifically about temporarily absenting yourself or to my question. But the last point you made about depriving the local body of your spiritual gifts is definitely an interesting point. Will have to give that much thought.

Lol sorry I think I misunderstood you. I don't know why but I was thinking you were pondering whether or not to go to church at all because that church had different practices than you prefer. I think I was way off

 

[Polanus1561]

Not an EP-er. But I have come to realize that if you truly believe hymns are strange fire (according to your strong conviction). Then I can see why people would want to stay at home. Won't want to be a target of God's wrath.

(again, assuming from a strong EP-er's POV that hymns = Lev. 10).

Perhaps EP-ers are inconsistent if they don't mind being in a hymn church. Then they don't truly really believe hymns = strange fire. Which is good from my POV.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

Lol sorry I think I misunderstood you. I don't know why but I was thinking you were pondering whether or not to go to church at all because that church had different practices than you prefer. I think I was way off

It is okay. I kind of am asking about that although that is not currently our situation. Right now we are attending church a far bit away from us, but financially there may come a point in the future where we may not be able to, and although it is our desire to move it may be many years before we can. So we are wrestling with attending a church closer, but it would be difficult for us.

I do want to say that I don’t view these issues as preferences. There are things in worship I would prefer but would not make me question attending a church ( the KJV, the 1650 psalter, using thee and thou in prayer). But the things I mentioned in my first post I believe displease the Lord when we depart from them, so it would be difficult to witness week in and week out. But I also know the Lord is displeased if we absent ourselves from worship, and with division in the church, so we must weigh everything.

 

[C4MERON]

( the KJV, the 1650 psalter, using thee and thou in prayer)

Curious, why using thee and thou in prayer?

 

[Andres]

For those that would hold to what is sometimes called “a stricter” view of the RPW. Ex. Acapella EP, no man made holy days, no responsive readings/congregational recitations, the Lord's Supper being one cup, one loaf, one table. Would you attend/become members in a church that departed from these principle, especially with regards to EP, holy days, and recitations from the congregation (assume there’s no local congregation that does hold to these principles)? And if so why?

No I'd relocate. Nothing is more important than worshipping God as He commands and being discipled in a local church.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." - Matt. 6:33

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Relocating is something to seriously pray about and seek. It's one of the ways that we can strengthen churches which are naturally small at this time, and in need of families to come and help in building up Zion.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

Curious, why using thee and thou in prayer?

Dr. William Young’s article on prayer is what convinced me that it is the proper way to address the Lord, at least in English.

Address to God in Prayer

William Young Young argues for addressing God with the language of ‘thou’ and ‘thee’. From The Presbyterian Reformed Magazine, Summer, 1989. HT: The Puritan Board &nb…

reformedbooksonline.com

 

[Deleted member 13458]

No I'd relocate. Nothing is more important than worshipping God as He commands and being discipled in a local church.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." - Matt. 6:33

Relocating is something to seriously pray about and seek. It's one of the ways that we can strengthen churches which are naturally small at this time, and in need of families to come and help in building up Zion.

This is our desire, but providentially we have not been able to do so so far and it’s looking like it could be quite a few years before it would be possible. When I take that into account and my love for my home town and the family that we have here, I can’t help but wonder if the Lord wants us here. But only time will tell what the Lord has in store for us.

 

[Dkshotwell]

Dr. William Young’s article on prayer is what convinced me that it is the proper way to address the Lord, at least in English.

Address to God in Prayer

William Young Young argues for addressing God with the language of ‘thou’ and ‘thee’. From The Presbyterian Reformed Magazine, Summer, 1989. HT: The Puritan Board &nb…

reformedbooksonline.com

I find that article wholly unconvincing. Stating that the use of the word "you" in addressing God leads to the feminization and secularization of the faith is, quite frankly, laughable.

 

[Deleted member 13458]

I find that article wholly unconvincing. Stating that the use of the word "you" in addressing God leads to the feminization and secularization of the faith is, quite frankly, laughable.

‘To yield to the demand for “contemporary language” is to join with those who avowedly secularize religion. An extreme form of this tendency is seen in the feminist demand for “inclusive language.”’

I believe you miss understood his point. He’s saying that the argument to use “you” in addressing God just because the change has already taken place, or to get with the times are the same types of arguments used by those who secularize religion and in its most extreme form is the same type used by feminists to argue for inclusive language.

The whole point of the article is to say that we shouldn’t change the way in which we address God just because language changes in the culture.

 

[CGS]

Good biblical cases can be made to justify or reject all of those, from people who love the Word.

I think this is debatable. For example, what is the "good biblical case" (using the regulative principle) for churches observing Christmas/Advent? I have heard arguments based on the normative principle, sentimentalism/emotional attachment, tradition, etc. but I don't recall ever hearing a good biblical case for Christmas/Advent based on the regulative principle. If there is one, I would definitely be interested in hearing it. And lots of people who love the Word have really bad theology (e.g. Arminianism) and worship practices.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Moderating. I think in service to the OP, questions on addressing God in prayer, holy days, or other of those things mentioned, if one wants to discuss them, should be on their own new threads. Keep this thread for addressing the question in the OP. And note, the audience to answer was restricted to those holding a so called strict view of the regulative principle (and if you question the definition in the OP; start a thread on that).